Leaving the episocal church-advice?

[DeusExMachina]

As the title suggests, I am very close to leaving the anglican communion. Several things have influenced my decision.
Firstly, the church still officially teaches the plainly unbiblical doctrine of sola fide. Also, though thankfully they are no longer binding, there are several aspects of the 39 articles that I cannot reconcile with my personal convictions, such as denial of transubstantiation, rejecting the apocrypha as non-canonical, and the implicit approval of Calvinist predestination heresy (they even have him canonized as a saint!); add that to the fact that none of these positions can be backed by scripture, and that it contradicts the teaching of every church founded before 1500. Another gripe that I have is that instead of ancient prayers like the Kyrie or Agnus Dei, the services are mostly filled with hymns written by Methodists (not exactly apostolic, is it?). Despite the beautiful music, vestments, and decorations and all the effort put into creating a sensually powerful liturgy, despite the fact that I listen to and digest every word of the sermon, I do not feel God in the worship anywhere; it all seems empty. Perhaps what bothers me most though is that fact that church doctrines have changed at all. Surely if it was the pure absolute truth, it would survive through the centuries.

So, naturally I have begun searching elsewhere for spiritual nourishment. I initially looked at Lutheranism, only to remember that they espouse the doctrines I disagreed with just as strongly. I investigated Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but was discouraged by the overly ‘ethnic’ character that many potential converts have encountered. So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis?

Thanks,

Your brother in Christ,
DeusExMachina

 

[GKC]

As the title suggests, I am very close to leaving the anglican communion. Several things have influenced my decision.
Firstly, the church still officially teaches the plainly unbiblical doctrine of sola fide. Also, though thankfully they are no longer binding, there are several aspects of the 39 articles that I cannot reconcile with my personal convictions, such as denial of transubstantiation, rejecting the apocrypha as non-canonical, and the implicit approval of Calvinist predestination heresy (they even have him canonized as a saint!); add that to the fact that none of these positions can be backed by scripture, and that it contradicts the teaching of every church founded before 1500. Another gripe that I have is that instead of ancient prayers like the Kyrie or Agnus Dei, the services are mostly filled with hymns written by Methodists (not exactly apostolic, is it?). Despite the beautiful music, vestments, and decorations and all the effort put into creating a sensually powerful liturgy, despite the fact that I listen to and digest every word of the sermon, I do not feel God in the worship anywhere; it all seems empty. Perhaps what bothers me most though is that fact that church doctrines have changed at all. Surely if it was the pure absolute truth, it would survive through the centuries.

So, naturally I have begun searching elsewhere for spiritual nourishment. I initially looked at Lutheranism, only to remember that they espouse the doctrines I disagreed with just as strongly. I investigated Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but was discouraged by the overly ‘ethnic’ character that many potential converts have encountered. So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis?

Thanks,

Your brother in Christ,
DeusExMachina

No nudges from me. But if you found a traditionalist Continuing Anglo-Catholic parish, such as mine, it might be a fit. OTOH, you’ll find a lot of such traditionalists not having any problems with the BVM, as you list here.

OTOH, if you can affirm all that the RCC requires you to affirm, nothing wrong with that destination. Listen to any who can expound those doctrines you mention. Study carefully, and discern likewise.

Good luck.

 

[peter26]

I can offer you this passage of scripture on the immaculate conception

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

(Luke 1:28-35 KJV)

Beyond that, I’d start by attending a Catholic Mass. That’s a good way to see Catholic beliefs in practice.

 

[DeusExMachina]

No nudges from me. But if you found a traditionalist Continuing Anglo-Catholic parish, such as mine, it might be a fit. OTOH, you’ll find a lot of such traditionalists not having any problems with the BVM, as you list here.

OTOH, if you can affirm all that the RCC requires you to affirm, nothing wrong with that destination. Listen to any who can expound those doctrines you mention. Study carefully, and discern likewise.

