Leaving Mormonism

[RebeccaJ]

Separate faith from reason? Of course not! I would never dream of it. Nor was what I shared with you an accusation against you. When you can recognize that perhaps you will be able to see the truth behind the statement.

Now we need decoder rings.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Of course questions are not evil. Particularly when approached in the right manner. I’ve had many questions but I search patiently for answers, and answers come. I do not fear looking into our history just as I hope you do not fear looking into the history of Catholicism. However, it is important not to form hasty judgments and start a “search” with ones mind already made up. This is what I see over and over again. In fact, some non-LDS on these forums refuse to read the BofM. It actually baffles me as to why they do not. For some reason they brand it as evil without even looking into it. Now that would be an interesting discussion!

The issue comes when people do not search in the right light. They only turn to sources which seek to tear down the truth, and unsurprisingly, they find they are left with nothing but bitterness in return. As Neil A. Maxwell once said, "Some insist upon studying the Church only through the eyes of its defectors—like interviewing Judas to understand Jesus. Defectors always tell us more about themselves than about that from which they have departed” (BYU Speaches, “All Hell is Moved”, Nov 8, 1977). I say, search in the right light, study both sides on an issue, and search deeply.

Let me ask you a question Marie. Would you suggest people read The Great Apostasy by James E. Talmage to understand Catholicism? What if that was the only book they read on the subject, or perhaps they read a few books but all by those who had left the faith?

I’m calling you out on receiving answers. Placated, sure, answered, no.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I said questions are not evil. Questions are useful and good. However, questions do not need to spring from doubt. Questions imply unknowns, not doubt. Doubt is a frame of mind and where doubt is there faith is not. As Christ said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matt 14:31). When we use doubt as the starting point we seek in darkness and confusion.

Well, unless you or any other LDS person is walking on water, then you’re just talking about the kind of faith that every Christian understands as the example. Myself, I’ve never met anyone of such a faith that they could walk on water.

So let’s bring it down to the reality of our everyday experience, ok?

When someone claiming to speak for God, as a prophet, is shown to have just made stuff up…ding ding ding! Why would you NOT doubt that they are speaking for God?

Wake up!

 

[Porknpie]

Just to re-emphasize to others who may not understand that dynamics of how Mormonism, in and of itself, causes it’s own crisis of faith for it’s people. Like iepuras says, it’s not outside forces. LDS doctrine and how it is playing out is basically a house of cards. It cannot withstand facts and truth. It causes it’s own crisis.

I related this quote to two Mormon missionaries who visited me 3x over the Holidays. An excerpt from the article is below. I make the point that I agree with this point: either LDS is true or the Catholic Church is true. One of the two missionaries had heard this before. I bring this up so if one of them ever leaves the LDS Church, perhaps they’ll remember that the alternative is Catholicism and not atheism.

Here’s the link from LDS.org on the true church.

I think if people were just open-minded, it wouldn’t be so hard for them to know where to find the truth. Of course, we take the Bible as our guide to help us in our search for the truth. I have always been greatly impressed by the experience that Elder Orson F. Whitney had. He was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, and he related this in one of our conferences. I would like to read it to you. He said:

“Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: ‘You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.’” (LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder [Deseret Book Co., 1950], pp. 3–4.)

As we have covered many times, there never was an great apostasy in the Church. Hence, no need for a restoration. We see the same faith - all the sacraments throughout the world in the early Church. Either Christ was a poor teacher, all the disciples were poor listeners or Catholicism is right.

 

[Porknpie]

I have been LDS and I have been Catholic. Both organizations fall into that category.

Miss hearing you Tex

 

[TexanKnight]

Well, unless you or any other LDS person is walking on water, then you’re just talking about the kind of faith that every Christian understands as the example. Myself, I’ve never met anyone of such a faith that they could walk on water.

So let’s bring it down to the reality of our everyday experience, ok?

When someone claiming to speak for God, as a prophet, is shown to have just made stuff up…ding ding ding! Why would you NOT doubt that they are speaking for God?

Wake up!

Could you be more specific? When you are talking about making things up, are you talking about the selling of indulgences? Vatican II? Or something else entirely?

 

[Janderich]

Now we need decoder rings.

All you need is the spirit of truth (John 16:13) and the spirit of understanding (Isaiah 11:2). It has not been hid in a corner nor buried under the sea.

 

[Janderich]

Well, unless you or any other LDS person is walking on water, then you’re just talking about the kind of faith that every Christian understands as the example. Myself, I’ve never met anyone of such a faith that they could walk on water.

So let’s bring it down to the reality of our everyday experience, ok?

