Leaving the RCC for Neo-Druidism

[justinthemartyr]

It appears as if the original poster has abandoned this thread, as he might actually have to discuss it. He is looking for a reason to leave.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Neo-druidism or neo-druidry (referred to simply as Druidry by some adherents) is a form of modern spirituality that generally promotes harmony with nature, often through the form of nature worship. It is considered to be a Neopagan faith, along with such religions as Wicca and Germanic neopaganism.

Originally inspired by 17th, 18th and 19th century romantic movements, early neo-druidism was based upon largely historically incorrect depictions of the Iron Age Celtic druids, and has no direct relation to the ancient Celts or their culture.[1] In more recent years, some neo-druid groups have adopted similar methodologies to those of Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism, in an effort to create a more historically accurate practice. However, there is still controversy over how much resemblance neo-druidism may or may not have to actual, historical druidism.2

 

[water]

Hi Rusty,

In November 25, 2006, in your first post, you mentioned about wanting to join the Catholic Church. I am wondering, how long you have been Catholic? I think you might want to discuss more with your priest to really understand the issues you are having.

God bless.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Sorry for not responding sooner everyone. Crazy weekend.

**
The Church has changed at least one of it’s infallible doctirnes “No Salvation Outside the church”**

Fr. Feeney was reprimanded by Pope Pius XII himself for carrying this too far. It has ALWAYS been subject to qualifications.

But was it not also retracted and he never repented or so I came to understand.

You are leaving to go to a religion that has no rules at all?

I am a former member of the British Order of Bards Ovates and druids, In catholicism I find many of the the same things I enjoyed in Druidry, the respect, veneration, ritual a connectedness to time and place people and the ancestors.

For me the Fundamental thing that led me here was first that God IS, belief in the creed followed later, but if you get lost in rules/cataechism go back to the apostles creed, then give your self back to him in the Mass.

I find the free online “penny catechism” very helpful in answering the questions that today get a long response.

There is much freedom In catholicism today and historically for differences of approach and understanding ,

within catholicism you find environmentalism of st. Francis, The social responsibility care in the jesuits, or of Mother Theresa etc. etc.

When I was a druid (and later a buddhist )I had experiences of God, but it was like the voice of someone a long way off, now I am far closer to him.

Thank you for this. I have often considered the Secular Fanciscans, Dominicans and Opus Dei from time to time.

The church never changed it’s doctrine on no salvation outside of the church. who told you this?

It sounds to me as if you are looking for a reason to leave so that you can live in sinfulness that the church does not allow.

She will still be here for you when that has taken it’s course and all else has failed, as it will.

See this right here is part of my issue friend. A lot of my problems are at times treated as excuse hunting. Especally when a response can’t be found to them.

You really should take another look at the RCC. I cannot seem to think that people who say that they explore the RCC more, the further they are away from it. It should be the total opposite if you do correct research and find that it is the truth.
The ADF isn’t good dude, and I will pray for you. May God have mercy on you.

Thank you for this Righteusone. I shall return the favor (as I understand it from a Catholic viewpoint are prayers that are answered are answered by God).

Why look for an imitation of the Catholic Church?

Well when you hit a point that you believe it is false. Time to start asking questions.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Hello cyber,

Ok, without getting too deep into why you have lost confidence in your Faith, I just need to make a few comments.

First of all the church has two aspects: it is a community of people, followers of Christ, and in a community setting it is also an institution. Most of us here have come to believe in the Jesus of Nazareth for any number of reasons, including such varied ways as the witnessing of miracles and exercises in logic.

But here we are, believers in the divinity of Christ.

I personally believe because of the Gospel witness, and the knowledge that most of the Apostles, the actual first generation of people who knew Him intimately, willingly suffered brutality and death to spread His message, His Truth to us. That was early on a powerful witness to me.

The institution of the church rises out of this crowd of witnesses, this community of believers. That’s where the councils and decrees and everything become important for us. It can indeed seem pretty legalistic, and depending upon one’s resources it can seem contradictory at times.

But we start out as believers first, and we build upon that. I am sorry that we have become such a poor witness for you.

But there is no sense in putting the cart before the horse. If you don’t start out believing in Christ, in some fashion, even in the most basic bare-bones way…you simply don’t need a church, it’s Sacraments, Councils and it’s Creed. It ultimately will not sustain you.

There is no “perfect” anything but God Himself. As believing human creatures we are in no way perfect, and the church reflects our human frailty. We don’t shop for Truth. Christianity is a revealed religion, and we take it straight, no chaser.

