Leaving tradition out of the discussion, how do non-Catholics make sense of this apparent inconsistency?

[Nicea325]

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

I think that correction of teaching is also part of the correction. Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians to address the very teaching of false gospels. Why would he use an example of correcting Peter if it did not have doctrinal issues.

Gal 1

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Sorry,but you incorrect again. The issue is NOT DOCTRINAL,but to Peter’s conduct at Antioch, where he refused to eat with Gentile Christians in order not to offend certain Jews from Palestine (Gal. 2:11–16). For this Paul rebuked him. Did this demonstrate papal infallibility was non-existent? Nope! More important, the Apostle Peter’s actions involved matters of discipline, not with issues of faith or morals.

Likwise, the problem was Peter’s actions, not his teaching. Paul acknowledged that Peter very well knew the correct teaching (Gal. 2:12–13). The problem was that he wasn’t living up to his own teaching. Thus, in this instance, Peter was not doing any teaching; much less was he solemnly defining a matter of faith or morals.

 

[JonNC]

=joe370;7733357]Hey Christis, sola scriptura takes the authority out of the hands of the church and places that authority in the hands of each and every Christian as they are moved by the holy spirit. If the authority of the church, founded by Jesus, as His church leaders are moved by the HS, cannot be trusted then why should the authority of each and every Christian, as they are moved by the HS - be trusted?

Actually, Joe, it doesn’t. SS is a practice, a basis for hermeunetics, which is practiced by the Church, not by individuals.

But you make a good point, regarding trusting Church leaders, and one of the complaints of the reformers was that coucnils and popes contradicted each other. There is at least some proof of this in the Great Schism.
Therefore, every effort should be made to seek reconciliation.

Jon

Jon

 

[MDK]

Actually, Joe, it doesn’t. SS is a practice, a basis for hermeunetics, which is practiced by the Church, not by individuals.

But you make a good point, regarding trusting Church leaders, and one of the complaints of the reformers was that coucnils and popes contradicted each other. There is at least some proof of this in the Great Schism.
Therefore, every effort should be made to seek reconciliation.

Jon

Jon

Jon,

C’mon… Are you really going to come here and tell us that Sola Scriptura is not practiced by individual Protestants? I see it all the time from them. They usually combine listening to one or more speakers with their own Scripture interpretations. If they don’t agree with someone, they just usually move to someone else whom they do agree, and so the religion is essentially of their own making. So, do you really think we’ll believe that despite all the evidence to the contrary?

Another issue you’ve got to wrestle with is where in the Bible do you find that the “Bible alone” is the rule of faith? It’s just not there. Kind of ironic that the “Bible alone” is not in the Bible, isn’t it? Kind of ironic that the “Bible alone” is simply man’s tradition. Sola Scriptura is not only un-Biblical, it’s anti-Scriptural. It’s one of the traditions of men that Scriptures teach against.

Next problem you’ve got is that Lutheran is not even God’s Church. Sadly for you guys who are attached to it, It’s not a legitimate “Church” in the proper sense. It really doesn’t matter if there are many nice people that attend, or whether you think it is. What matters is what God has established.

I assume you say you care about what God established. If so, then why not really investigate the overwhelming evidence that Protestantism is man made, and really doesn’t reliably teach the truth of God.

The Bible - you got it from us Catholics, then threw out 7 books you didn’t like.
The Truth you have - you got it from us Catholics, but won’t admit it.
The heresies - they’re your own. We don’t have any to give you.

It’s an important matter. I ask you to look around and ask why all the different Protestant denominations conflict with each other on issues if the Holy Spirit is really leading them… by logic then, some have to be false… evidence is the Holy Spirit is not leading them to these false ideas. The Holy Spirit does not lead to the divisions and heresies in Protestantism. The Holy Spirit unites us in Christ in one teaching body established by Christ… His one Catholic Church. He made it for you to be a member. Will you continue to say no to God?

