Leaving the Church

[ThundersnowIV]

Hmm… If there is no formal process available, you could always do something to get yourself excommunicated. It would however be much simpler to just walk away. I’m unaware of any downside to that.

It is considered a serious sin to leave if you believe it is the true Church.

 

[Kielbasi]

This seems more like membership in two parishes … like they would not accept someone for membership in the Wesleyan Church in "X"Town or at "Z "Address if the person was a member of any other Church - Wesleyan, Baptist, Methodist in "Y"Town or located at "S"Address …

Church membership in non-Catholic circles in usually more local affiliation rather than Universal in faith … just a thought … in that case a letter to your parish terminating your registration at that location with an acknowledgement response back should suffice for this Wesleyan Church … as someone else suggested

I agree that the OP’s problem is with the local wesleyan believers, not the Wesleyan Church as a whole. But its probably more due to the idea that they aren’t sure he’s going to go back to the Catholic Church or go somewhere else, so they really don’t want to re-admit him back until they are sure he is back. The “letter of resignation” suggestion was probably though of on the fly.

 

[setarcos]

True. The Catholic Church affirms this teaching. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 817 and 846-848.

I’m afraid not. No one is saved by walking through any door, Catholic or otherwise. As to Catholics believing that all other “doors” are the “wrong ones,” see the cited CCC paragraphs cited above.

It is always possible to walk out a door that is always open, and the door to the Catholic Church is just that. Everyone’s salvation is dependent on being in the state of saving grace–and that is not limited to the Catholic Church, as the Church herself teaches.

It is the mark St. Paul talked about:

Eph.1[13] In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph.4[30] And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit seals us against the “day of redemption” and gives us the power to obtain and retain God’s saving graces. It’s up to us to take advantage of those graces and grow in holiness. Thus, anyone can lose his salvation by mortally sinning and thus cutting himself off from the love of God, his grace, and the Holy Spirit’s seal upon our souls.

Certainly such a person can be damned. See my last answer above.

You ask questions assuming you know the answers, but you don’t, my friend. You cannot possibly know what millions of Catholics are doing by participating in the sacraments, which are not empty rituals but the means of saving graces.

You may want to research Catholic teachings before telling Catholics that their practices are useless and mean nothing whether or not they are practiced, don’t you?

Indeed. Me too.

Thank you so much for your enlightening replies to my statements. Perhaps the fires of wisdom within me can be rekindled.
That being said….I must ask you to forgive me my inability to communicate my ideas clearly. Your reply leads me to believe you think I’m talking about a literal door, physical, spiritual or otherwise. The door is meant to be the delineating entryway between being in a state of damnation and being saved. As for the cited CCC paragraphs you’ve referred me to, it is or was at the time clear what the man who made the quote meant. He meant exactly what he said….there is no salvation outside the Catholic church…period. Of course the times they be ah changing…so perhaps his meaning has been “re-interpreted” in light of the new spiritual maturity of the Catholic Church.
How is it that the church teaches salvation outside the Catholic Church? In so much as such things are only possible if the “outside” is in total communion with its teachings on salvation?
As for St. Paul’s talking about the “seal” of the Holy Spirit giving us the power to obtain and retain God’s saving graces is it not true that such power is open to non-believers in that Gods saving graces are open to all? They are open to all before the seal is given. So it would seem the seal does not open the way to the saving Graces. As for giving power to retain his graces have I not pointed out that believers can become non-believers over time making retention a meaningless proposition? So we have salvation open to all…not just those sealed, and we have being sealed no assurance of being able to retain salvation. Have we misunderstood the meaning of the seal? Apparently those who are sealed can be damned and those who are not sealed are damned. What is the difference to the damned?
You give me greater credit than I deserve by stating I think I know the answers because of the questions I ask. You have it backwards. I ask questions because I seek the answers that elude me. I seek the truth of God not the pride of man having ready-made answers not easily refuted.
I don’t know what millions Of Catholics are doing in their participation nor, you are right, can I possible know. I don’t need to know. I never claimed to know what every Catholics intentions are. I merely made a statistical observation about the odds of every single one of the billion + Catholics performing the rituals for the same reasons. Nor did I ever say that Catholic practices are useless and mean nothing. I think perhaps you’ve too readily jumped from a discussion of the original proposition to an aggressive defense of an imaginary threat. I fear I have insulted you by asking questions in the wrong manner or making observations with a perceived arrogance. If so please accept my apologies .
May God bless your remaining days in this world

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

While there is no way to remove the mark from one’s soul for being baptized in the Catholic Church, there was a method by which one could formally defect from the Church between 1983 and 2009.