The problem I see with these modern choices you are able to select from is that they don’t come from the Divine, they are made up out of someone’s head.

There isn’t much good information about what real druids believed any more. Therefore “neo” druidism, too bad really. I am curious to know, is the emphasis of this group about the gods they worship, or the fact that one can be a druid, know special things and participate in interesting ceremonies?

We cannot stand in the tradition of real druids because they have been gone a long time, and if you could have been there with them 1600 years ago, would you really have liked what you learned about them, would you really want that for yourself?

Ask yourself…do you need those gods for some reason? Is it that you have this compelling need to submit yourself to them, or is there an attraction to possibly control the gods?

And something we all need to ask ourselves, not just for you: would you be willing to die for that faith of yours?

Good luck on your spiritual journey.

Michael

Thank you Michael this is a lot to chew on. My reasons for interest in Druidism isn’t so much submitting or controlling.

It is a relationship of friends with the Gods I feel pulled to, as well as the spirits and my most distant ancestors.

I thought I had this in the communion of Saints. Yet apparently from another talk I had it’s not really the communion I thought it was.

You can look up my “Prayers to Saints being watered down” thread for this one.

Basically I thought the Saints existed to help us grow in our Faith with God. Now I’ve been told it’s just talking to God under a different name, which honestly sounds more like Pantheism than Monotheism.

Many beings to communion with all of them God.

For some, it is because THIS ONE lights up life too much, that the receding shadows afford very little hiding places!

For some, it is preferable to search for hope that The Church is wrong, than to persevere to the end in the hope of The Church.

For others, it is just a ‘protest’

What about when one finds what he feels to be evidence the Church is false and can’t disprove it?

 

[cyberwolf001]

The Church has never, and will never, change it’s infallible dogma of “Outside the Catholic Church is no salvation.” I know it is frustrating because the vast majority of lay Catholics and nearly all of the hierarchy try to make this dogma into a “meaningless formula”, going great lengths and all the semantic acrobatics to try and prove that the dogma of “Outside the Catholic Church is no salvation” to REALLY mean “Outside the Catholic Church is salvation”; it is really annoying when they say, “This just means all salvation comes through the Catholic Church, not that you have to be inside the Church to be saved” (HELLO, it says “outside of”, not “without the existence of”!), or worse yet, they try to actually change the definition of “Church” to mean something other than the one, perpetually visible Apostolic Catholic Church of Rome, with the Pope as its visible head! But no matter–they cannot and will not be able to EVER changed this dogma which has been defined infallibly by three different popes in the clearest and most literal of terms. A pope will never be able to speak “ex cathedra” and reverse this dogma; and so we will just have to pray and wait for the time when, once again, a Pope will have to speak from the chair and reiterate what past popes have already said: that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church, that all who are outside of her will be damned, that this is the only ark of salvation and whoever is outside of it will perish in the flood. So yes, you do in fact have to be a “card-carrying Catholic” to get into heaven!

This is one thing I mean. I have heard this said very often, yet others on this very forum say it is not correct. Which one is right?

I’ve seen quotes from Popes on both sides supposedly speaking “Ex Cathedra” on it. That was the stake through the heart of my faith.

Hi Rusty,

In November 25, 2006, in your first post, you mentioned about wanting to join the Catholic Church. I am wondering, how long you have been Catholic? I think you might want to discuss more with your priest to really understand the issues you are having.

God bless.

I have considered it. One Priest is a good man but don’t think he understands, though I love him like a Grandfather.

Then other I get the strong feeling is trying to pressure me into go Monastic. Another issue of mine, I am tired of feeling pressured to Celibacy, if it is God’s will I shall know in time. I wish everyone would back off and let it work as it will.

---

There’s other issues of course (homosexuality, the anti-sex thing). Yet I set those aside happily as well if there is a God and he declared such that’s it.

---

Sorry for all the post wanted to get this in as few replies as possible.

 

[HashemEchad]

Like the title says. The more I’ve explored my faith, the more I find contradictions, arrogance and bigotry.

When I’ve pushed for answers in RL I get evasive answers that just have to go through all kinds of councils and the stories surrounding them. Regardless of weather or not it has any bearing on my question.

The Church has changed at least one of it’s infallible doctirnes “No Salvation Outside the church” of course there has been all sorts of somatic(spelling?) acrobatics to explain this away. But the bottom line is the Church once infallible taught that all outside the Catholic Church went to hell, no exceptions.

