Leaving the ELCA

[Reuben_J]

Legally, as in civil law, they do have to remove his name from the records of their church and cannot discipline him according to church law once they receive the resignation letter.

In 1981, a woman who was a member of the Church of Christ formally resigned from the church in writing. After doing so, the church refused to acknowledge the resignation and proceeded to excommunicate her. She sued and ultimately won damages. Her case went all the way to the Oklahoma Supreme Court (see Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville).

There is a similar case of a man by the name of Norman Hancock who resigned from the LDS church in Arizona in 1985. The LDS church rejected his resignation and proceeded to excommunication him. He sued the LDS church for $18 million. They settled out of court. As part of the settlement, the LDS church changed their records to show that Mr. Hancock resigned from the LDS church and was not excommunicated. The LDS church agreed to settle because of the precedence of the Guinn case in Oklahoma.

I am not sure whether it is due to the words you used but this seems to me, if it is true, that the church has more power and hold on a person than it should especially if it can ‘discipline’ its member. I am thinking from the perspect that the church being of God and that humans are merely its workers.

 

[MattofTexas]

I am not sure whether it is due to the words you used but this seems to me, if it is true, that the church has more power and hold on a person than it should especially if it can ‘discipline’ its member. I am thinking from the perspect that the church being of God and that humans are merely its workers.

I think the term disciple here refers to things like excommunication. There have been cases where members of some churches wanted to leave and their church responded by excommunicating them, or made the process drawn out and complicated, instead of simply taking their name off the roles.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

As one who has very little knowledge of how other church functions, this is some of the aspects of Protestantism that always impresses me. That every parisohner is known and monitored is almost non-existence in the Catholic Church. We do have a record of who the parishioners are and perhaps from time to time there would be some kind of census but we wouldn’t know who come and who don’t let alone receiving communion. Catholics who left the faith simply did it by just not coming anymore and probably nobody would know unless their close friends or relatives.

Then other is of course your kind welcome for those who attend the service. I was invited by a friend to attend a talk in a Protestant church and to my surprise, no less than the pastor himself welcomed me. That is something one would not see regulalry in our Catholic church.

Most Lutheran parishes are just a few hundred communicants so keeping count is not too difficult. Also Lutherans are urged to note their participation in holy Communion. I think Luther even required at least 4 days a year.

 

[Reuben_J]

Most Lutheran parishes are just a few hundred communicants so keeping count is not too difficult. Also Lutherans are urged to note their participation in holy Communion. I think Luther even required at least 4 days a year.

Thanks. I wish the Catholic Church would be able to do this though admittedly it would be a different culture altogther not mention the fact of the tremendous logistic involved to monitor parishioners who are taking communion.

God bless.

 

[Jeffgo]

In my Lutheran congregation, we passed little binders around in the pews where you could check off whether you were a member, a visitor, and/or whether you were receiving Holy Communion.

 

[ltwin]

I am not sure whether it is due to the words you used but this seems to me, if it is true, that the church has more power and hold on a person than it should especially if it can ‘discipline’ its member. I am thinking from the perspect that the church being of God and that humans are merely its workers.

“Discipline” does not refer to a spanking.

It simply refers to things like limiting participation or responsibilities in a church until a person’s behavior conforms to that religion’s expectations.

For example, if a person is known to be having an extramarital affair and just doesn’t want to change, then the church might bar him from any leadership position and certain activities in the church (like taking communion maybe). This would be “discipline.”

The most severe form of discipline a church can give is to excommunicate or disfellowship a member. It’s not meant to punish but to get across to the person that their behavior reflects on God and the church and they need to live lives that glorify Christ.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think the term disciple here refers to things like excommunication. There have been cases where members of some churches wanted to leave and their church responded by excommunicating them, or made the process drawn out and complicated, instead of simply taking their name off the roles.

Well, it is understandable enough then. Excommunication is necessary if the person takes up different belief or go against the church’s teaching and yet still claims a member. What strikes me in all these is the havoc how an ordinary member can cause to the church and the attention he gets; and how the church needs to deal with him individually. It is kind of flattering, a situation that is not often found in the Catholic Church.

 

[Reuben_J]

“Discipline” does not refer to a spanking.

It simply refers to things like limiting participation or responsibilities in a church until a person’s behavior conforms to that religion’s expectations.

For example, if a person is known to be having an extramarital affair and just doesn’t want to change, then the church might bar him from any leadership position and certain activities in the church (like taking communion maybe). This would be “discipline.”

The most severe form of discipline a church can give is to excommunicate or disfellowship a member. It’s not meant to punish but to get across to the person that their behavior reflects on God and the church and they need to live lives that glorify Christ.

