Leaving the Catholic Church over sexual issues

[baylee]

Because, those who follow Christ live every day striving for heaven, doing their best to avoid sin. The amount of dedicated young people in our Church today must be the best kept secret in the world!

Some of you should volunteer with the youth in your Diocese, go hang out at a FOCUS event, get to know these wonderful young people.

I guess you didn’t get my point. How do you know that they haven’t fallen …despite their dedication? You seem to think just because someone is “dedicated” that they aren’t human enough to do exactly what they never wanted to do? I don’t doubt that there are some young people who have not had sex and remain strong, but don’t fool yourself into thinking that just because you think they are dedicated and they wish to be dedicated that they have not had sex.

 

[kage_ar]

I guess you didn’t get my point. How do you know that they haven’t fallen …despite their dedication? You seem to think just because someone is “dedicated” that they aren’t human enough to do exactly what they never wanted to do? I don’t doubt that there are some young people who have not had sex and remain strong, but don’t fool yourself into thinking that just because you think they are dedicated and they wish to be dedicated that they have not had sex.

Because I know these people, we have discussions that are more than txt talk and facebook. I know that people are not animals and can control lust, I have faith in God and in my fellow Christians. Some fall, however, for those who practice the Faith, it is a small percentage.

We are in the world but NOT of the world, you cannot rely on Cosmo magazine stats to reflect what orthodox Catholics, what devout Christians are doing.

 

[PassingThru]

Because I know these people, we have discussions that are more than txt talk and facebook. I know that people are not animals and can control lust, I have faith in God and in my fellow Christians. Some fall, however, for those who practice the Faith, it is a small percentage.

We are in the world but NOT of the world, you cannot rely on Cosmo magazine stats to reflect what orthodox Catholics, what devout Christians are doing.

OK, we don’t know the kids you deal with, so we can leave it at that. What about the other 98% of kids that are not in classes like yours? (Or whatever groups you sponsor)

I think there are some points that need to be made:

Teaching kids about sex and contraception is totally independent from abstinence. Somewhere around 95% of US population believes that the first goal of sex ed should be to push kids to NOT have sex as the best possible solution. I think many here are assuming teaching about contraceptives = no abstinence message.

This is a big one. The moral superiority of abstinence only eduction does not automatically equal superior results in the real world. Very often the response to a claim of contraception performance in a given area will consist of a message concerning its morality. Many are here in this thread. These are two separate topics. Taking a moral stand is perfectly fine, but don’t use it as a statistical claim. Not logical.

Also, I don’t think it is fair, or logical, to segregate a population. Kage and others, I see you make statements like “those who practice the faith” or “devout”. What I can assume is that you are drawing a line between your “group”, and the rest. I have already said that even within your group, you will still have plenty of sexual activity, but you don’t like that response much. So lets leave that alone. That leave everyone else. Lets just say that would be the “vast majority”, as I don’t think your group (meaning devoutly religious kids), on a county or state level, would be a large percent. What is your proposed solution for these kids? Again, you are the one in charge of keeping an entire states worth of kids not pregnant and in school. Your goal is no pregnancies, not the most moral solution. Which is most probable to work?

“Some fall, however, for those who practice the Faith, it is a small percentage.” Can you point to why you say this? Where is this from?

From every report I have seen, I see a similar trend of: Slightly-moderately lower levels of sexual activity with moderately higher levels of pregnancy. This makes sense, less kids having sex, but higher chance of pregnancies as they don’t use contraception.

There are some interesting happenings though. Large portions of Texas have had a huge push for abstinence only eduction over the last 5 or so years, and apparently they are having some huge explosions in teen birth rates. I am curious to see the validity to this, as I haven’t read anything concrete.

 

[PetersKeys]

Recently I spoke with three friends of my wife’s, all of whom say they’re considering leaving the Catholic Church - two of them said they were considering the Lutheran Church.

Their reasons?

One was in opposition to the Pope’s prohibition of condoms in Africa.
The other two disagree with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality as a sin. One of her friends told me “I can’t believe in a God who tells me I have to hate my friends”.

