Leaving tradition out of the discussion, how do non-Catholics make sense of this apparent inconsistency?

[StTommyMore]

The only we know what is to be considered Scripture is by the authority of the Catholic Church, who closed the Canon in AD 383 at the Council of Hippo

 

[MDK]

Do you consider the new testament scrripture MDK? Do you not think that the new testament is able to make us wise unto salvation?

Your words show it’s quite obvious you have no idea what I wrote. True to Protestantism, you take what I wrote outside of the context of the full writing and meaning, and you failed to interpret correctly. This is the same mess you make with God’s Scriptures. Please go back and read my post again, in its fullness together as it was intended. It would be beneficial for you to gain perspective. If you still don’t get it, let me know of your confusion and I’ll explain it further.

Here are some clues for you… in the very post that you replied to, I said “The Scriptures that would make up the New Testament books weren’t even completed at that time.” In a previous post to you, I wrote “Did you miss the part in Scriptures where John tells us…” John is a New Testament author, and so I refer to this NT as Scriptures. I also wrote in a post to you “Catholics believe Scripture is indeed very profitable, just as the Catholic authors wrote in the New Testament.” There are other examples and clues which you seem to completely miss as well.

The NT Scripture was written by Catholic men. I am a Catholic, and believe Scripture to be very profitable. Since God doesn’t teach that Scripture is sufficient, I likewise don’t believe Scripture is sufficient. 100% of the evidence supports Scripture being profitable but not sufficient.

So, being wise unto salvation is not sufficient?

Being wise unto salvation is indeed not sufficient. One reason is just as Jesus commanded, we must eat His Body and drink His Blood, else we have no life in us. You do not eat His Body and drink His Blood do you? So, you have no life in you according to Jesus the Christ. Do you think having no Supernatural life in you is conducive to salvation?

Jesus also said He would separate the sheep from the goats based on what?.. our behaviors, whether we did works of mercy from faith in Him.

So, knowing something is not enough… that is, if you believe God knows what He’s talking about and trust Him. I do trust Him. Please join me in trusting God.

Again, Do you not consider the new testament scripture or God breathed?

You should know the answer to this just by reading what I have already written. But, here it is anyway… of course the NT and the OT are “God breathed.” The wise who actually listen to Jesus, know that the “God breathed” Scriptures require and infallible interpreter who is also guided by God. This teacher of all truth is God’s Catholic Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth. The correct interpretations of Scriptures are included in the teaching of all truth. Only God’s Catholic Church has this charism of infallible teaching. There is not one single solitary Protestant in existence who can infallibly interpret the Scriptures. Anyone using Sola Scriptura is already in heresy before they start.

 

[JonNC]

=Jaguar;7758975]I wanted to comment on something that came up early in this thread, in regards to the 7 books “the Catholic Church added!”

Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Old Testament close to 300 times. Of those, approximately 200 of those quotes were directly from The ‘Septuagint’ (Greek) Old Testament … the same one that the Catholic Church uses, that contain the 7 books that, Protestants reject and refuse, including Maccabees and that dreaded, praying for the dead thing.

Jesus and the Apostles, obviously knew of those 7 books and yet did not complain that they were in the Bible. Obviously, Jesus would have rejected the Septuagint version, as Protestants do, and only supported the shorter Hebrew canon that Protestants use. Instead, He & His Apostles quoted from it (the Septuagint) approx. 67% of the time.

If the Septuagint, or Greek text was good enough for Jesus and His Apostles, it should be good enough for Protestants! Why isn’t it???

Hi Jaguar,
Just a couple of things. 1st, Lutherans do not reject praying for the dead.

2nd, I am not completely convinced that excluding the D-C’s from the canon is the proper thing. Certainly, excluding them from the bible is not the proper thing.