Thanks, Itwin. I would guess it would be as such. Protestants are definitely better in administering and looking after their members obviously but as mentioned probably that is because of the small number which is easier to manage. In the Catholic Church, probably nobody exactly notice or make a big deal of it if you do not go for Holy Communion on a Sunday mass. There is nobody to really monitor you unless you have talked to a priest about your situation and he would advise but nobody would really enforce the displining.

 

[Luz_Maria]

[Snip] That every parisohner is known and monitored is almost non-existence in the Catholic Church.
[Snip]

If you receive “the envelopes” from your parish, keeping track of your church attendance is part of their purpose – at least in the diocese where I live.

 

[Reuben_J]

If you receive “the envelopes” from your parish, keeping track of your church attendance is part of their purpose – at least in the diocese where I live.

Yes, we have to do something about this especially in reaching out to the non-practicing. Some dioceses make various efforts to that effect but it is by no mean very consistent thing but more of an ad hoc action to address the general need that may become palpable from time to time.

Btw, for us the envelopes that are made available at the church’s entrance were during Lent. And when there are big projects that need to be done.

God bless.

 

[BettyBoop416]

Legally, as in civil law, they do have to remove his name from the records of their church and cannot discipline him according to church law once they receive the resignation letter.

In 1981, a woman who was a member of the Church of Christ formally resigned from the church in writing. After doing so, the church refused to acknowledge the resignation and proceeded to excommunicate her. She sued and ultimately won damages. Her case went all the way to the Oklahoma Supreme Court (see Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville).

There is a similar case of a man by the name of Norman Hancock who resigned from the LDS church in Arizona in 1985. The LDS church rejected his resignation and proceeded to excommunication him. He sued the LDS church for $18 million. They settled out of court. As part of the settlement, the LDS church changed their records to show that Mr. Hancock resigned from the LDS church and was not excommunicated. The LDS church agreed to settle because of the precedence of the Guinn case in Oklahoma.

Interesting. I’ve always heard it said that one cannot “resign” from the Catholic Church - that once baptized, one is always subject to canon law. I guess if someone wants out bad enough they can move to Oklahoma and resign. If it applies to the Church of Christ and the LDS church, there’s no reason it shouldn’t apply to the Catholic Church.

 

[Luz_Maria]

Yes, we have to do something about this especially in reaching out to the non-practicing. Some dioceses make various efforts to that effect but it is by no mean very consistent thing but more of an ad hoc action to address the general need that may become palpable from time to time.

Btw, for us the envelopes that are made available at the church’s entrance were during Lent. And when there are big projects that need to be done.

God bless.

Thank you! God bless you back a thousand fold!

I meant the envelopes you receive at the house with your name and your “church membership number” uch: (or whatever it is called) for the weekly and special collections.

The other envelopes for the Poor Souls, Christmas Altar flowers, etc. do not have a means to keep track – unless you “pay” by check.

 

[iepuras]

I don’t have experience with Protestant churches, but I am familiar with my rights to resign from a church as I resigned from the LDS church earlier this year. The LDS church recognizes the right to resign based on the precedent of the Guinn case and their own experience with Mr. Hancock. Even though the Guinn case was in Oklahoma, once Hancock sued, lawyers for the LDS church likely realized that, with the Guinn case, they would lose in any state. Prior to Hancock slapping them with an $18 million lawsuit, the LDS church refused to accept resignations and routinely excommunicated members who tried to resign.

In the Guinn case, Ms. Guinn was suspected of fornication by the leaders of her church. They followed her to gather evidence. She resigned and was later excommunicated. In addition, the pastor at her former church publicly announced that she was guilty of fornication. She sued over their activities and their treatment of her before and after the resignation. Interestingly, she did not win any damages for anything they did prior to her resignation. She only won on the church’s efforts to mete out church discipline after her resignation.

Before God, no one can really “resign” from His church. We can’t undo baptism. We can certainly removed ourselves from God. I expect the Catholic Church and mainline Protestants to be respectful of someone who wants to simply leave and be left alone regardless if there is a formal resignation or not. When I left the LDS church, that is what I wanted but we ended up with some high ranking local leaders at our front door unannounced one Sunday. The harassment was starting so we formally resigned so the LDS would be legally required to leave us alone.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thank you! God bless you back a thousand fold!

:hug3:

I meant the envelopes you receive at the house with your name and your “church membership number” uch: (or whatever it is called) for the weekly and special collections.

Its’ ok, I know what you mean. We do not have that mainly because of the logistic – our archdiocese is very big that covers big area. The last few years what we did was to carry out survey to finalize the number of parishioners. That was where we discovered that many of them were either not practicing or nominal Catholics. Well at least we know who they are and the number of their household. Basically we can categorize them into three categories – (1) the active ones who are involved in church activities; (2) those who come for Sundays and days of obligation masses and (3) those who do not come for the mass at all.