There was an item in the Church’s 1983 Code of Canon Law which allowed one to not be bound by the canonical form for marriage if they had formally defected from the Church. In 2006 guidelines were put in place as to proper formal defection. There have been groups outside of the Church who were set up to ease the process for those wishing to formally defect from the Church. In 2009 with the release of Omnium in mentum that defection process was removed.

Here is a blog entry from a Canon lawyer regarding the matter.

I hope that helps.

 

[setarcos]

While there is no way to remove the mark from one’s soul for being baptized in the Catholic Church, there was a method by which one could formally defect from the Church between 1983 and 2009.

Please sir, might you enlighten me as to why there is no way to remove the seal? Providing of course you tell me what the seal is which may have a direct bearing on your reasons. Thank you so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut into this matter.

 

[His_helpmeet]

Mike from NJ;14503766:

While there is no way to remove the mark from one’s soul for being baptized in the Catholic Church, there was a method by which one could formally defect from the Church between 1983 and 2009.

Please sir, might you enlighten me as to why there is no way to remove the seal? Providing of course you tell me what the seal is which may have a direct bearing on your reasons. Thank you so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut into this matter.

Baptism places an indelible mark on the soul because it removes original sin - the loss of divine life that occurred because of the sin of Adam and Eve. (Original sin is not a personal act; it is a state that occurred because of Adam and Eve.)

St. Paul wrote many times about Baptism being necessary for salvation and about being baptized into the death of Jesus.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Mike from NJ;14503766:

While there is no way to remove the mark from one’s soul for being baptized in the Catholic Church, there was a method by which one could formally defect from the Church between 1983 and 2009.

Please sir, might you enlighten me as to why there is no way to remove the seal? Providing of course you tell me what the seal is which may have a direct bearing on your reasons. Thank you so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut into this matter.

Sorry about that. I should have phrased it, “While Catholics believe there is no way to…”

 

[setarcos]

setarcos;14507012:

Baptism places an indelible mark on the soul because it removes original sin - the loss of divine life that occurred because of the sin of Adam and Eve. (Original sin is not a personal act; it is a state that occurred because of Adam and Eve.)

St. Paul wrote many times about Baptism being necessary for salvation and about being baptized into the death of Jesus.

Thank you so much for your enlightened reply. Tell me though, how is it that if the indelible mark on our soul represents a removal of original sin by baptism, why would Christ be necessary to our salvation?

 

[esieffe]

Its my understanding that salvation is always open to all. You are saved when you walk through the “door”. Whether that door is Catholicism, or some other belief. Leaving aside the fact that obviously Catholics would regard any “door” other than theirs the wrong one.
The question is…having walked through that door is it possible to walk out again? Would walking out that door be equated with renouncing Catholic belief? Salvation may happen with entering the Catholic belief system but the possibility of salvation doesn’t begin there. The possibility exists as an open invitation to everyone. Even those outside the church.
What is the purpose of this indelible mark on your soul if it does not guarantee salvation?
Would you believe that anyone who has had communion, confirmation and the sacraments of baptism cannot be damned? Hundreds of millions of Catholics and simply by carrying the name and doing the rituals you will be saved? I personally find that hard to believe. Every one of those rituals can be performed while ignorant or indifferent of their meaning. Then when understanding catches up to action they may be renounced as false. What then difference is there between that done in ignorance within the Church and that not done yet out of ignorance outside the Church? These things leave no more indelible mark on your soul than belief in them would allow. And if you renounce your belief? What then? Are you renouncing that indelible mark? Like a tattoo scrubbed away leaving no remnant of its former existence other than scarred skin? Of course I say these things in ignorance, not yet with understanding.

May God bless us and save me from myself.

Be careful, these ideas of yours were only formed three or four hundred years ago.

 

[Della]

His_helpmeet;14507184:

Thank you so much for your enlightened reply. Tell me though, how is it that if the indelible mark on our soul represents a removal of original sin by baptism, why would Christ be necessary to our salvation?

It is only through Christ’s redemption that baptism has the power to remove original sin. Baptism isn’t apart from Christ. As one of the seven sacraments, it is available to us only through to his redemptive act on the cross.

 

[setarcos]

Be careful, these ideas of yours were only formed three or four hundred years ago.