To state, however, that Lutherans question the D-C-s simply on the basis of doctrines he wished to reject is not the case. In fact, it is the other way around. Lutherans question doctrines, what few there are, founded only in the D-C’s because they have been questioned since the time of St. Jerome. And even said doctrines, in some instances, were allowed to fall into disuse - Purgatory, for example - not because we necessarily reject the doctrine, but some of the practices that surround it - indulgences, as an example. There is a thread I’ve started regarding these issues as discussed in the Lutheran / Catholic joint statement “The Hope of Eternal Life”.

Jon, you are here and that is a great thing. Please stay here and learn as I have.

I have no intention of leaving. I have learned a great deal here, and intend to keep on learning. What I won’t do, having learned from prior experience, is dialogue with those who wish to dialogue from polemics. I have regularly challenged protestants who frame there challenges of the Catholic Church in a polemic way, as was done on this thread.

Often, the hardest thing in life is to admit we were wrong and especially for so long, and about something that is most important.

More than most, I am willing to reevaluate that which I’ve been taught and have believed for more than 50 years.

You will not win any debates here against the One Church. No one can, no one ever will! Because this One Church, is divine in nature. It has to be, because it is straight from our God, Himself. Please don’t resort, as many of us do, in fooling yourself. Pray for God’s honest Truth and that it may find you.

I’ve never viewed any of this as debates, but dialogue. I certainly don’t think I’m fooling myself. And I think that’s the point. I don’t start from the POV that I’m right and you’re wrong, and obviously not the reverse. I start from the POV that, whatever the differences between our commuions, the Holy Spirit can, and eventually will, guide us to unity. Sadly, some Catholics, and some Lutherans, view unity from the lens of “you must submit”. There has been much done over the last 60 years that convinces me that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, convergence of belief can and will occur, all over the complaints of triumphalists on both sides.

I’ll be praying for you. God Bless you and also MDK, Nicea and the rest here, that are trying to make you see that ‘One Truth’ with God’s help and blessings.

Amen. I add my prayers to yours, and include you in them.

Jon

 

[MDK]

Hi Jaguar,
…I’ve never viewed any of this as debates, but dialogue. I certainly don’t think I’m fooling myself. And I think that’s the point. I don’t start from the POV that I’m right and you’re wrong, and obviously not the reverse. I start from the POV that, whatever the differences between our commuions, the Holy Spirit can, and eventually will, guide us to unity. Sadly, some Catholics, and some Lutherans, view unity from the lens of “you must submit”. There has been much done over the last 60 years that convinces me that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, convergence of belief can and will occur, all over the complaints of triumphalists on both sides…

Jon

Jon,

Catholics start and end with the view that Jesus is right, and that what He established is better than what men have built to take its place.

The Holy Spirit can guide, but God doesn’t violate anyone’s free will, so all have to actually be open and willing. So, the idea that the Holy Spirit will fix all this is neglecting the real obstacle which is free will of the participants as the stumbling block. The Holy Spirit is always willing and able to move the soul who is open and seeking God.

I don’t see any triumphalists here, and that label misses the real gist of the conversations. Perhaps you’re missing the real motivation and expression, which is simply the truth. If the truth were different, I would be obligated to tell you that truth. But, the truth is what I’ve been telling you. The truth is that God created one and only one Church, which same has become called Catholic (with the upper case “C”).

Unity is unity in Christ. If the Catholic Church is the one true Church (and it is), then all the change must come from Lutheran community to leave their heresies behind to replace them with God’s truth. There is a welcoming of the Lutherans into the fullness of God’s truth, but to deny what Christ has done is not something a knowledgeable and faithful Catholic would or even ever should do.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

Catholics start and end with the view that Jesus is right, and that what He established is better than what men have built to take its place.

The Holy Spirit can guide, but God doesn’t violate anyone’s free will, so all have to actually be open and willing. So, the idea that the Holy Spirit will fix all this is neglecting the real obstacle which is free will of the participants as the stumbling block. The Holy Spirit is always willing and able to move the soul who is open and seeking God.

I don’t see any triumphalists here, and that label misses the real gist of the conversations. Perhaps you’re missing the real motivation and expression, which is simply the truth. If the truth were different, I would be obligated to tell you that truth. But, the truth is what I’ve been telling you. The truth is that God created one and only one Church, which same has become called Catholic (with the upper case “C”).

