Leaving the Church

[steve_b]

Your ecclesial community reserves the right to punish apostates, heretics and schismatics, but it no longer has the means to do so in modern society. In a practical sense, the only punishment you impose on former Catholics is that if they marry, you won’t consider their marriages valid. That’s not insignificant.

Just a few comments

1. 
   *]The Catholic **Church **is the one Church Jesus established and gave all His promises to. Here’s a brief history of the 1st 400 years from the first century #34
   *]Protestantism regardless of stripe are ecclesial communities.
   
   *] There are many myths about the inquisition if that’s what you’re referring to
   *]As far as valid marriage, the Church has the right in her authority from Jesus her founder, to determine validity of a sacrament
   *]Whatever punishment is here in this life for actions against the Church or any of her sacraments, is NOTHING compared to punishment in the next.life, meted out by God
   m:
   

   As recently as 2006, a person could formally defect from the Catholic Church in order to marry validly (in your opinion). That option has been taken away.

   I never said anything about that. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else

 

[Sy_Noe]

Why would any Catholic in their right mind want to leave the Catholic Church? Total stupidity to leave the Catholic Church. Even if one does not subscribe to all Catholic doctrine they should remain a practicing Catholic and continue to attend Mass.

How does one not subscribe to all doctrine and at the same time remain a practicing Catholic? What does practicing mean? Just attending Mass?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Friend, Christendom did not work in the Middle Ages and Catholics do not think it will work any better today.

The Catholic Church is a hospital, not a prison. Catholics do not deny the right of Catholics to abandon Catholicism. Excommunication is automatic as it is the choice of the apostate. The Church simply acknowledges the apostate’s choice. Please remember, we consider excommunication medicinal. We hope the apostate’s hunger for the Eucharist will heal the cause(s) of their apostasy.

If an apostate was hungry for the Catholic Eucharist, I wonder how many would become apostate in the first place.

 

[masuwerte]

1. 
   *]The Catholic **Church **is the one Church Jesus established and gave all His promises to. Here’s a brief history of the 1st 400 years from the first century #34
   *]Protestantism regardless of stripe are ecclesial communities.

1. 
   This is a minor point, but it is important that language be precise. I believe you’re mistaken about the term “ecclesial community.” I understand it to be a more general, inclusive term than “church.” Just as all priests are ministers, but not all ministers are priests; all churches are ecclesial communities, but not all ecclesial communities are churches. Perhaps the Don can correct me if I’m wrong. Thank you.

 

[Peebo]

I think anyone leaving the Catholic church for a church that denies the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist…does that mean that they never believed that Christ was really present in the Eucharist…isn’t that treating the Eucharist as unworthy…which is a grave sin I believe…or worse still…they did believe that that Christ was really present but now deny it…could all of this be what Jesus warned us about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit which is the unpardonable sin…it just seems a dangerous way to go.

 

[carefullytread]

I think anyone leaving the Catholic church for a church that denies the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist…does that mean that they never believed that Christ was really present in the Eucharist…isn’t that treating the Eucharist as unworthy…which is a grave sin I believe…or worse still…they did believe that that Christ was really present but now deny it…could all of this be what Jesus warned us about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit which is the unpardonable sin…it just seems a dangerous way to go.

I think (though please correct me if I’m incorrectly extrapolating) polls tend to show that a solid majority of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. Just as an empirical matter, the presence or absence of the ‘Real Presence’ isn’t going to be the thing that prevents most Catholics for leaving or staying.

 

[steve_b]

This is a minor point, but it is important that language be precise.** I believe you’re mistaken about the term “ecclesial community.” ** I understand it to be a more general, inclusive term than “church.” Just as all priests are ministers, but not all ministers are priests; all churches are ecclesial communities, but not all ecclesial communities are churches. Perhaps the Don can correct me if I’m wrong. Thank you.

#2

From that point, one can go into many more specifics and qualifications to the question

 

[steve_b]

I think (though please correct me if I’m incorrectly extrapolating) polls tend to show that** a solid majority of Catholics** do not believe in the Real Presence. Just as an empirical matter, the presence or absence of the ‘Real Presence’ isn’t going to be the thing that prevents most Catholics for leaving or staying.

Are there Catholics who don’t believe? Sure

Keep in mind, even when Jesus taught His disciples face to face, about Himself and what they are to believe, many didn’t believe Him and walked away from Him.

Jn 6: (all emphasis mine)
40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living breadc] which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”d] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper′na-um.

60Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?e] 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

Bottom line,

• some/many followers won’t believe even if God Himself in the flesh, is teaching them face to face.
• there are Judases as well who are among the members.

Haven’t we heard it many times, it doesn’t matter what a person “says” they are or “calls” them self that counts, it’s what they do and how they live that determines who they are and what they believe.

 

[Peebo]

I think (though please correct me if I’m incorrectly extrapolating) polls tend to show that a solid majority of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. Just as an empirical matter, the presence or absence of the ‘Real Presence’ isn’t going to be the thing that prevents most Catholics for leaving or staying.

The majority of Catholics don’t attend mass on a regular basis…if at all…so it’s quite likely that many of those don’t believe…or just don’t care…either way…I do think that probably most Catholics who attend mass at least weekly do believe in the real presence because that is the whole point of going to mass…to receive the body and blood of our Blessed Savior.

 

[carefullytread]

The majority of Catholics don’t attend mass on a regular basis…if at all…so it’s quite likely that many of those don’t believe…or just don’t care…either way…I do think that probably most Catholics who attend mass at least weekly do believe in the real presence because that is the whole point of going to mass…to receive the body and blood of our Blessed Savior.

Yes, of course! I read one survey by CARA that did a good breakdown of these beliefs by people who attend mass. As you rightly predict, amongst people who attend mass weekly, the belief is very high, at 90%! Some caveats are that this survey is not too big, that it includes only American Catholics, and was done about a decade ago. Still, if this sort of thing interests you, they have lots of detailed questions that are worth looking over.

The percent of Catholics who are regular mass goers has been steadily decreasing over the last decade, but one of the really interesting results they break out is that belief in the Real Presence and the ranking of its importance is higher in Millennials who do attend mass! Of course, Millennial mass attendance isn’t high, but still a cool finding.

But my original point was rather more prosaic - you shouldn’t be too surprised that the Real Presence doesn’t stop many people from leaving the Church, since many (most?) Catholics don’t believe in it. Devout Catholics who go every week to mass probably do believe and probably aren’t the ones leaving.

 

[John_Yurich_USA]

How does one not subscribe to all doctrine and at the same time remain a practicing Catholic? What does practicing mean? Just attending Mass?

If a Baptized Catholic does not subscribe to all Catholic doctrines but attends Mass every weekend then they are a practicing Catholic.

 

[John_Yurich_USA]

The majority of Catholics don’t attend mass on a regular basis…if at all…so it’s quite likely that many of those don’t believe…or just don’t care…either way…I do think that probably most Catholics who attend mass at least weekly do believe in the real presence because that is the whole point of going to mass…to receive the body and blood of our Blessed Savior.

I am a Baptized Catholic who attends Mass every weekend but I do not believe in the Catholic doctrine of Holy Communion. I accept the Lutheran doctrine of Holy Communion. I still receive the bread and the cup of wine during Mass though but I do not state “Amen” when I am handed the bread and the cup of wine as that would be acknowledging the Catholic doctrine of Holy Communion.