Rebecca,
When Jesus asks why we doubt it is not limited to only those who try to walk on water, it is to all people everywhere. James confirms it, “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind” (James 1:5-6 NIV).

Why then do you seek to foster the seed of doubt? Particularly since James testifies that in order to receive God’s word we must ask in faith and not doubt?

 

[TexanKnight]

Rebecca,
When Jesus asks why we doubt it is not limited to only those who try to walk on water, it is to all people everywhere. James confirms it, “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind” (James 1:5-6 NIV).

Why then do you seek to foster the seed of doubt? Particularly since James testifies that in order to receive God’s word we must ask in faith and not doubt?

Apparently, people only accept the Answer you get from God if THEY think it is the right Answer…

 

[LivingWaters7]

For me, it was questioning certain claims and ideas that led me to extensive study on both sides (looking at the critical side after initially solely reading various apologetic and official LDS works), and asking God fervently in prayer daily to guide me to the Truth, that ultimately led to my return to the Catholic Church. I certainly did not want to leave the LDS church, and even looked for ways to shelve the questions that I had (as I had been doing) so that I could remain. However, I knew that I could not ignore the “pull” that I was feeling, coupled with the scriptural and historical study that I did that convinced me that the Catholic Church really is the Church established by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, that a total apostasy, a loss, of Jesus Christ’s Kingdom on earth was not predicted in the Bible, and that the Church has always been here, with authority given her by Jesus Christ. I knew that although we as humans are not always faithful, Jesus Christ, as God, is always faithful, and guides and protects His own Body, with the Holy Spirit leading it into all Truth. Most importantly, I could no longer deny the Eucharist, so readily apparent in the New Testament, testified to by multiple Jewish precedents in the Old Testament, and evident anciently throughout the world.

 

[TexanKnight]

For me, it was questioning certain claims and ideas that led me to extensive study on both sides (looking at the critical side after initially solely reading various apologetic and official LDS works), and asking God fervently in prayer daily to guide me to the Truth, that ultimately led to my return to the Catholic Church. I certainly did not want to leave the LDS church, and even looked for ways to shelve the questions that I had (as I had been doing) so that I could remain. However, I knew that I could not ignore the “pull” that I was feeling, coupled with the scriptural and historical study that I did that convinced me that the Catholic Church really is the Church established by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, that a total apostasy, a loss, of Jesus Christ’s Kingdom on earth was not predicted in the Bible, and that the Church has always been here, with authority given her by Jesus Christ. I knew that although we as humans are not always faithful, Jesus Christ, as God, is always faithful, and guides and protects His own Body, with the Holy Spirit leading it into all Truth. Most importantly, I could no longer deny the Eucharist, so readily apparent in the New Testament, testified to by multiple Jewish precedents in the Old Testament, and evident anciently throughout the world.

And if someone prays just as fervently and just as hard as you did and receives the pull elsewhere?

Are they wrong?

 

[Matthew_Light]

And if someone prays just as fervently and just as hard as you did and receives the pull elsewhere?

Are they wrong?

Great question.

This is why I cannot accept the idea that “We have the truth and everyone else is following falsehood”.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Great question.

This is why I cannot accept the idea that “We have the truth and everyone else is following falsehood”.

I don’t accept that idea either. As Catholics, although we believe that we have the fulness of Truth, we also believe that truths can be found in other faiths, and that it is possible for non-Catholics to receive eternal life.

I only speak of what I have experienced, I make no comment as to what others believe they have experienced. I only know that I can say just as loudly as any Latter-day Saint bearing their testimony that God has witnessed to me through the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church is the Lord’s Church, and that I feel Christ’s presence in the churches, cathedrals, and basilicas where His Real Presence is found. That is part of why I left the LDS faith, as much as I loved it (and miss parts of it at times). Others may claim their own experiences.

 

[TexanKnight]

I don’t accept that idea either. As Catholics, although we believe that we have the fulness of Truth, we also believe that truths can be found in other faiths, and that it is possible for non-Catholics to receive eternal life.

I only speak of what I have experienced, I make no comment as to what others believe they have experienced. I only know that I can say just as loudly as any Latter-day Saint bearing their testimony that God has witnessed to me through the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church is the Lord’s Church, and that I feel Christ’s presence in the churches, cathedrals, and basilicas where His Real Presence is found. That is part of why I left the LDS faith, as much as I loved it (and miss parts of it at times). Others may claim their own experiences.

As can I. I can describe amazing miracles over the last 8 months.

So…are you saying I am wrong?

And if I might be right…why post the way you do?

Jesus said, “if they are ot against us, they are for us.”

Was Jesus wrong?