Now it’s been changed to some nebulous list of yes buts and all kinds of fluff that can’t seem to explain how to make it to Heaven. I’ve had a few discussions here that basically came down to your odds are slim to zero and even the sacraments are of little use it stopping it.

The only thing that seems to be agreed one is sex that doesn’t give birth to new babies is a very bad thing.

For this reason I have decided to join the ADF (Ian Corrigan’s organization) soon as I am able. As I have posted here a lot over the past year I decided to let this be my good bye message.

Take care everyone.

I find this topic interesting. I’ve met many Wiccans in my lifetime, and without exception, every one was a former Catholic! Is there a reason for this? I’m wondering, as a Jew.

It looks to me as if the OP is upset because the Catholic church seems to have changed their basic beliefs. If that’s the problem, why not consider the Traditional Roman Catholics with the Tridentine Latin Mass? They have not changed.

 

[cyberwolf001]

I find this topic interesting. I’ve met many Wiccans in my lifetime, and without exception, every one was a former Catholic! Is there a reason for this? I’m wondering, as a Jew.

I’ve noticed this also. They are either former Catholics or join the Catholic church briefly or for sometime.

 

[Pete_1]

that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church, that all who are outside of her will be damned, that this is the only ark of salvation and whoever is outside of it will perish in the flood. So yes, you do in fact have to be a “card-carrying Catholic” to get into heaven!

Do you have a source for this?

This is what St Augustine says on the matter:

“The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics” (*Letters *43:1 [A.D. 412]).

                    **When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body**. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark (ibid., 5:28[39]).

from
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909frs.asp

In addition The CCC Itself contradicts you.

How are we to understand this affirmation “Outside the Church, no salvation”], often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church which is his body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
(CCC 846).

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).

An apologist recommended this book on the issue.
“Can Outsiders Be Insiders” by Fr. Peter Stravinskas:

 

[ralphinal]

Cyber,
God bless you on your journey. May you come to the Truth as you go.

I have seen lots of explinations as to why so many Wiccans come from Catholicism. Many of them seem to seek a more “equal” place for women, or even a role of dominance for them. Some are already used to ritual, so it is empowering to be able to perform religious rituals for themselves. Wicca is a personally empowering religion, and as such will appeal to a certain percentage of the people. Some are part of it for pure shock value as well. Most, like everyone else (including our friend Cyber here), are on a journey to find something spiritual in their lives that they cannot exactly find. Hopefully, when they find rest, it will be with Christ.

 

[Mickey]

I have seen lots of explinations as to why so many Wiccans come from Catholicism. Many of them seem to seek a more “equal” place for women, or even a role of dominance for them.

Wiccanism seems to have close ties with the new age movement and radical feminism.

 

[water]

I have considered it. One Priest is a good man but don’t think he understands, though I love him like a Grandfather.

Then other I get the strong feeling is trying to pressure me into go Monastic. Another issue of mine, I am tired of feeling pressured to Celibacy, if it is God’s will I shall know in time. I wish everyone would back off and let it work as it will.

There’s other issues of course (homosexuality, the anti-sex thing). Yet I set those aside happily as well if there is a God and he declared such that’s it.

Yes, pray about it before meeting a priest. If one priest does not understand you, you could pray more and seek another one.

No one should pressure you into Monastic. It is God’s call and we just respond to it. No one will discern this call for you except yourself.

About homosexuality, I don’t know exactly the issue that you might have.

You could think about how you first believe in God and use that …pray more and ask God to guide you.

 

[IanCorrigan]

I’m going to comment on this thread, just because I like to track neopagan discussion on this board, and 'cause my name was mentioned : ) I’ll try not to turn it into a half-dozen posts…

For this reason I have decided to join the ADF (Ian Corrigan’s organization) soon as I am able. As I have posted here a lot over the past year I decided to let this be my good bye message.

Take care everyone.

To be very clear at the outset, ADF is ‘my’ organization only in that I’ve been committed to it for the last 18 or so years of my 30+ years in Pagan ways. I have written some key material for it, and am involved in the current ‘old boy and girl’ network, but ADF is a gathering of hundreds of members and dozens of leaders.

For a look see www.adf.org (no preaching please… we’re quite immune)

Cyberwolf will be welcome among us, I’m sure - but changing religions is always a strange moment in life. As another poster said, ADF is a gathering of humans, prone to the usual human problems when one gets an organization of dozens of local chapters and a widely distributed national membership. Yes, we have fights and failings, but we keep building and improving our spiritual work.