 

[Nicea325]

Jon,

C’mon… Are you really going to come here and tell us that Sola Scriptura is not practiced by individual Protestants? I see it all the time from them. They usually combine listening to one or more speakers with their own Scripture interpretations. If they don’t agree with someone, they just usually move to someone else whom they do agree, and so the religion is essentially of their own making. So, do you really think we’ll believe that despite all the evidence to the contrary?

Another issue you’ve got to wrestle with is where in the Bible do you find that the “Bible alone” is the rule of faith? It’s just not there. Kind of ironic that the “Bible alone” is not in the Bible, isn’t it? Kind of ironic that the “Bible alone” is simply man’s tradition. Sola Scriptura is not only un-Biblical, it’s anti-Scriptural. It’s one of the traditions of men that Scriptures teach against.

Next problem you’ve got is that Lutheran is not even God’s Church. Sadly for you guys who are attached to it, It’s not a legitimate “Church” in the proper sense. It really doesn’t matter if there are many nice people that attend, or whether you think it is. What matters is what God has established.

I assume you say you care about what God established. If so, then why not really investigate the overwhelming evidence that Protestantism is man made, and really doesn’t reliably teach the truth of God.

The Bible - you got it from us Catholics, then threw out 7 books you didn’t like.
The Truth you have - you got it from us Catholics, but won’t admit it.
The heresies - they’re your own. We don’t have any to give you.

It’s an important matter. I ask you to look around and ask why all the different Protestant denominations conflict with each other on issues if the Holy Spirit is really leading them… by logic then, some have to be false… evidence is the Holy Spirit is not leading them to these false ideas. The Holy Spirit does not lead to the divisions and heresies in Protestantism. The Holy Spirit unites us in Christ in one teaching body established by Christ… His one Catholic Church. He made it for you to be a member. Will you continue to say no to God?

Hey take it easy…Jon is nice guy. He is very easy to discuss and not hostile.

 

[MDK]

Hey take it easy…Jon is nice guy. He is very easy to discuss and not hostile.

…and I don’t see any hostility toward Jon here. Are you really saying that we should withhold the truth, because he can’t take it, or because he doesn’t deserve it but we do? It would appear that anyone who has posted 6,000 times on a Catholic board really needs to have the truth given to them straight. Love is sharing the truth, and those who love should guide people to Christ, should we not? If you’re aware of anything in there that was wrong, I’ll correct it. I believe Jon deserves the truth, just as we do. Protestantism is not freedom, but bondage to falsehoods and distortions of Christ. Catholicism is freedom with the truth. What do we want for Jon, the truth or falsehoods? I appreciate the truth from people.

 

[JonNC]

=MDK;7753970]Jon,

C’mon… Are you really going to come here and tell us that Sola Scriptura is not practiced by individual Protestants? I see it all the time from them. They usually combine listening to one or more speakers with their own Scripture interpretations. If they don’t agree with someone, they just usually move to someone else whom they do agree, and so the religion is essentially of their own making. So, do you really think we’ll believe that despite all the evidence to the contrary?

Hi MDK,
No, I’m telling you that is not how SS is supposed to be used, at least from a Lutheran perspective. What other communions do is up to them to explain.

This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… We also gratefully and reverently use the labors of the fathers who by their commentaries have profitably clarified many passages of the Scripture. And we confess that we are greatly confirmed by the testimonies of the ancient church in the true and sound understanding of the Scripture. Nor do we approve of it if someone invents for himself a meaning which conflicts with all antiquity, and for which there are clearly no testimonies of the church. - Martin Chemnitz

Another issue you’ve got to wrestle with is where in the Bible do you find that the “Bible alone” is the rule of faith? It’s just not there. Kind of ironic that the “Bible alone” is not in the Bible, isn’t it? Kind of ironic that the “Bible alone” is simply man’s tradition. Sola Scriptura is not only un-Biblical, it’s anti-Scriptural. It’s one of the traditions of men that Scriptures teach against.

Scripture, in Lutheran belief, is the final norm, so in that sense it is the “sole” rule of faith. That does not exclude the necessity of teachers and teachings, councils and creeds. It simply places those things as subject to scripture. Now, unless you are willing to say that there are Catholic teachings that are contrary to scripture (and I don’t believe that the CC believes there are), Catholic Tradition and scripture teaches essentially the same thing.