Thank you gentle teacher for forewarning me of my dangerous disposition. I’m not sure if the fact that these ideas are three or four hundred years old is an endorsement of their validity or a condemnation of their veracity?

 

[setarcos]

setarcos;14510062:

It is only through Christ’s redemption that baptism has the power to remove original sin. Baptism isn’t apart from Christ. As one of the seven sacraments, it is available to us only through to his redemptive act on the cross.

I am so appreciative of your quick and erudite reply, thank you so much. I get the gist of the concept of redemption however some things still confuse me. Am I to understand that through Christ’s redemptive sacrifice Baptism has been given the power to make me a perfect human again? As Adam was in the beginning? Without sin and not subjected to death? Steering back to the original premise though…I would say Baptism can be undertaken under a pretense of sincerity. I can hardly believe that insincerity would lead to an indelible mark or seal from the holy spirit. I believe the bible says as much. So we are back to asking what is the nature of the mark or seal if the act does not necessarily lead to it? In this way the act itself cannot be the seal or indelible mark. Nor can it be the inevitable cause of the mark. This follows along the lines of the mistaken belief that many criminals have of no conscience when committing sin since as long as one simply goes through the process of confessing ones sins one is forgiven and the process repeats. Of course they are playing the odds of going to hell if the end comes before the confession but after the crime is committed. Making the whole thing a probabilistic farce. So Is it belief in the ritual that makes the difference? If so then once belief has been removed has the seal? If belief is the seal then the seal cant be indelible since one can lose belief. That or the seal or mark was never gained through the actions performed if one never had the belief in them.
May God enlighten the murky depths of my confusion through your insight.

 

[Della]

Della;14510167:

I am so appreciative of your quick and erudite reply, thank you so much. I get the gist of the concept of redemption however some things still confuse me. Am I to understand that through Christ’s redemptive sacrifice Baptism has been given the power to make me a perfect human again? As Adam was in the beginning? Without sin and not subjected to death? Steering back to the original premise though…I would say Baptism can be undertaken under a pretense of sincerity. I can hardly believe that insincerity would lead to an indelible mark or seal from the holy spirit. I believe the bible says as much. So we are back to asking what is the nature of the mark or seal if the act does not necessarily lead to it? In this way the act itself cannot be the seal or indelible mark. Nor can it be the inevitable cause of the mark. This follows along the lines of the mistaken belief that many criminals have of no conscience when committing sin since as long as one simply goes through the process of confessing ones sins one is forgiven and the process repeats. Of course they are playing the odds of going to hell if the end comes before the confession but after the crime is committed. Making the whole thing a probabilistic farce. So Is it belief in the ritual that makes the difference? If so then once belief has been removed has the seal? If belief is the seal then the seal cant be indelible since one can lose belief. That or the seal or mark was never gained through the actions performed if one never had the belief in them.
May God enlighten the murky depths of my confusion through your insight.

Baptism removes the stain of original sin and marks the soul so that it is receptive to the graces given through the sacraments, and sensitive to the movement of the Holy Spirit, but the consequences of Adam’s fall are still present. Those are a corrupted nature, intellectual darkness, and a weakened will. Of course, each of these are more pronounced in some than in others and the grace poured out on the world through Christ’s redemption may act on the soul of the unbaptized, leading such persons to the truth of Christ. This is all covered in the Catechism.

Confession of mortal sins reinstates saving grace. God isn’t out to get us or catch us with technicalities, rather he gives us, through baptism and the other sacraments of initiation, the grace to remain faithful. We need to avail ourselves of the sacraments, engage in a life of prayer, and of service to God and others in order to remain in God’s grace and not presume upon his mercy by living a life of dissipation and then expecting God will overlook our sin. It’s both/and–God making his grace available and us making use of those graces in all the ways God provides–which is so abundant no one can make any excuse before God for being lax or deliberately sinful.

 

[His_helpmeet]

Della;14510167:

I am so appreciative of your quick and erudite reply, thank you so much. I get the gist of the concept of redemption however some things still confuse me. Am I to understand that through Christ’s redemptive sacrifice Baptism has been given the power to make me a perfect human again? As Adam was in the beginning? Without sin and not subjected to death? Steering back to the original premise though…I would say Baptism can be undertaken under a pretense of sincerity. I can hardly believe that insincerity would lead to an indelible mark or seal from the holy spirit. I believe the bible says as much. So we are back to asking what is the nature of the mark or seal if the act does not necessarily lead to it? In this way the act itself cannot be the seal or indelible mark. Nor can it be the inevitable cause of the mark. This follows along the lines of the mistaken belief that many criminals have of no conscience when committing sin since as long as one simply goes through the process of confessing ones sins one is forgiven and the process repeats. Of course they are playing the odds of going to hell if the end comes before the confession but after the crime is committed. Making the whole thing a probabilistic farce. So Is it belief in the ritual that makes the difference? If so then once belief has been removed has the seal? If belief is the seal then the seal cant be indelible since one can lose belief. That or the seal or mark was never gained through the actions performed if one never had the belief in them.
May God enlighten the murky depths of my confusion through your insight.

