Leaving Mormonism

[RebeccaJ]

All you need is the spirit of truth (John 16:13) and the spirit of understanding (Isaiah 11:2). It has not been hid in a corner nor buried under the sea.

Here is what I see. People making up “truth”, claiming what is made up came from God, then saying, “Don’t ask me, ask God.”

You’ve thrown reason out the window. If someone steals from me, and I catch them red handed, am I going to pray, asking God if that person really did steal from me? I don’t think so.

 

[TexanKnight]

Nice dodge.

No…the dodge was you not responding to my question for clarification

Noted

 

[TexanKnight]

Well, obviously at least one is wrong. Truth cannot conflict with truth so what you have in the case of two people praying “fervently” and each being pulled in different directions theologically is an objective demonstration that one or both are not hearing the answer to their prayers correctly. That is why the “burning in the bosom”, or our internal feelings, whether Catholic or Mormon, is not a reliable method of determining truth. It also requires reason and a rational mind as well as spiritual discernment.

True. Luckily, I did not rely on that. But…the miracles that have happened over the last 8 months…just wow…

 

[SteveVH]

True. Luckily, I did not rely on that. But…the miracles that have happened over the last 8 months…just wow…

And what miracles were those? I love miracles. Would you mind sharing those with us? If you have already done this and I missed it please direct me to that post.

Thanks.

Steve

 

[Telstar]

Thanks for bringing the correct focus back.

Thanks, Steve.

I see this tactic used so often by people, particularly among the LDS, as a means for them to dismiss another person’s questioning of the beliefs they’ve been taught as true. The accusation is made that the person must lack true faith, or must not be understanding the truth, because they are somehow defective in their methods of assessing the information presented to them. It’s extremely demeaning to tell someone that the reason they refuse to believe ‘the truth’ is because they are somehow intellectually or spiritually defective. It’s an underhanded way to try and place a guilt trip on the person that has the audacity to question the church’s authority. They do it to deflect focus and impose guilt on the person asking questions. It infers that if they have any questions or doubts, there must be something wrong with them, not the church.

 

[Telstar]

And what miracles were those? I love miracles. Would you mind sharing those with us? If you have already done this and I missed it please direct me to that post.

Thanks.

Steve

Since I’ve not been on the forums in quite a while, I would also like to hear about these miracles. I’ve always had a deep interest in hearing accounts of miracles. It’s one of the things that has always fascinated me about St. Padré Pio (my avatar picture). He was one of the most prolific miracle workers of modern times, and continues to perform them through his intercession when people pray for his help.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Since I’ve not been on the forums in quite a while, I would also like to hear about these miracles. I’ve always had a deep interest in hearing accounts of miracles. It’s one of the things that has always fascinated me about St. Padré Pio (my avatar picture). He was one of the most prolific miracle workers of modern times, and continues to perform them through his intercession when people pray for his help.

I love that. I’ll have to look more into Padre Pio, I’ve only heard his name before.

Apparently Pope Francis was involved with a purported miracle recently? Just something I heard in passing on the news.

 

[TexanKnight]

And what miracles were those? I love miracles. Would you mind sharing those with us? If you have already done this and I missed it please direct me to that post.

Thanks.

Steve

Let me describe one.

My wife got a promotion in September. It required her to move to Louisiana. Then, suddenly, in January, the company reorganized. She, with 9 other District Managers, lost her job. But, right before she signed the severance package, the VP of the company told her not to sign. He told her he had a position for her. He told her to apply for the Maryland position.

I called a lot of friends to pray for her to get that job. One of my friends is LDS. I asked him to pray for her to get the Baltimore Job. As a joke, I said, "Mike, if God wants me LDS, he will send her to Salt Lake. Mind you, I was joking. There was no open position in Salt Lake.

The very next day, the District Manager in SLC retired. The next day, my wife was hired for Salt Lake. There was none of the typical hiring process that includes a few days in Minnesota at the corporate headquarters. It is usually a 2-week process.

I made the joke about a position that was not open on Wednesday. The position opened on Thursday. By Friday, she was hired. She is now living in SLC and working a district that includes parts of Idaho, New Mexico, and Nevada.

One of the cities she has is Idaho Falls, where I received my LDS endowments in 1984, when I was LDS.

To me…that is a pretty amazing thing.

And that is just one of the experiences I am talking about.

 

[Telstar]

I love that. I’ll have to look more into Padre Pio, I’ve only heard his name before.

Apparently Pope Francis was involved with a purported miracle recently? Just something I heard in passing on the news.

Padré Pio was/is amazing. I don’t want to derail this thread too far off track, but here is a link that describes a few of his miracles. I’m sure with a little searching you can find a whole lot more.

I hadn’t heard about the Pope being involved in one of his miracles. I’ll have to do some more googling!

EDIT: My misunderstanding. I thought you meant a miracle related to Padré Pio, but it’s about the relic of St. Januarius’ blood in Naples, Italy, where the dried blood in a vial turns back into liquid. But, it’s still a miracle!

 

[SteveVH]

Let me describe one.