We do not send envelopes to the parishioners, maybe it will come to that, I don’t know, but we are doing something for the non-practicing by trying to visit their houses in an appointed time. I was trying to pull your leg – and yes, those envelopes at the church’s entrance are for donations, where no names are required.

The other envelopes for the Poor Souls, Christmas Altar flowers, etc. do not have a means to keep track – unless you “pay” by check.

Yep.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t have experience with Protestant churches, but I am familiar with my rights to resign from a church as I resigned from the LDS church earlier this year. The LDS church recognizes the right to resign based on the precedent of the Guinn case and their own experience with Mr. Hancock. Even though the Guinn case was in Oklahoma, once Hancock sued, lawyers for the LDS church likely realized that, with the Guinn case, they would lose in any state. Prior to Hancock slapping them with an $18 million lawsuit, the LDS church refused to accept resignations and routinely excommunicated members who tried to resign.

In the Guinn case, Ms. Guinn was suspected of fornication by the leaders of her church. They followed her to gather evidence. She resigned and was later excommunicated. In addition, the pastor at her former church publicly announced that she was guilty of fornication. She sued over their activities and their treatment of her before and after the resignation. Interestingly, she did not win any damages for anything they did prior to her resignation. She only won on the church’s efforts to mete out church discipline after her resignation.

Before God, no one can really “resign” from His church. We can’t undo baptism. We can certainly removed ourselves from God. I expect the Catholic Church and mainline Protestants to be respectful of someone who wants to simply leave and be left alone regardless if there is a formal resignation or not. When I left the LDS church, that is what I wanted but we ended up with some high ranking local leaders at our front door unannounced one Sunday. The harassment was starting so we formally resigned so the LDS would be legally required to leave us alone.

May God bless you on your journey and welcome home.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Yes, we have to do something about this especially in reaching out to the non-practicing. Some dioceses make various efforts to that effect but it is by no mean very consistent thing but more of an ad hoc action to address the general need that may become palpable from time to time.

Btw, for us the envelopes that are made available at the church’s entrance were during Lent. And when there are big projects that need to be done.

God bless.

Envelopes is common among Lutherans also and special offerings during Lent.

 

[MattofTexas]

Interesting. I’ve always heard it said that one cannot “resign” from the Catholic Church - that once baptized, one is always subject to canon law. I guess if someone wants out bad enough they can move to Oklahoma and resign. If it applies to the Church of Christ and the LDS church, there’s no reason it shouldn’t apply to the Catholic Church.

I don’t know how the law would be applied to the Catholic Church, but it’s important to realize that even if someone’s name is removed from Church records, ecclesiologically that person could still be bound by Canon Law in the eyes of God and the Church even if he or she was no longer legally or officially a member due to the religious teaching of the Church about herself and her members. Of course a person who resigned from the Catholic Church likely wouldn’t care if the Church beleived him or her still bound by Canon Law and would feel free to do as they like since the Church has no civil jurisdiction over them and they seemingly no longer believe in the Church’s spiritual authority; so long as the Church respects whatever is legally required in terms of leaving the person alone, etc.

On a different note, since the Catholic Church is not based in the United States perhaps records could be kept out of country legally even if someone wanted to resign? Since the LDS Church is headquartered in Utah they might not have that option, but Catholics might since the Catholic Church began in Jerusalem and has her global headquarters in Vatican City it might be different?

 

[ltwin]

I don’t know how the law would be applied to the Catholic Church . . .

Not sure about US law, but there was an interesting court case in France not to long ago. A man renounced the Catholic Church but wanted the church to “debaptize” him. The French court said the Church had to do that.

 

[Reuben_J]

Not sure about US law, but there was an interesting court case in France not to long ago. A man renounced the Catholic Church but wanted the church to “debaptize” him. The French court said the Church had to do that.

That was very silly but then again the law of man can do anything to interfere with the law of God. Anyway, how would the church debaptize him? Perhaps that was some code word for excommunication. The Church does not usually do this but if the person adopts different teaching and preaches against the Church while claiming that he is still Catholic, he may be in for excommunication, but it is not normal to ask for it.

But Protestant churches nevertheless are very efficient in this aspect. It is just nearly impossible to know whether a Catholic receives Holy Communion or not, let alone to count the number of times he does it.

 

[ltwin]

But Protestant churches nevertheless are very efficient in this aspect. It is just nearly impossible to know whether a Catholic receives Holy Communion or not, let alone to count the number of times he does it.

Well, I think, as in many things, different Protestant churches will have different track records on how well they keep up with individual members. I’m sure some churches do well keeping in touch and others not so well.