Good luck.

Thank you, but I have to ask, what exactly do you mean by BVM?

 

[GKC]

Thank you, but I have to ask, what exactly do you mean by BVM?

Blessed Virgin Mary. The issues of perpetual virginity and immaculate conception that you mentioned suggested that comment.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Blessed Virgin Mary. The issues of perpetual virginity and immaculate conception that you mentioned suggested that comment.

Duh! thank you again, And you see, I would consider an CAC parish, but as I am a full year and a half from moving out of my parent’s household, it is not yet my choice, regrettably

 

[GKC]

Duh! thank you again, And you see, I would consider an CAC parish, but as I am a full year and a half from moving out of my parent’s household, it is not yet my choice, regrettably

Gives you time to study the question. And start attending some RC Masses.

 

[Padres1969]

As the title suggests, I am very close to leaving the anglican communion. Several things have influenced my decision.
Firstly, the church still officially teaches the plainly unbiblical doctrine of sola fide. Also, though thankfully they are no longer binding, there are several aspects of the 39 articles that I cannot reconcile with my personal convictions, such as denial of transubstantiation, rejecting the apocrypha as non-canonical, and the implicit approval of Calvinist predestination heresy (they even have him canonized as a saint!); add that to the fact that none of these positions can be backed by scripture, and that it contradicts the teaching of every church founded before 1500. Another gripe that I have is that instead of ancient prayers like the Kyrie or Agnus Dei, the services are mostly filled with hymns written by Methodists (not exactly apostolic, is it?). Despite the beautiful music, vestments, and decorations and all the effort put into creating a sensually powerful liturgy, despite the fact that I listen to and digest every word of the sermon, I do not feel God in the worship anywhere; it all seems empty. Perhaps what bothers me most though is that fact that church doctrines have changed at all. Surely if it was the pure absolute truth, it would survive through the centuries.

So, naturally I have begun searching elsewhere for spiritual nourishment. I initially looked at Lutheranism, only to remember that they espouse the doctrines I disagreed with just as strongly. I investigated Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but was discouraged by the overly ‘ethnic’ character that many potential converts have encountered. So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis?

Thanks,

Your brother in Christ,
DeusExMachina

Don’t let me dissuade you or persuade you one way or the other, but actually Anglicanism doesn’t really implicitly approve of the Calvinist view on predestination.

As for the Kyrie I suspect it may depend on the individual church. Many do still use it in the Anglican Communion as it is still part of both Rite I and Rite II.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Don’t let me dissuade you or persuade you one way or the other, but actually Anglicanism doesn’t really implicitly approve of the Calvinist view on predestination.

As for the Kyrie I suspect it may depend on the individual church. Many do still use it in the Anglican Communion as it is still part of both Rite I and Rite II.

Oh really. Then what do you make of article XVII?
“Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God’s purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God’s mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.
As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God’s Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.
Furthermore, we must receive God’s promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.”

 

[GKC]

Oh really. Then what do you make of article XVII?
“Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God’s purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God’s mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.
As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God’s Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.
Furthermore, we must receive God’s promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.”

Since the Articles are not, in themselves, binding on Anglicans in general, (as you seem to appreciate) unless one happens to be clergy of the CoE, who are (theoretically) bound not to dissent from them (per the Subscription Act of 1571), other than those Articles that are merely slices of Trinitarian Christianity, why are you concerned with how Elizabeth I chose to govern her fractious Church?