Next problem you’ve got is that Lutheran is not even God’s Church. Sadly for you guys who are attached to it, It’s not a legitimate “Church” in the proper sense. It really doesn’t matter if there are many nice people that attend, or whether you think it is. What matters is what God has established.

You are correct. It is not “a” Church, but we are certainly part of “THE” Church.

I assume you say you care about what God established. If so, then why not really investigate the overwhelming evidence that Protestantism is man made, and really doesn’t reliably teach the truth of God.

Well, certainly your tone doesn’t make such a strong invitation to investigate your POV. Let’s just say, however, that I am here.

The Bible - you got it from us Catholics, then threw out 7 books you didn’t like.

Indeed true, on the first part. On the second, you’re smart enough to know that this polemic is as simplistic as those who say that Catholics added books.

The Truth you have - you got it from us Catholics, but won’t admit it.

I stand with Fr. Martin, when he said that all that we know of the catholic faith we received from the Catholic Church. I don’t just admit it, I thank God for it.

It’s an important matter. I ask you to look around and ask why all the different Protestant denominations conflict with each other on issues if the Holy Spirit is really leading them… by logic then, some have to be false… evidence is the Holy Spirit is not leading them to these false ideas.

Why must I look at other communions? They, not I, are responsible for what they teach, nor am I obliged to defend them. They are apable of their own defense. But even at that…
CCC #819

"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

If the Catholic Church says that Christ’s Spirit uses my “ecclesial community” as a means of salvation, why would you say we are not being led by the Spirit?

The Holy Spirit does not lead to the divisions and heresies in Protestantism. The Holy Spirit unites us in Christ in one teaching body established by Christ… His one Catholic Church. He made it for you to be a member. Will you continue to say no to God?

And I pray that the Spirit will continue to lead us all into reconciliation and unity, either here, or in the Church Triumphant.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

…and I don’t see any hostility toward Jon here. Are you really saying that we should withhold the truth, because he can’t take it, or because he doesn’t deserve it but we do? It would appear that anyone who has posted 6,000 times on a Catholic board really needs to have the truth given to them straight. Love is sharing the truth, and those who love should guide people to Christ, should we not? If you’re aware of anything in there that was wrong, I’ll correct it. I believe Jon deserves the truth, just as we do. Protestantism is not freedom, but bondage to falsehoods and distortions of Christ. Catholicism is freedom with the truth. What do we want for Jon, the truth or falsehoods? I appreciate the truth from people.

There’s a lot of hostility that goes back and forth here. Sometimes its hard to read the intent and emotions of printed words.

I appreciate both Nicea’s charity and your desire to share your strong faith.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

…and I don’t see any hostility toward Jon here. Are you really saying that we should withhold the truth, because he can’t take it, or because he doesn’t deserve it but we do? It would appear that anyone who has posted 6,000 times on a Catholic board really needs to have the truth given to them straight. Love is sharing the truth, and those who love should guide people to Christ, should we not? If you’re aware of anything in there that was wrong, I’ll correct it. I believe Jon deserves the truth, just as we do. Protestantism is not freedom, but bondage to falsehoods and distortions of Christ. Catholicism is freedom with the truth. What do we want for Jon, the truth or falsehoods? I appreciate the truth from people.

MDK, look I totally understand you and trust me, I do. I once was very hostile towards many Protestants,but as I have grown older, I learned being open-minded and listening to the other side, allows for much better dialogue. However, we also need to be ecumenical with our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. If unity is the goal,then also as Catholics need to allow them room to express their differences as well as sharing our common grounds. Not that I expect you to agree or accept,but only expressing my method.

God Bless

 

[MDK]

There’s a lot of hostility that goes back and forth here. Sometimes its hard to read the intent and emotions of printed words.

I appreciate both Nicea’s charity and your desire to share your strong faith.