In order for one to be able to be baptized, those who have reached the age of reason (about 7) must first be prepared for it. In the case of children who have not yet reached the age of reason, the parents must be prepared and there must be a founded hope that the child will be raised in the faith.

As far as Confession, one of the requirements is that there MUST be a firm purpose of amendment - otherwise you do not have true contrition and your Confession is not valid.

 

[setarcos]

setarcos;14510636:

In order for one to be able to be baptized, those who have reached the age of reason (about 7) must first be prepared for it. In the case of children who have not yet reached the age of reason, the parents must be prepared and there must be a founded hope that the child will be raised in the faith.

As far as Confession, one of the requirements is that there MUST be a firm purpose of amendment - otherwise you do not have true contrition and your Confession is not valid.

Greetings and blessings scholar of the word,
Could you explain how reason prepares one for baptism? It would seem reason alone cannot lead one to a belief in God, or at least the same conception of God as others. How is it that a seven year old is prepared to use reason to affecting its way through such a profound decision? Do we equate reason with moral maturity? I know of many adults who couldn’t make a cohesive decision on such things. Many are merely making a kind of Pascal’s wager without knowing it. Also as I’ve pointed out…the action alone cannot guarantee the seal, nor can belief in the action at the time. Unless the seal isn’t indelible but provisionary. As for babies, having a founded hope is no guarantee for the future of the child for the same reasons. Better to merely raise the child, or attempt to raise, in the faith and not risk the use of empty words about an unknown future. The promise in such a case is from and for the Parents not the child. You’ve merely split one baptism into two. First by the parents decision, second presumably by the child’s at the age of reason. If the second is needed then what of the first? If the first is sufficient then what of the second?
Concerning confession, that was my premise, that you MUST believe, but many do not when confessing, or are indifferent or misunderstand why it matters. And beliefs change, beliefs can mature, beliefs can stop, or alter. Like a river, many peoples beliefs are never quite the same when asked from one day to the next, or at least their reasons for believing. If you have correct belief for the wrong reasons is it the same? Hence, coming back to the mark, how is it indelible? What makes it so? Why do we believe we cannot lose this so called “indelible” mark? It cant be given merely because of the action. If its simply belief in the action then it isn’t indelible.
God bless and piece be upon you.

 

[setarcos]

setarcos;14510636:

Baptism removes the stain of original sin and marks the soul so that it is receptive to the graces given through the sacraments, and sensitive to the movement of the Holy Spirit, but the consequences of Adam’s fall are still present. Those are a corrupted nature, intellectual darkness, and a weakened will. Of course, each of these are more pronounced in some than in others and the grace poured out on the world through Christ’s redemption may act on the soul of the unbaptized, leading such persons to the truth of Christ. This is all covered in the Catechism.

Confession of mortal sins reinstates saving grace. God isn’t out to get us or catch us with technicalities, rather he gives us, through baptism and the other sacraments of initiation, the grace to remain faithful. We need to avail ourselves of the sacraments, engage in a life of prayer, and of service to God and others in order to remain in God’s grace and not presume upon his mercy by living a life of dissipation and then expecting God will overlook our sin. It’s both/and–God making his grace available and us making use of those graces in all the ways God provides–which is so abundant no one can make any excuse before God for being lax or deliberately sinful.