 

[steido01]

As the title suggests, I am very close to leaving the anglican communion. Several things have influenced my decision.
Firstly, the church still officially teaches the plainly unbiblical doctrine of sola fide. Also, though thankfully they are no longer binding, there are several aspects of the 39 articles that I cannot reconcile with my personal convictions, such as denial of transubstantiation, rejecting the apocrypha as non-canonical, and the implicit approval of Calvinist predestination heresy (they even have him canonized as a saint!); add that to the fact that none of these positions can be backed by scripture, and that it contradicts the teaching of every church founded before 1500. Another gripe that I have is that instead of ancient prayers like the Kyrie or Agnus Dei, the services are mostly filled with hymns written by Methodists (not exactly apostolic, is it?). Despite the beautiful music, vestments, and decorations and all the effort put into creating a sensually powerful liturgy, despite the fact that I listen to and digest every word of the sermon, I do not feel God in the worship anywhere; it all seems empty. Perhaps what bothers me most though is that fact that church doctrines have changed at all. Surely if it was the pure absolute truth, it would survive through the centuries.

So, naturally I have begun searching elsewhere for spiritual nourishment. I initially looked at Lutheranism, only to remember that they espouse the doctrines I disagreed with just as strongly. I investigated Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but was discouraged by the overly ‘ethnic’ character that many potential converts have encountered. So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis?

Thanks,

Your brother in Christ,
DeusExMachina

Not meaning to convince you. I’m only clarifying for others who might stumble on this thread and read misinformation: Lutherans don’t teach any of those Calvinistic doctrines you outlined, save Faith Alone. Yet even that doctrine is unique in the Lutheran definition, which understands works to be a necessary response to Grace. Some theologians think this differs from Roman Catholicism only semantically. Others would disagree.

Now to the actual meat of your post. If Catholicism is where the Spirit is calling you, then study it entirely and be secure in its teachings. Attend RCIA. Meet with a priest. Go to Mass. Most of all, pray for the Spirit’s guidance. But carefully test your reasoning for doing so. Surrendering to the least offensive option only because it is the least offensive option typically doesn’t result in a fairytale ending.

 

[commenter]

Prayer. Prayer. and More Prayer.

It’s a tough decision, because it’s on a few levels.

Which denomination’s theology seems best to me?

Which services am I most comfortable with - or rather, call me to conversion?

Which local church do I like best? referring to the pastor, setting, and congregation.

You can’t necessarily judge a whole denomination based on one specific neighboring church, which might not be representative of the whole.

C. S. Lewis gives a little good advice in Mere Christianity, which is worth reading for many reasons anyway.

I hereby enlist this thread to pray for your guidance.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

As the title suggests, I am very close to leaving the anglican communion. Several things have influenced my decision.
Firstly, the church still officially teaches the plainly unbiblical doctrine of sola fide. Also, though thankfully they are no longer binding, there are several aspects of the 39 articles that I cannot reconcile with my personal convictions, such as denial of transubstantiation, rejecting the apocrypha as non-canonical, and the implicit approval of Calvinist predestination heresy (they even have him canonized as a saint!); add that to the fact that none of these positions can be backed by scripture, and that it contradicts the teaching of every church founded before 1500. Another gripe that I have is that instead of ancient prayers like the Kyrie or Agnus Dei, the services are mostly filled with hymns written by Methodists (not exactly apostolic, is it?). Despite the beautiful music, vestments, and decorations and all the effort put into creating a sensually powerful liturgy, despite the fact that I listen to and digest every word of the sermon, I do not feel God in the worship anywhere; it all seems empty. Perhaps what bothers me most though is that fact that church doctrines have changed at all. Surely if it was the pure absolute truth, it would survive through the centuries.

So, naturally I have begun searching elsewhere for spiritual nourishment. I initially looked at Lutheranism, only to remember that they espouse the doctrines I disagreed with just as strongly. I investigated Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but was discouraged by the overly ‘ethnic’ character that many potential converts have encountered. So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis?

Thanks,

Your brother in Christ,
DeusExMachina

Personally, in so far as you are contemplating the Roman Church as a possible destination, I would suggest reaching out to the Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter, since you are in the United States. In this way, you can be in dialogue with those who have themselves come into full communion with the Roman Church from the Anglican Communion…and done so in your country.