Jon

This board often confuses “charity” with simple politeness or meekness. But, that just is like political correctness to put a muzzle on truth. By many people’s definition of “charity”, Jesus would have been uncharitable. In truth, Charity has to do with love.

Can we really say there is virtue in politely distorting the word of God by using falsehoods, and claiming man’s teachings about God are equal to or greater than God’s actual teachings, when in reality this is nothing but violence and hostility to the truth. Falsehoods are violence to the truth of Christ, and they damage anyone who adopts them. There is hostility in falsehoods, and there is charity in truth.

 

[MDK]

MDK, look I totally understand you and trust me, I do. I once was very hostile towards many Protestants,but as I have grown older, I learned being open-minded and listening to the other side, allows for much better dialogue. However, we also need to be ecumenical with our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. If unity is the goal,then also as Catholics need to allow them room to express their differences as well as sharing our common grounds. Not that I expect you to agree or accept,but only expressing my method.

God Bless

Nicea, I appreciate the attempt, but your words indicate that you really don’t understand me. I oppose Protestantism, not the person. I oppose it because it hurts people whom Christ died for. It damages unity that Christ asked for. It harms the Body of Christ. And, if you assume I’m not open-minded, then you’re likewise off track. I do and have listened to the “other side”, often to hear where they’re wrong so I can help. I say “other side” because they’re really not the other side, but many allegedly are on the same side, or at least claim to be. I’m open minded to the truth of God by God. There is value in true ecumenism, and I engage in it regularly with Protestants and Protestantic Catholics. But, I don’t think there is virtue or value in engaging in false ecumenism, where people stroke each other while the truth is sacrificed at the altar of getting along in a false peace. I’m really not open to the violence against His word, His Bride, His mother, or the revealed attributes of the Godhead. I don’t really find virtue in being polite and calm while distorting Christ’s word and presenting falsehoods about Christ. To me, it’s not reasonable that any reasonably intelligent person who truly loves God and who sees with their eyes the train wreck of Protestantism can honestly prefer it to God’s full revealed truth and His Sacraments. I don’t think God intended for you and I to be graced with this and others be blinded by man’s fallacies about Him.

There is peace when we all are in Christ, as He intended, provisioned for, and asks of all of us.

 

[MDK]

Hi MDK,
No, I’m telling you that is not how SS is supposed to be used, at least from a Lutheran perspective. What other communions do is up to them to explain.

Neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit ever taught Sola Scriptura, In God’s eyes, His Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and His Church authored the New Testament as a Catholic document. Lutheran is a man made tradition that contradicts God’s will in many ways. To say “SS is supposed to be used” any kind of way is to say there’s a right way to do a wrong thing.

Scripture, in Lutheran belief, is the final norm, so in that sense it is the “sole” rule of faith. That does not exclude the necessity of teachers and teachings, councils and creeds. It simply places those things as subject to scripture. Now, unless you are willing to say that there are Catholic teachings that are contrary to scripture (and I don’t believe that the CC believes there are), Catholic Tradition and scripture teaches essentially the same thing.

Does it bother you in the least that God never said Scriptures are the sole rule of faith?

You are correct. It is not “a” Church, but we are certainly part of “THE” Church.

You as a Christian are part of God’s Church by Baptism. A Lutheran “minister” is not a minister of God’s Church. You don’t attend God’s Church when you attend a Lutheran service.

Well, certainly your tone doesn’t make such a strong invitation to investigate your POV. Let’s just say, however, that I am here.

The tone is one of respect for Christ. Please join me in not distorting His word.

Indeed true, on the first part. On the second, you’re smart enough to know that this polemic is as simplistic as those who say that Catholics added books.

No, I’m smart enough to know the first canon of Scripture in 382 AD had 73 books. I’m smart enough to know the first Bible off Gutenberg’s printing press had 73 books. I’m smart enough to know that the Bibles Martin Luther studied to become a priest had 73 books. And, I’m smart enough to know that Luther leaving God’s Church threw out 7 OT books, and would have liked to throw out James as well, all because they didn’t agree with his Theology.