I responded that though there are things I disagree with or struggle with in the Church, I’m not willing to leave that Grace behind for the sake of making my friends happy, and asking whether the alternative (give everyone all the condoms they need) would make for a better world. And I admonished them in seeking that they should not try to find the love of God outside of the holiness of God - and that one must be perfect to enter Heaven. One of the friends said “Who’s perfect? Why would I want to believe in a God like that?”

To me, this is a misplaced mindset - putting 21st century liberal values before Christian beliefs. To them, my mindset is the old one and needs to be brought “up to date” with the progressive world around us. In other words - modernism.

How can we, in our conversations, overcome such barriers to Christ? I would argue that these issues are peripheral - especially for those of us who are not homosexuals - especially when compared with central doctrine of salvation. Indeed, should I reject Christ altogether because my friends are left out?

I feel bad for this person because she is being led hook-line and sinker by the liberal agenda. They use very decisive guilt tactics if you believe homosexuality is a sin, or are against abortion and BC. She doesn’t realize that by confirming people in their sin or confirming sin in general that she does the people she claims to have compassion for more harm than good. If she truly did have compassion for her friends she would want them to attain heaven and would do everything in her power. Rather she is more worried about worldly acceptance, rather than true unconditional love.

 

[LilyM]

Yes we know its not working because they arent using them , they are going natural, & thats why the Birth rate among them is so high

So giving them more condoms is going to help how exactly? There’s barely a teenager in the US who doesn’t have very ready access to condoms when/if they want them, as well as a lot of education about their supposed benefits - in spite of which they don’t use them, as you’ve pointed out.

Giving 'em more isn’t going to help. They don’t use condoms basically because they don’t want to - they WANT to ‘go natural’, as you put it - for all sorts of different reasons. I’m sure you can think of a couple off the top of your head straight away, so I won’t go into them.

So tell me, are Africans so very different that they love the idea of having condoms and are guaranteed to use them whereas Americans won’t? Of course not.

 

[kage_ar]

Again, you are the one in charge of keeping an entire states worth of kids not pregnant and in school. Your goal is no pregnancies, not the most moral solution. Which is most probable to work?

Leading them to Jesus.

“Some fall, however, for those who practice the Faith, it is a small percentage.” Can you point to why you say this? Where is this from?

I am on dial up and have a limit to what I can download. You can do the online research -

Here is one report, and a person who peels away the liberal blinders can find many more that support the influence of parents, values and faith on teen sexual activity.

childtrends.org/files/SexualActivityRB.pdf

 

[jmcrae]

If we were all living in bizzaro world where condoms were moral and premarital sex was permissable, EVEN then I would not encourage anyone to depend on a condom.

The teens I know cannot properly operate a microwave to heat a cup of water or remember to floss, let alone use a condom in the correct way.

You’re right about that. Plus, I still think that it is only a minority of teenagers who are actually having sex on a regular basis. Most of the teens I know can’t even get dates. I’m not saying none of them have ever experimented, but the chances of them being in a long-term sexual relationship are pretty low.

 

[OraLabora]

They use very decisive guilt tactics if you believe homosexuality is a sin, or are against abortion and BC.

Homosexuality is not a sin. It is a condition.

 

[crazzeto]

Recently I spoke with three friends of my wife’s, all of whom say they’re considering leaving the Catholic Church - two of them said they were considering the Lutheran Church.

Their reasons?

One was in opposition to the Pope’s prohibition of condoms in Africa.
The other two disagree with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality as a sin. One of her friends told me “I can’t believe in a God who tells me I have to hate my friends”.

I responded that though there are things I disagree with or struggle with in the Church, I’m not willing to leave that Grace behind for the sake of making my friends happy, and asking whether the alternative (give everyone all the condoms they need) would make for a better world. And I admonished them in seeking that they should not try to find the love of God outside of the holiness of God - and that one must be perfect to enter Heaven. One of the friends said “Who’s perfect? Why would I want to believe in a God like that?”