Paganism offers a variety of easy-to-begin personal spiritual practices, which we expect to produce direct personal experiences of the Gods and Spirits. Of course, all RCC doctrine aside, we know the Gods and Spirits to be divine beings, and we expect and receive every blessing one would expect from the divine, and maybe some that wouldn’t be on an RCC list. So if cyberwolf takes up the work we offer and does it diligently he should get the basic good our way has to offer - from there he can decide how much ‘church’ he can stand with his religion.

Those who want to read some old stuff might want to look in the archives here for ‘neo-pagan apologetics’. I wrote a detailed answer to the ‘anti-neopagan apologetics’ article on the CAF website. It was posted here and we had a nice chat.

Spring blessings on all
Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

Why look for an imitation of the Catholic Church?

We joke about that, somewhat. Our founder did admire several things about the organization of the RCC, including its ability to build great temples and actually support a whole class of professional religious practitioners.

Of course the RCC was permitted to take all the gold and buildings from the pre-existing religions of the Pagan world. That did give them an early advantage. We’re still in the first-100-year bootstrap stage.
Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

There isn’t much good information about what real druids believed any more. Therefore “neo” druidism, too bad really. I am curious to know, is the emphasis of this group about the gods they worship, or the fact that one can be a druid, know special things and participate in interesting ceremonies?

We cannot stand in the tradition of real druids because they have been gone a long time, and if you could have been there with them 1600 years ago, would you really have liked what you learned about them, would you really want that for yourself?

Ask yourself…do you need those gods for some reason? Is it that you have this compelling need to submit yourself to them, or is there an attraction to possibly control the gods?

And something we all need to ask ourselves, not just for you: would you be willing to die for that faith of yours?

Michael

ADF’s sort of neo-Druidry draws on 4 or 5 sources to reconstruct our practices. First we have the descriptions of the classical authors, each of various value, but together creating some impression of the Druids. Second we have archeology, which tends to confirm or deny material in the other sources. Third we have the insular Gaelic and Welsh literature, the so-called ‘Celtic mythology’ which has plenty of scholastic difficulty of its own. Fourth we have the remnants of practices and ideas found in ‘folk’ traditions recorded in the 17th - 19th centuries and even today. Fifth we have comparative mythology and folklore, from neighboring cultures, especially in the Indo-European family. Together these have allowed us to compose a ritual and devotional practice that we hope the ancestors would recognize if they saw it. In any case, it is succeeding in bringing us into contact with the Gods and Spirits.

In general we look to build relationship with the deities, and with the spirits of our local landscape. Different people choose different deities according to our inclination, and many people build a personal, loving, devotional relationship with one or more deities. Our discourse doesn’t really talk about ‘submission’, and Paganism has almost always considered it impious to attempt to ‘control’ the gods. Instead we give and are given to, we love and are loved.

As to dieing for my spiritual path… I’d fight for it, but I’d prefer to come out alive. Martyrdom is no virtue in anyone, imo.
Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

I find this topic interesting. I’ve met many Wiccans in my lifetime, and without exception, every one was a former Catholic! Is there a reason for this? I’m wondering, as a Jew.

Depends on where you are - on the east coast the witches are often former (and still in a cultural sense) Jews. Actual demographics find that Pagans reflect local religious populations pretty closely - I’ve been to some pretty ‘protestant-style’ cirlces, in which worship was three songs and a sermon… eeewww
Ian

 

[Righteousone]

Why do you call Wicca a religion?? It is a cult. It rejects Jesus christ and all that is taught by him.

A woman asked me once to go to her son’s “baptismal” in her Wicca cult. I wanted to throw up. I would never attend any ‘service’ that is a lie. I feel bad for that child.

 

[HashemEchad]

Why do you call Wicca a religion?? It is a cult. It rejects Jesus christ and all that is taught by him.

A woman asked me once to go to her son’s “baptismal” in her Wicca cult. I wanted to throw up. I would never attend any ‘service’ that is a lie. I feel bad for that child.

How are you defining a ‘cult’? Because there are many who say Roman Catholicism is also a ‘cult’.

 

[Righteousone]

How are you defining a ‘cult’? Because there are many who say Roman Catholicism is also a ‘cult’.

Oh please…I won’t even go there…

 

[jblake]

ralphinal;:

Hopefully, when they find rest, it will be with Christ.

There is Christian-Wicca.

xan

jonathon