It’s absolutely true to say Protestants threw out 7 books of the authentic Bible.
It’s a falsehood to say Catholics added books.
To relegate it to a polemical statement shows a lack of knowledge of history and truth. To say there is some moral equivalency between the Catholic truth and the Protestant falsehood is to be ignorant of history to say the least.

I stand with Fr. Martin, when he said that all that we know of the catholic faith we received from the Catholic Church. I don’t just admit it, I thank God for it.

This is partially good, but troubling that you think the faith is simply small “c”. This is a good start, but you’ve got no valid reason for not being in God’s Church that starts with a capital “C”.

The troubling part is that you threw out much of the truth from the Catholic Church for obviously no valid reason. Your “thankfulness” is like a backhanded compliment. It says God’s Catholic Church was good enough to provide some truth, but we’ve improved on it and got it right. So, while your statement sounds grateful, it really arrogant and prideful.

Why must I look at other communions? They, not I, are responsible for what they teach, nor am I obliged to defend them. They are apable of their own defense. But even at that…
CCC #819

Your response doesn’t indicate an understanding of, or is perhaps a dodge of my question. To clarify, I didn’t ask you to defend them. I asked you to look around at the other ecclesial communities who use the same foundations as Lutheranism, and ask yourself why they teach something conflicting. The obvious observation here is that Sola Scriptura doesn’t work in determining the truth of God. But, your response is typical of Protestants not daring to look at this truth.

If the Catholic Church says that Christ’s Spirit uses my “ecclesial community” as a means of salvation, why would you say we are not being led by the Spirit?

God didn’t establish any of the thousands of Protestant ecclesial communities,. So, no, He didn’t establish any of them as a means of Salvation. God’s Catholic Church says the communities of faith that were born of the Protestant Revolt lack valid holy orders from the Apostles and not validly God’s Church. Your salvation in a Protestant ecclesial community is in part dependent on your ignorance that you’re not attending His Church.

And I pray that the Spirit will continue to lead us all into reconciliation and unity, either here, or in the Church Triumphant.

Jon

Unity can only come from people abandoning their man made ecclesial communities and coming to God’s Church as He intended. I very much hope you do make it to the Church triumphant, at which time you will be Catholic.

 

[MDK]

Hi MDK,…

If the Catholic Church says that Christ’s Spirit uses my “ecclesial community” as a means of salvation, why would you say we are not being led by the Spirit?

…Jon

Let’s please not oversimplify and lose the meaning of what was said. I said the Holy Spirit is not leading Christianity into the divisions of Protestantism. I say this because the Holy Spirit unites in Christ, not divides. I also said the Holy Spirit does not lead Protestantism into the multiple heresies that exist in Protestantism. Protestantism could not have been founded without heresies, like Sola Scriptura for one.

I’ll add that the Holy Spirit is not protecting Protestantism from teaching error in faith and morals. Evidence is that Protestantism teaches many, many errors in faith and morals. Lutheranism is founded on distortions and false claims about God’s revelation.

So, while individuals may have some gift(s) of the Holy Spirit, they often either aren’t graced or ignore His grace to come to the truth. The Protestant community is not led by the Holy Spirit to all truth like God’s Catholic Church is. The promise in Scriptures is made ONLY to God’s Church, the Catholic Church with Pope as visible head. That’s just the way God set things up. Any complaints about what He did is a complaint about the perfect One, the Holy One, the Lord of all creation.

 

[joe370]

Amen to the idea of every effort being made, by all churches, to seek reconciliation, just as is the case between the Lutheran and Catholic church. Gosh, I want that so much!!!