To me, this is a misplaced mindset - putting 21st century liberal values before Christian beliefs. To them, my mindset is the old one and needs to be brought “up to date” with the progressive world around us. In other words - modernism.

How can we, in our conversations, overcome such barriers to Christ? I would argue that these issues are peripheral - especially for those of us who are not homosexuals - especially when compared with central doctrine of salvation. Indeed, should I reject Christ altogether because my friends are left out?

Regarding your friends who are leaving the church because of the Pope’s oppisition to the Africa condoms program, print this for them and give it to them (from the Washinton Post):

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032702825.html

When Pope Benedict XVI commented this month that condom distribution isn’t helping, and may be worsening, the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa, he set off a firestorm of protest. Most non-Catholic commentary has been highly critical of the pope. A cartoon in the Philadelphia Inquirer, reprinted in The Post, showed the pope somewhat ghoulishly praising a throng of sick and dying Africans: “Blessed are the sick, for they have not used condoms.”

Yet, in truth, current empirical evidence supports him.
…

 

[bluelake]

Recently I spoke with three friends of my wife’s, all of whom say they’re considering leaving the Catholic Church - two of them said they were considering the Lutheran Church.

Their reasons?

One was in opposition to the Pope’s prohibition of condoms in Africa.
The other two disagree with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality as a sin. One of her friends told me “I can’t believe in a God who tells me I have to hate my friends”.

I responded that though there are things I disagree with or struggle with in the Church, I’m not willing to leave that Grace behind for the sake of making my friends happy, and asking whether the alternative (give everyone all the condoms they need) would make for a better world. And I admonished them in seeking that they should not try to find the love of God outside of the holiness of God - and that one must be perfect to enter Heaven. One of the friends said “Who’s perfect? Why would I want to believe in a God like that?”

To me, this is a misplaced mindset - putting 21st century liberal values before Christian beliefs. To them, my mindset is the old one and needs to be brought “up to date” with the progressive world around us. In other words - modernism.

How can we, in our conversations, overcome such barriers to Christ? I would argue that these issues are peripheral - especially for those of us who are not homosexuals - especially when compared with central doctrine of salvation. Indeed, should I reject Christ altogether because my friends are left out?

losh,
No one is telling you to hate your friends. In fact the Bible and the Church teaches just the opposite, we are to love one another. Jesus gave His Greatest Commandment In Mt.22:36-40, Lu.10:27
Handing out condoms are given to folks that can’t controll themselves. Fornicating.
The Bible also addresses the sin of homosexuality. Rom.1:26: 24-32 There are other sins listed as well.
As our Lord said, “Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.”
We are not to judge one another. See Mt.7:1-5
It isn’t easy being a Christian. Have you heard of this saying? Pick up your cross and follow me.

God bless you,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Recently I spoke with three friends of my wife’s, all of whom say they’re considering leaving the Catholic Church - two of them said they were considering the Lutheran Church.

Their reasons?

One was in opposition to the Pope’s prohibition of condoms in Africa.
The other two disagree with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality as a sin. One of her friends told me “I can’t believe in a God who tells me I have to hate my friends”.

I responded that though there are things I disagree with or struggle with in the Church, I’m not willing to leave that Grace behind for the sake of making my friends happy, and asking whether the alternative (give everyone all the condoms they need) would make for a better world. And I admonished them in seeking that they should not try to find the love of God outside of the holiness of God - and that one must be perfect to enter Heaven. One of the friends said “Who’s perfect? Why would I want to believe in a God like that?”

To me, this is a misplaced mindset - putting 21st century liberal values before Christian beliefs. To them, my mindset is the old one and needs to be brought “up to date” with the progressive world around us. In other words - modernism.