Please know that your various concerns are very familiar to those who have walked the same path. The priests of the Ordinariate are best positioned to answer your practical questions and address your concerns.
ordinariate.net/

Also, you will want to know about the Book of Divine Worship (BDW) and all that has been done by the Vatican so that those making this journey are able to preserve the best of their Anglican patrimony, personally and corporately. Provision has been made to retain many elements from the Anglican liturgy. The BDW is used for the celebration of the Eucharist, Baptism, Matrimony, the Daily Office, etc.

You should definitely read the introduction of the apostolic constitution of Pope Benedict XVI, Anglicanorum coetibus, when he began creating Anglican Ordinariates.
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus.html

Also, the beautiful lives of John Henry Newman in England and Elizabeth Ann Seton in the United States are something to read and, perhaps, be inspired by.

It was a great blessing for me, as a priest, to know those priests and communities of the Anglican faithful who were first part of the pastoral provision in the '80s, to watch the growth in the 90s, and then ultimately the fruition of this extraordinary development with the creation of the Ordinariates. It is a beautiful story in the life of the Church after Vatican II.

I will be praying for you, dear brother in Christ. God’s blessing be upon you.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Personally, in so far as you are contemplating the Roman Church as a possible destination, I would suggest reaching out to the Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter, since you are in the United States. In this way, you can be in dialogue with those who have themselves come into full communion with the Roman Church from the Anglican Communion…and done so in your country.

Please know that your various concerns are very familiar to those who have walked the same path. The priests of the Ordinariate are best positioned to answer your practical questions and address your concerns.
ordinariate.net/

Also, you will want to know about the Book of Divine Worship (BDW) and all that has been done by the Vatican so that those making this journey are able to preserve the best of their Anglican patrimony, personally and corporately. Provision has been made to retain many elements from the Anglican liturgy. The BDW is used for the celebration of the Eucharist, Baptism, Matrimony, the Daily Office, etc.

You should definitely read the introduction of the apostolic constitution of Pope Benedict XVI, Anglicanorum coetibus, when he began creating Anglican Ordinariates.
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus.html

Also, the beautiful lives of John Henry Newman in England and Elizabeth Ann Seton in the United States are something to read and, perhaps, be inspired by.

It was a great blessing for me, as a priest, to know those priests and communities of the Anglican faithful who were first part of the pastoral provision in the '80s, to watch the growth in the 90s, and then ultimately the fruition of this extraordinary development with the creation of the Ordinariates. It is a beautiful story in the life of the Church after Vatican II.

I will be praying for you, dear brother in Christ. God’s blessing be upon you.

Thank you for the information and prayers. Unfortunately, based on their website, the closest congregation is in Greenville, South Carolina which is 4-5 hours away from where I live

 

[7_Sorrows]

I converted to the Catholic church from the Episcopal church.
I really did not want to be confirmed in the Episcopal church, but I was 15 or 16 and there was no one to talk to about converting to Catholicism. I became a non-practicing Christian for over 20 years and finally converted at 58. I would start reading as much about Catholicism as you can. Do you feel your parents would not approve?

 

[Padres1969]

Oh really. Then what do you make of article XVII?
“Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God’s purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God’s mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.
As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God’s Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.
Furthermore, we must receive God’s promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.”

Suggest reading the link I provided for a more thorough explanation.

As for your main reasons for leaving, I wish you well and will pray for you. I know how it can feel having found myself in a similar position as you feeling disconnected and hollow. Even if I was ultimately swimming the opposite way across the Thames as you may be.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Thank you for the information and prayers. Unfortunately, based on their website, the closest congregation is in Greenville, South Carolina which is 4-5 hours away from where I live

Yes…but there is not a one to one correlation of these things. Not all priests who come from the Anglican Communion to the Roman Church do so with a parish – so many come over individually. And, actually, not all Ordinariate or pastoral provision clergy have an Ordinariate/pastoral provision parish. Moreover, there are groups of laity, too, who are awaiting the establishment of an Ordinariate parish and these may exist much closer to you. In fact, I just had a go through of some things I happen to have close at hand and I will send you information momentarily by personal message. Please be on the look out. Invoking God’s blessing upon you once again.