If you get the time could you give me some examples of the reformers claiming that the councils and popes contradicted each other, regarding doctrinal truth? I don’t see proof of this, regarding the popes, in the great east - west schism, nor do I see it in the ecumenical councils, other than the filioque and apostolic authority, and of course either the EOC is right or the CC is right - negating the contradiction altogether, if in fact God is still forever guiding His church into all truth. It just doesn’t make sense, to me anyway, to discard the doctrinal integrity of both churches, in the face of doctrinal division that took place between these 2 churches, even if it has only to do with a few minor teachings, such as the filioque; we should, based on our individual discernment, pick one of these churches, having faith that one of these churches continues to be overshadowed by the power of God, until the end of time. Jettisoning both churches, when conflicting views and contradictions arise, seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the baby water, in favor of a brand new baby, metaphorically speaking, founded by mere human. Certainly one of these churches (both of which are in fact apostolic churches) - is either right on all matters of doctrinal truth, due to the perpetual guidance of God, until the end of time, or God is not guiding either church into all truth? The sin of man, due to Satan, surely cannot alter the course of God’s church in time and space, doctrinally speaking? If it could then something is in fact impossible for God.

It occurred to me, one day, long ago: to doubt that God could/can continue to protect and safeguard truth from within the church He established, here on earth, until His glorious return, in a way, is an insult to His divinity. Well, that’s just my take on it, as a very fallible man, and I could be wrong, but it does feel right.

Jon, you and I have discussed this before; what am I missing? I mean, either God can do this or He cannot or He chooses not to…

Your thoughts my brother…

.

Actually, Joe, it doesn’t. SS is a practice, a basis for hermeunetics, which is practiced by the Church, not by individuals.

But you make a good point, regarding trusting Church leaders, and one of the complaints of the reformers was that coucnils and popes contradicted each other. There is at least some proof of this in the Great Schism.
Therefore, every effort should be made to seek reconciliation.

Jon

Jon

 

[MDK]

Hi MDK,…
Scripture, in Lutheran belief, is the final norm, so in that sense it is the “sole” rule of faith. That does not exclude the necessity of teachers and teachings, councils and creeds. It simply places those things as subject to scripture. Now, unless you are willing to say that there are Catholic teachings that are contrary to scripture (and I don’t believe that the CC believes there are), Catholic Tradition and scripture teaches essentially the same thing.

A simple question… if any of us distort the meaning(s) of Scripture (even well intended, yet ignorant) and believe those (self made) distorted meanings in our hearts and minds, and lives them in our lives, are we then living our own word or God’s true word?

This is why it’s important to ensure you’re only listening to God’s word as He taught. His protection for this teaching exists ONLY in His Catholic Church.

When you listen to the many and serious distortions of Lutheranism for example, you’re not reliably getting God’s word (except that which happens to agree with His Catholic Church teachings). Lutheranism has zero promise of protection against the gates of Hell… and the gates of Hell prevailed in the very formation of the Lutheran ecclesial community as it was built by man and not God.

You are correct. It is not “a” Church, but we are certainly part of “THE” Church.

…Jon

You are a person are part of God’s Church by Baptism.

The Lutheran ecclesial community is not validly God’s Church (lacking authority from the Apostles, which was given by God to His Church), rather is a very fallible Bible study community that teaches many falsehoods about God’s Scriptures (Bible being a Catholic document, NT authored by Catholic men and OT is the foreshadowing and roots of Catholicism). To say Lutheranism is unreliable in teaching God’s word is a very generous understatement, since its very foundation is on heresies, established lacking protection from God given to the Church He built (Catholic).

 

[MDK]

Hi MDK,…

…CCC #819

…Jon

So, if you agree with CCC paragraph 819, then you also agree that you’re in a Lutheran ecclesial community and not God’s Church; and you agree that any and all truth that exists in your Bible (alone) study ecclesial community is derived from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted only to the Catholic Church. Therefore, you must admit that any and all heresies you have are of your own making.

Question: do you think God is pleased that you reject His truth for your own heresies?

Like all Protestants, you pick and choose what you like and take things out of context as well. Context shows (CCC #816) ““The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.””

Another important teaching to help understand CCC 819 is CCC 846: …“they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

So, CCC 819 says that those Catholic teachings and God’s grace given to the Baptized who are found outside the formal Catholic Church, which are available to those ignorant of the Catholic Church was founded necessary by God through Christ, God’s love mercifully gives credit for your heart (ignorant of the the fact that He created the Catholic Church for us) adhering to the teachings because of Him, the efficacy of this salvation derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

Question: Since all the tools of salvation were given only to His Catholic Church, do you really think there are as many tools of salvation borrowed from Catholicism outside God’s Church as there are inside His Catholic Church?