 

[Telstar]

Rebecca,
When Jesus asks why we doubt it is not limited to only those who try to walk on water, it is to all people everywhere. James confirms it, “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind” (James 1:5-6 NIV).

Why then do you seek to foster the seed of doubt? Particularly since James testifies that in order to receive God’s word we must ask in faith and not doubt?

Janderich,
There is a slight misdirection in what you are proposing concerning some people having doubts about certain teachings of any church. What people in this thread are talking about is not having doubts about God, but about what a church is teaching them on a certain subject. They aren’t talking about having doubts about God, Himself. If that were the case, then that scripture passage would be relevant to the subject, but it’s not. When Jesus and James speak of faith in those instances, they are referring to our faith in God. We should certainly have no doubts at all about God, although we sometimes might falter as Peter did when he walked to Jesus on the waters of Galilee. But, I think his problem was that he took his eyes off of Jesus for a moment and realized that he could not really walk on water, on his own. That’s when he began to doubt, and started to sink. When any of us take our eyes off of Jesus, we will sink, too.

But, the doubts that are being discussed here, are doubts in what is being taught by a body of men that claim to be the true church with the full authority of God. There is absolutely no sin in our questioning any of those teachings, because as John says:

[DR] 1 John 4:1 “Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

It is extremely important for someone to prudently seek answers to their questions about anything that a church teaches, especially if they have doubts about the truth of those teachings. That’s when they need to have full confidence (faith) that God will help them find the answers that they seek. If they don’t get good enough answers from the ones they ask, then perhaps it is time to look elsewhere for them, until they are confident that they’ve found the correct answers, by the grace of God.

So, please, don’t tell people that they lack true faith if they have doubts about, or ask questions of their church. They are doing exactly what John told us all to do: “test the spirits”.

 

[SteveVH]

Janderich,
There is a slight misdirection in what you are proposing concerning some people having doubts about certain teachings of any church. What people in this thread are talking about is not having doubts about God, but about what a church is teaching them on a certain subject. They aren’t talking about having doubts about God, Himself. If that were the case, then that scripture passage would be relevant to the subject, but it’s not. When Jesus and James speak of faith in those instances, they are referring to our faith in God. We should certainly have no doubts at all about God, although we sometimes might falter as Peter did when he walked to Jesus on the waters of Galilee. But, I think his problem was that he took his eyes off of Jesus for a moment and realized that he could not really walk on water, on his own. That’s when he began to doubt, and started to sink. When any of us take our eyes off of Jesus, we will sink, too.

But, the doubts that are being discussed here, are doubts in what is being taught by a body of men that claim to be the true church with the full authority of God. There is absolutely no sin in our questioning any of those teachings, because as John says:

[DR] 1 John 4:1 “Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

It is extremely important for someone to prudently seek answers to their questions about anything that a church teaches, especially if they have doubts about the truth of those teachings. That’s when they need to have full confidence (faith) that God will help them find the answers that they seek. If they don’t get good enough answers from the ones they ask, then perhaps it is time to look elsewhere for them, until they are confident that they’ve found the correct answers, by the grace of God.

So, please, don’t tell people that they lack true faith if they have doubts about, or ask questions of their church. They are doing exactly what John told us all to do: “test the spirits”.

Thanks for bringing the correct focus back.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000, we have similar stories…I’ll message you!

eatpraylove11 and arthra… I’m sorry for the confusion this was something I just copied and pasted from this web site…reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/ujlb2/why_i_left_the_faith/

 

[SteveVH]

Great question.

This is why I cannot accept the idea that “We have the truth and everyone else is following falsehood”.

I agree with you and LW. There is truth in every religion and in every Christian denomination to one degree or another. But, we believe there is also error in every non-Christian religion and in every denomination that has separated from the Catholic Church. Aside from the errors, it is not so much what they have that is the issue (much of it very good), it is what they don’t have (i.e. sacraments, valid priesthood, infallible magisterium, etc.) that is the issue.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Could you be more specific? When you are talking about making things up, are you talking about the selling of indulgences? Vatican II? Or something else entirely?

Nice dodge.

 

[SteveVH]

And if someone prays just as fervently and just as hard as you did and receives the pull elsewhere?

Are they wrong?

Well, obviously at least one is wrong. Truth cannot conflict with truth so what you have in the case of two people praying “fervently” and each being pulled in different directions theologically is an objective demonstration that one or both are not hearing the answer to their prayers correctly. That is why the “burning in the bosom”, or our internal feelings, whether Catholic or Mormon, is not a reliable method of determining truth. It also requires reason and a rational mind as well as spiritual discernment.