 

[TK421]

As the title suggests, I am very close to leaving the anglican communion. Several things have influenced my decision.
Firstly, the church still officially teaches the plainly unbiblical doctrine of sola fide. Also, though thankfully they are no longer binding, there are several aspects of the 39 articles that I cannot reconcile with my personal convictions, such as denial of transubstantiation, rejecting the apocrypha as non-canonical, and the implicit approval of Calvinist predestination heresy (they even have him canonized as a saint!); add that to the fact that none of these positions can be backed by scripture, and that it contradicts the teaching of every church founded before 1500. Another gripe that I have is that instead of ancient prayers like the Kyrie or Agnus Dei, the services are mostly filled with hymns written by Methodists (not exactly apostolic, is it?). Despite the beautiful music, vestments, and decorations and all the effort put into creating a sensually powerful liturgy, despite the fact that I listen to and digest every word of the sermon, I do not feel God in the worship anywhere; it all seems empty. Perhaps what bothers me most though is that fact that church doctrines have changed at all. Surely if it was the pure absolute truth, it would survive through the centuries.

So, naturally I have begun searching elsewhere for spiritual nourishment. I initially looked at Lutheranism, only to remember that they espouse the doctrines I disagreed with just as strongly. I investigated Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but was discouraged by the overly ‘ethnic’ character that many potential converts have encountered. So, it seems, the last logical option for me is Roman Catholicism. However, there are still certain beliefs that I need to wrap my head around, such as Perpetual Virginity, Papal Infallibility, and the Immaculate conception. Could anyone help me understand what is really meant by these beliefs, and their scriptural and/or apostolic basis?

Thanks,

Your brother in Christ,
DeusExMachina

Hi Deus,

The best answers are going to come from theologians and saints that answer these questions. My short form answer is: I don’t believe God would hand his people a loose anthology of ancient text called the Bible (and not even that, really, since the current canon wasn’t completely established for the majority of Christian history) and essentially tell them, “Good luck”. I think he would give people something concrete, and that something concrete is a hierarchical Church, with a top bishop, which we call the Pope. If the Pope was incapable of making an infallible statement when necessary, than what is really the purpose of a Pope at all? He would essentially be a head of state dressed up in religious garments. In times of great crisis or dispute, it’s just his word against any other. What would make him so special? That some other guys in red outfits elected him? That might be good enough for some people, but it wouldn’t be good enough for me. I think I’d rather navigate the free for all of Protestantism, unless of course the Bishop of Rome’s role is something more than purely ecclesial authority. Something that came with a promise from Christ.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Hi Deus,

The best answers are going to come from theologians and saints that answer these questions. My short form answer is: I don’t believe God would hand his people a loose anthology of ancient text called the Bible (and not even that, really, since the current canon wasn’t completely established for the majority of Christian history) and essentially tell them, “Good luck”. I think he would give people something concrete, and that something concrete is a hierarchical Church, with a top bishop, which we call the Pope. If the Pope was incapable of making an infallible statement when necessary, than what is really the purpose of a Pope at all? He would essentially be a head of state dressed up in religious garments. In times of great crisis or dispute, it’s just his word against any other. What would make him so special? That some other guys in red outfits elected him? That might be good enough for some people, but it wouldn’t be good enough for me. I think I’d rather navigate the free for all of Protestantism, unless of course the Bishop of Rome’s role is something more than purely ecclesial authority. Something that came with a promise from Christ.

You wouldnt be referring to the “you are the rock on which I build my church” excerpt, by any chance?

 

[truthseeker32]

I sincerely hope that the “ethnic” nature of many orthodox parishes isn’t your sole reason for disregarding the faith.