So, it seems that you’re happily refusing to worship and receive grace in God’s Church, yet in a Bible study ecclesial community teaching some heresy along with some truth from God’s Catholic Church, believing you’re in a great position. I would not do what you do. I love and respect God more than to say man’s interpretations and teachings are as good or better than His. You’re telling Him that a Bible study ecclesial community teaching some Catholic truth with some Protestant heresy is good for you, but His Church teaching all truth is not… I wouldn’t bet my immortal soul on your gamble. I love Christ too much for that and desire to be close to Him in this world and the next.

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea, I appreciate the attempt, but your words indicate that you really don’t understand me. I oppose Protestantism, not the person. I oppose it because it hurts people whom Christ died for. It damages unity that Christ asked for. It harms the Body of Christ. And, if you assume I’m not open-minded, then you’re likewise off track. I do and have listened to the “other side”, often to hear where they’re wrong so I can help. I say “other side” because they’re really not the other side, but many allegedly are on the same side, or at least claim to be. I’m open minded to the truth of God by God. There is value in true ecumenism, and I engage in it regularly with Protestants and Protestantic Catholics. But, I don’t think there is virtue or value in engaging in false ecumenism, where people stroke each other while the truth is sacrificed at the altar of getting along in a false peace. I’m really not open to the violence against His word, His Bride, His mother, or the revealed attributes of the Godhead. I don’t really find virtue in being polite and calm while distorting Christ’s word and presenting falsehoods about Christ. To me, it’s not reasonable that any reasonably intelligent person who truly loves God and who sees with their eyes the train wreck of Protestantism can honestly prefer it to God’s full revealed truth and His Sacraments. I don’t think God intended for you and I to be graced with this and others be blinded by man’s fallacies about Him.

There is peace when we all are in Christ, as He intended, provisioned for, and asks of all of us.

I do understand you and I like you stand up for the Truth. However, if you are suggesting or assuming I am a Protestanic -Catholic you my friend are greatly mistaken.

 

[JonNC]

=MDK;7755295]Neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit ever taught Sola Scriptura, In God’s eyes, His Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and His Church authored the New Testament as a Catholic document. Lutheran is a man made tradition that contradicts God’s will in many ways. To say “SS is supposed to be used” any kind of way is to say there’s a right way to do a wrong thing.

I don’t deny that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Christ also did not teach that the The Church is found in one institutional, organization communion alone. The narrow triumphalism you espouse is also not taught as you claim it is.

Does it bother you in the least that God never said Scriptures are the sole rule of faith?

I’m not sure God ever mentions the word Magisterium, either. So, what teachings contrary to scripture are accepted by the Catholic Church, in communion with the Bishop of Rome?

You as a Christian are part of God’s Church by Baptism. A Lutheran “minister” is not a minister of God’s Church. You don’t attend God’s Church when you attend a Lutheran service.

I do not share the same feeling in reverse.

The tone is one of respect for Christ. Please join me in not distorting His word.

I don’t believe I do, at least not knowingly or intentionally, and I don’t believe Catholics knowingly or intentionally do, either.

No, I’m smart enough to know the first canon of Scripture in 382 AD had 73 books. I’m smart enough to know the first Bible off Gutenberg’s printing press had 73 books. I’m smart enough to know that the Bibles Martin Luther studied to become a priest had 73 books. And, I’m smart enough to know that Luther leaving God’s Church threw out 7 OT books, and would have liked to throw out James as well, all because they didn’t agree with his Theology.

Luther’s translation had 74 books. Can you specifically state which doctrine in each of the 7 books of the D-C’s that he didn’t agree with? Would you then say Cardinal Cajetan, who also stated they were not canon, referencing St. Jerome, threw them out for the same reason? You see, it isn’t as simplistic as you state.