How can we, in our conversations, overcome such barriers to Christ? I would argue that these issues are peripheral - especially for those of us who are not homosexuals - especially when compared with central doctrine of salvation. Indeed, should I reject Christ altogether because my friends are left out?

losh,
In my last response to your thoughts, I forgot to ask you, Are you going to go to another Church? All Christian Churches teach `'The Ten Commandments ’ One of which is, “thou shalt not commit adultery.”
I’ll leave you with a very frightening passage found in God’s Word, See Heb.10:26
I’ll pray for you.
May the Holy Spirit guide you as you grow in Christ Jesus.

God bless you,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Homosexuality is not a sin. It is a condition.

Ora,
Please read Rom.1:24-32 1Cor.6:9-11,
yes it is a sin, but not the only sin listed in the scriptures I listed for you to read , if you wish too.

bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Something of an update here …

I talked with one of these friends again at a holiday party. She was very defensive about her Lutheranism and described herself as Catholic (because she prays the Rosary) even though she volunteers on two committees at the Lutheran church, sends her three kids to the Lutheran school, teaches VBS and hasn’t been to Mass in two years. But she remains Catholic because she prays the Rosary and hasn’t ‘officially’ converted yet.
I suggested (tactlessly) that she’s a Lutheran with Catholic nostalgia and that’s fine but call a spade a spade. That got a small beratement from my wife and an agreement going forward not to have too many martinis at these sort of things.

losh,
Did you ask her which Lutheran church she went to?
ELCA is very liberal. They allow practicing homosexuals to receive Holy Communion.
btw, there are many non-catholics that pray the Rosary. It is a scriptural prayer . Look into this yourself.

bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Are you aware of the various diseases that are not stopped by the use of condoms?

HPV or Human Papillomavirus a.k.a genital warts is a disease transmitted by skin to skin contact. Unless you are suggesting people use full body condoms there ain’t no condom that will prevent HPV transmission. Genital warts - now there is a pretty picture to imagine when a young man asks a young woman for her hand in marriage.

There are more than 40 types of HPV some of which cause cervical cancer.

Chlamydia is caused by a bacteria and you might not know you have it. The CDC recommends abstaining from sex as the best way to prevent this infection. They state that condoms can reduce the risk of transmission, but are not 100% effective. This disease can lead to premature deliveries and babies can be born with infections in their eyes and resiratory tracts. It is the leading cause of infant pneumonia.

Chlamydia shows no symptons in 75% of the women that have it. It can cause a woman to become sterile. How about that? Now would a woman really want to risk sterility because of condoms? Time to get married after a youthful life of “free love” and she might not be able to have a family. I know I would not be comfortable telling someone to use a condom with this basic knowledge.

Men, Chlamydia will give you a burning when urinating, but the good news is that it is uncommon to have pain or swelling in the testicles.

Those are only 2 of the many STDs.

God bless

p.s. Oral sex? Chlamydia is found in throats, too. Go CONDOMS!!

Stop sinning and you won’t need condoms.

bluelake

 

[OraLabora]

Ora,
Please read Rom.1:24-32 1Cor.6:9-11,
yes it is a sin, but not the only sin listed in the scriptures I listed for you to read , if you wish too.

bluelake

The passages you referred to describe homosexual acts, which I agree are sinful.

The state of being homosexual is not per se sinful. Acting on it though, and engaging in homosexual activity, is sinful.

 

[kage_ar]

Stop sinning and you won’t need condoms.

bluelake

THAT should be on a bumper sticker!

 

[OraLabora]

THAT should be on a bumper sticker!

Indeed.

And here’s one on HPV. The media makes a big fuss HPV causing cervical cancer, but a little known fact, it also causes penile cancer.

Maybe THAT should be on bumper stickers too. Nothing better to put fear of God in a young man than the possibility of losing his penis.

 

[Lauds]

Man worships his penis

 

[Major_Tom]

Stop sinning and you won’t need condoms.

bluelake

stop sinning and you won’t be human.

 

[jmcrae]

stop sinning and you won’t be human.

I disagree - sin takes away from our humanity; it doesn’t add to it. The less we sin, the more human we are. Jesus was the perfect human being, and I hope you don’t think He ever sinned.