My wife got a promotion in September. It required her to move to Louisiana. Then, suddenly, in January, the company reorganized. She, with 9 other District Managers, lost her job. But, right before she signed the severance package, the VP of the company told her not to sign. He told her he had a position for her. He told her to apply for the Maryland position.

I called a lot of friends to pray for her to get that job. One of my friends is LDS. I asked him to pray for her to get the Baltimore Job. As a joke, I said, "Mike, if God wants me LDS, he will send her to Salt Lake. Mind you, I was joking. There was no open position in Salt Lake.

The very next day, the District Manager in SLC retired. The next day, my wife was hired for Salt Lake. There was none of the typical hiring process that includes a few days in Minnesota at the corporate headquarters. It is usually a 2-week process.

I made the joke about a position that was not open on Wednesday. The position opened on Thursday. By Friday, she was hired. She is now living in SLC and working a district that includes parts of Idaho, New Mexico, and Nevada.

One of the cities she has is Idaho Falls, where I received my LDS endowments in 1984, when I was LDS.

To me…that is a pretty amazing thing.

And that is just one of the experiences I am talking about.

That’s pretty amazing, TK, but it kind of reminds me of a person who says, okay God, if the 5th car to go past me is red I’ll know what I am suppose to do. Maybe going to SLC doesn’t mean what you think it means. Would you admit that this is a possibility?

 

[TexanKnight]

That’s pretty amazing, TK, but it kind of reminds me of a person who says, okay God, if the 5th car to go past me is red I’ll know what I am suppose to do. Maybe going to SLC doesn’t mean what you think it means. Would you admit that this is a possibility?

No.

and how dare you minimize a special occurrence to me bt comparing to the color of a car.

If you cannot see the difference, then you are afraid to look.

 

[SteveVH]

No.

and how dare you minimize a special occurrence to me to the color of a car.

You’re right, TK, I have deleted the post. My apologies. The point I was trying to make is that people misread “miracles” all the time. Christ spoke to St. Francis of Assisi from a cross and told him to rebuild his Church. Francis began repairing a run down chapel with bricks and mortar. Maybe you are suppose to be in SLC. And maybe you will find that the real reason is different from what you first thought.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic please.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I made the joke about a position that was not open on Wednesday. The position opened on Thursday. By Friday, she was hired. She is now living in SLC and working a district that includes parts of Idaho, New Mexico, and Nevada.

One of the cities she has is Idaho Falls, where I received my LDS endowments in 1984, when I was LDS.

To me…that is a pretty amazing thing.

Yeah, it is very amazing.

Maybe you are supposed to be LDS.

I think each religious community has things to offer, and some people just fit in one and not another.

In addition, all of our religious communities need spiritual and loving people with vision and understanding, who can help others in that community learn to grow closer to God. I don’t think God wants to leave any group of people who seek Him bereft of guidance and grace, and I think He works through all of the churches and congregations where people gather in sincerity and love.

 

[Marie5890]

Since I’ve not been on the forums in quite a while, I would also like to hear about these miracles. I’ve always had a deep interest in hearing accounts of miracles. It’s one of the things that has always fascinated me about St. Padré Pio (my avatar picture). He was one of the most prolific miracle workers of modern times, and continues to perform them through his intercession when people pray for his help.

Telestar, I am reading 'Padre Pio:The True Story" by C. Bernard Ruffin right now. I find it a very balanced and well researched biography> Very interesting.

 

[lax16]

Let me describe one.

My wife got a promotion in September. It required her to move to Louisiana. Then, suddenly, in January, the company reorganized. She, with 9 other District Managers, lost her job. But, right before she signed the severance package, the VP of the company told her not to sign. He told her he had a position for her. He told her to apply for the Maryland position.

I called a lot of friends to pray for her to get that job. One of my friends is LDS. I asked him to pray for her to get the Baltimore Job. As a joke, I said, "Mike, if God wants me LDS, he will send her to Salt Lake. Mind you, I was joking. There was no open position in Salt Lake.

The very next day, the District Manager in SLC retired. The next day, my wife was hired for Salt Lake. There was none of the typical hiring process that includes a few days in Minnesota at the corporate headquarters. It is usually a 2-week process.

I made the joke about a position that was not open on Wednesday. The position opened on Thursday. By Friday, she was hired. She is now living in SLC and working a district that includes parts of Idaho, New Mexico, and Nevada.

One of the cities she has is Idaho Falls, where I received my LDS endowments in 1984, when I was LDS.

To me…that is a pretty amazing thing.

And that is just one of the experiences I am talking about.

Hi Texan Knight - welcome back !

I experienced a healing of my foot (that required surgery) after going to confession at a monastery here in Utah. I could provide medical records, as well as witnesses, to my healing.

Do you believe that miracles prove that one religion is true or can different religions claim miracles that can be substantiated?

 

[Janderich]

Janderich,
There is a slight misdirection in what you are proposing concerning some people having doubts about certain teachings of any church. What people in this thread are talking about is not having doubts about God, but about what a church is teaching them on a certain subject. They aren’t talking about having doubts about God, Himself. If that were the case, then that scripture passage would be relevant to the subject, but it’s not. When Jesus and James speak of faith in those instances, they are referring to our faith in God. We should certainly have no doubts at all about God, although we sometimes might falter as Peter did when he walked to Jesus on the waters of Galilee. But, I think his problem was that he took his eyes off of Jesus for a moment and realized that he could not really walk on water, on his own. That’s when he began to doubt, and started to sink. When any of us take our eyes off of Jesus, we will sink, too.