It’s absolutely true to say Protestants threw out 7 books of the authentic Bible.
It’s a falsehood to say Catholics added books.
To relegate it to a polemical statement shows a lack of knowledge of history and truth. To say there is some moral equivalency between the Catholic truth and the Protestant falsehood is to be ignorant of history to say the least.

Thanks for your opinion.

This is partially good, but troubling that you think the faith is simply small “c”. This is a good start, but you’ve got no valid reason for not being in God’s Church that starts with a capital “C”.

You haven’t asked what my reasons are, so how could you know if they are valid?

The troubling part is that you threw out much of the truth from the Catholic Church for obviously no valid reason. Your “thankfulness” is like a backhanded compliment. It says God’s Catholic Church was good enough to provide some truth, but we’ve improved on it and got it right. So, while your statement sounds grateful, it really arrogant and prideful.

I’m sorry you feel the need to judge the sincerity of my statement.

Your response doesn’t indicate an understanding of, or is perhaps a dodge of my question. To clarify, I didn’t ask you to defend them. I asked you to look around at the other ecclesial communities who use the same foundations as Lutheranism, and ask yourself why they teach something conflicting. The obvious observation here is that Sola Scriptura doesn’t work in determining the truth of God. But, your response is typical of Protestants not daring to look at this truth.

Perhaps not, but then, there is division - standing twice as long as that within the western Church - which has nothing to do with sola scriptura.

God didn’t establish any of the thousands of Protestant ecclesial communities,. So, no, He didn’t establish any of them as a means of Salvation. God’s Catholic Church says the communities of faith that were born of the Protestant Revolt lack valid holy orders from the Apostles and not validly God’s Church. Your salvation in a Protestant ecclesial community is in part dependent on your ignorance that you’re not attending His Church.

My salvation is wholly dependent on the suffering, death, and ressurection of Christ the Savior. So is yours.

Unity can only come from people abandoning their man made ecclesial communities and coming to God’s Church as He intended.

And this thinking has worked so well the last 500 years.

I very much hope you do make it to the Church triumphant, at which time you will be Catholic.

And if that is the case, I will happily claim the title.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=MDK;7755148]This board often confuses “charity” with simple politeness or meekness. But, that just is like political correctness to put a muzzle on truth. By many people’s definition of “charity”, Jesus would have been uncharitable. In truth, Charity has to do with love.

Somehow, I’ve never equated Nicea325 with meekness.

Can we really say there is virtue in politely distorting the word of God by using falsehoods, and claiming man’s teachings about God are equal to or greater than God’s actual teachings, when in reality this is nothing but violence and hostility to the truth. Falsehoods are violence to the truth of Christ, and they damage anyone who adopts them. There is hostility in falsehoods, and there is charity in truth.

There is virtue in dialogue between Christians who present their viewpoints with charity, and prayerfully seek ways to unity. Somehow, ISTM, dialogue doesn’t start off very well when each side says, “you teach falsehoods”. One can only wonder how Pope Benedict’s visit to a Lutheran Church in Rome would have gone had either he or the Lutheran pastor had starting in that way.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=MDK;7757559]So, if you agree with CCC paragraph 819, then you also agree that you’re in a Lutheran ecclesial community and not God’s Church; and you agree that any and all truth that exists in your Bible (alone) study ecclesial community is derived from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted only to the Catholic Church. Therefore, you must admit that any and all heresies you have are of your own making.

No, its not my document. One might expect that you would be inclined to accept it, however.

Question: do you think God is pleased that you reject His truth for your own heresies?

You see, this is what I mean about dialogue. If it is your intent to shut off a discussion with me, just come out and say so.

Jon

 

[MDK]

I do understand you and I like you stand up for the Truth. However, if you are suggesting or assuming I am a Protestanic -Catholic you my friend are greatly mistaken.

Glad there is understanding now and some active respect for one another present. No, I’m not mistaken about you, as I didn’t suggest or assume anything of the sort. I did wonder if you would take it that way, but it was simply intended to show that I oppose Protestantism (deciding for ourselves what God wants to say to us) no matter where it occurs, inside God’s Church or outside.