Hello again Elder of the gospel,
I am pleased you feel me worthy of your time.
God give you strength to bare my ignorance.
What is this “stain” of original sin apart from its consequences? Do we not know the stain on mans nature by the consequences? How does ones soul become receptive? Is the soul not receptive before baptism? If not how is one receptive to baptism itself? As I’ve said baptism can be done under pretense or mistaken understanding. Is it still a legitimate baptism then? What then does it mean to be sensitive to the movement of the Holy Spirit? If one prays for me will not the Holy Spirit be moved within me?
How is it that a consequence is intellectual darkness when the bible declared Adams eyes were opened to knowledge? In what way was will weakened? Wasn’t it weakness of the will to resist temptation that caused the fall in the first place? How was human nature corrupted? Nothing is said by the bible to have changed within Adams nature. Only that which was external to him was taken. Namely his comfort and access to immortality.
Confession does nothing of itself to gain grace. Cannot an unrepentant sinner confess to save his life? Technicalities is exactly what we’ve created in the sacraments. Faithfulness is born and sustained within not without. Expression of faith externally without the life giving roots of internal conviction is like a hollow tree ready to fall with the merest breeze. It looks strong and proud on the outside but is empty of life.
My point being, as I’ve said before, the sacraments by themselves are without meaning. Empty gestures to a God who knows the hearts of men. Only by true belief and conviction is a man allowed by God to give substance to them.

 

[GLam8833]

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing
comes thru the Word of God"Rom. 10:17
It is just like a train, faith latches itself
to the engine(the Word) and feelings
or confidence will follow. Therefore it
is necessary to have faith in what you
hear, then feelings will follow.We are
saved by hoping in the grace to be
brought to us at the revelation of Jesus
Christ at the Last day(See Rom 8:24;
1 Pet 1:13)

 

[Churchman25]

We are not you, so we cant make this decision for you, you have to make it but let me forwarn you that leaving the catholic church for another church is a very serious sin. Also why would you want to leave something you have already invested in, to a Wesleyan Church that is in heresy of schism. The thing is, is this is exactly what the devil wants for you, to excommunicate yourself from God. Im my opinion I would pray a rosary, and pray to God to help you fight off this temptation.

 

[steve_b]

How does one officially leave the Roman Catholic Church? Thank you

Some things to think about

(emphasis mine)

Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

Footnote: 336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.

• Lumen Gentium (paragraph 14) vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
• Mk 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
• Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Note: Baptism is an indelible mark on one’s soul. One can’t become unbaptized. That said, it doesn’t mean one can’t physically and/or theologically remove themselves from the church by any of these actions, thereby putting themselves outside the Church 2089

 

[His_helpmeet]

His_helpmeet;14511836:

Greetings and blessings scholar of the word,
Could you explain how reason prepares one for baptism? It would seem reason alone cannot lead one to a belief in God, or at least the same conception of God as others. How is it that a seven year old is prepared to use reason to affecting its way through such a profound decision? Do we equate reason with moral maturity? I know of many adults who couldn’t make a cohesive decision on such things. Many are merely making a kind of Pascal’s wager without knowing it. Also as I’ve pointed out…the action alone cannot guarantee the seal, nor can belief in the action at the time. Unless the seal isn’t indelible but provisionary. As for babies, having a founded hope is no guarantee for the future of the child for the same reasons. Better to merely raise the child, or attempt to raise, in the faith and not risk the use of empty words about an unknown future. The promise in such a case is from and for the Parents not the child. You’ve merely split one baptism into two. First by the parents decision, second presumably by the child’s at the age of reason. If the second is needed then what of the first? If the first is sufficient then what of the second?
Concerning confession, that was my premise, that you MUST believe, but many do not when confessing, or are indifferent or misunderstand why it matters. And beliefs change, beliefs can mature, beliefs can stop, or alter. Like a river, many peoples beliefs are never quite the same when asked from one day to the next, or at least their reasons for believing. If you have correct belief for the wrong reasons is it the same? Hence, coming back to the mark, how is it indelible? What makes it so? Why do we believe we cannot lose this so called “indelible” mark? It cant be given merely because of the action. If its simply belief in the action then it isn’t indelible.
God bless and piece be upon you.

Reason does not prepare one for Baptism. If a child has reached the age of reason (about 7), this means he or she is old enough to understand about what Baptism requires and entails. Therefore, children this age and older must generally be prepared for Baptism. Usually this is done using the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults adapted for Children or another catechism program.

Baptism places an indelible mark on the soul in that it frees a person from original sin - the loss of divine grace that occurs because of the sin of our first parents. Now, we still retain the EFFECTS of original sin (the tendency to do what is evil) and we can lose the grace that is given in Baptism. But we cannot regain original sin. This is different. Catholics baptize children and infants to emphasize that salvation is a free gift; it cannot be merited or earned in any way. Jesus said to His Apostles, “It was not you who chose Me, but it was I who chose you, and I appointed you to go and bear much fruit, fruit that will endure.”

As far as confession, a good confession requires a firm purpose of amendment and true sorrow for sin. If any of these things are lacking, the confession is not valid.