But, the doubts that are being discussed here, are doubts in what is being taught by a body of men that claim to be the true church with the full authority of God. There is absolutely no sin in our questioning any of those teachings, because as John says:

[DR] 1 John 4:1 “Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

It is extremely important for someone to prudently seek answers to their questions about anything that a church teaches, especially if they have doubts about the truth of those teachings. That’s when they need to have full confidence (faith) that God will help them find the answers that they seek. If they don’t get good enough answers from the ones they ask, then perhaps it is time to look elsewhere for them, until they are confident that they’ve found the correct answers, by the grace of God.

So, please, don’t tell people that they lack true faith if they have doubts about, or ask questions of their church. They are doing exactly what John told us all to do: “test the spirits”.

Hi Telstar, I appreciate that your responses are always very thoughtful. In earlier posts of this same thread I clarified some of the same items you have commented on. One such is that questions are useful and good (as you said). In fact I question the scriptures and teachings from apostles and other authorities all the time. I hope you do the same with what you here in the Catholic church. Questions help us grow and learn.

My comments here have been about the mindset we enter when asking these questions. If we let doubt cloud our minds we cannot receive personal revelation, nor will we be blessed with understanding from the spirit.

Now I do not find the scriptures I have refrenced so limiting in their scope and neither should you. God does not limit his answers to questions only about himself. It would be a very sorry world if this were the case. Many questions and answers he will provide if we ask in faith. I know it.

 

[Stephen168]

Let me describe one.

My wife got a promotion in September. It required her to move to Louisiana. Then, suddenly, in January, the company reorganized. She, with 9 other District Managers, lost her job. But, right before she signed the severance package, the VP of the company told her not to sign. He told her he had a position for her. He told her to apply for the Maryland position.

I called a lot of friends to pray for her to get that job. One of my friends is LDS. I asked him to pray for her to get the Baltimore Job. As a joke, I said, "Mike, if God wants me LDS, he will send her to Salt Lake. Mind you, I was joking. There was no open position in Salt Lake.

The very next day, the District Manager in SLC retired. The next day, my wife was hired for Salt Lake. There was none of the typical hiring process that includes a few days in Minnesota at the corporate headquarters. It is usually a 2-week process.

I made the joke about a position that was not open on Wednesday. The position opened on Thursday. By Friday, she was hired. She is now living in SLC and working a district that includes parts of Idaho, New Mexico, and Nevada.

One of the cities she has is Idaho Falls, where I received my LDS endowments in 1984, when I was LDS.

To me…that is a pretty amazing thing.

And that is just one of the experiences I am talking about.

I also like the story you told of how a feeling told you to visit a hero of yours, your very devout Catholic grandfather, just days before he died. And while sitting in a Catholic Church waiting for his funeral to start, a very strong voice told you that you were home, then a feeling of peace and contentment engulfed you.

Your wife getting a job is nice too.

 

[RebeccaJ]

As someone who has lived in SLC for decades, the whole moving or living to SLC means God wants us to be Mormon causes me to go huh? Seems God wants me here, even though I question that idea! Hah. The way I see it, there is some reason for Catholics to be in SLC. Sure, the obvious reasons, but particular people, who are Catholic, are here, and we aren’t moving to Rome as a sign that God wants us to be Catholic.

 

[Porknpie]

As someone who has lived in SLC for decades, the whole moving or living to SLC means God wants us to be Mormon causes me to go huh? Seems God wants me here, even though I question that idea! Hah. The way I see it, there is some reason for Catholics to be in SLC. Sure, the obvious reasons, but particular people, who are Catholic, are here, and we aren’t moving to Rome as a sign that God wants us to be Catholic.

My observation is that Tex has a very smart and talented wife. So much so, her company desired to keep her, likely recognizing in doing so that she was the best among her ten or so peers. That is a very, very nice compliment. I’ve seen the same thing happen in my company. That a position opened up in SLC at the same time is likely a coincidence but perhaps not. Here’s why: If the company was downsizing in one area, it may very well have offered an incentive to an older employee to leave, opening up a space for someone that they wanted to keep. Again, speculation but I’ve seen it happen. The other thing that is possible - and it is happening with two people that I know right now - if the one retiring is on a defined benefit plan, an interest rate hike at the end of Q2 may be a reason for them to retire now as the retirement payout will decrease come July 1st.

So some speculation above on some points but no where do I see a God who is all Truth, entering into a covenant to lead Tex to SLT to follow a church which is not of His making.

Does God perform miracles to whomever he chooses? Yes for sure. My next door neighbor’s complete absence of advanced cancer is a case and they are not Catholic. But discerning what is a true miracle is not always easy. Sometimes we want to believe the miraculous when other reasonable earthy explanations are possible. I’ve had the same discussion with my wife, Pie on things that have happened in our life.