Unity is unity in Christ. If the Catholic Church is the one true Church (and it is), then all the change must come from Lutheran community to leave their heresies behind to replace them with God’s truth. There is a welcoming of the Lutherans into the fullness of God’s truth, but to deny what Christ has done is not something a knowledgeable and faithful Catholic would or even ever should do.

Do you view the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification as “all the changes coming from Lutheranism”?

Jon

 

[MDK]

…Just a couple of things. 1st, Lutherans do not reject praying for the dead.

2nd, I am not completely convinced that excluding the D-C’s from the canon is the proper thing. Certainly, excluding them from the bible is not the proper thing.

To state, however, that Lutherans question the D-C-s simply on the basis of doctrines he wished to reject is not the case. In fact, it is the other way around. Lutherans question doctrines, what few there are, founded only in the D-C’s because they have been questioned since the time of St. Jerome. And even said doctrines, in some instances, were allowed to fall into disuse - Purgatory, for example - not because we necessarily reject the doctrine, but some of the practices that surround it - indulgences, as an example. There is a thread I’ve started regarding these issues as discussed in the Lutheran / Catholic joint statement “The Hope of Eternal Life”.

Martin Luther indeed rejected praying for the dead, i.e. purgatory because it conflicted with his justification-by-faith-alone theology (which doesn’t exist in authentic Christianity). Regarding Purgatory, “The Council of Trent defined this doctrine, against the denials of Luther and Calvin and their followers. The definition runs as follows: “There is a Purgatory, and the souls there detained are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar. . .” (Sess. vi, cap. 30; Sess. xxii, cap 2–3).”

Modern day Lutherans can be a bit different than Martin Luther, as that’s the Protestant thing, every man and his Bible. But, the man who built the ecclesial community which you attend and where it received its name, did indeed throw out the Deuterocanonical books because they didn’t fit his Theology. IF ML would have really followed St Jerome’s lead, then ML would have accepted the D-C’s just as St Jerome did. St Jerome lived in the 4th century, and until Martin Luther (16th century) the deuterocanonical books of the Bible were never omitted or put in a separate, non-canonical section of the Bible. But, ML didn’t throw them out right away, he included them in his first German translation.

Jesus never established Martin Luther as the authority. Jesus did establish His Catholic Church as the authority, and Jaguar rightly speaks this.

I believe that any reasonably intelligent person knows that an abuse by some in selling indulgences doesn’t mean a doctrine such as that of Purgatory is false.

 

[MDK]

Do you view the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification as “all the changes coming from Lutheranism”?

Jon

In truth, Catholics gave up no ground, and the Joint Declaration is a very incomplete work. So yes, all doctrinal changes will come on the part of Lutheranism. Otherwise, you’re saying that man’s handiwork is equal to or superior to God’s.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Being wise unto salvation is indeed not sufficient. One reason is just as Jesus commanded, we must eat His Body and drink His Blood, else we have no life in us. You do not eat His Body and drink His Blood do you? So, you have no life in you according to Jesus the Christ. Do you think having no Supernatural life in you is conducive to salvation?

2Tim.3:15And that from a child thou hast known the **holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. **

This says, as you can see that Scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation. That may not be sufficient for you, but it is for me.

 

[StTommyMore]

2Tim.3:15And that from a child thou hast known the **holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. **

This says, as you can see that Scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation. That may not be sufficient for you, but it is for me.

How do you know what is and is not Scripture? There were lots of competing “canons” in the early Church, but the issue was not settled until the 4th century. How do you know that your Canon is the correct one?

 

[JonNC]

=MDK;7762286]Martin Luther indeed rejected praying for the dead, i.e. purgatory because it conflicted with his justification-by-faith-alone theology (which doesn’t exist in authentic Christianity). Regarding Purgatory, “The Council of Trent defined this doctrine, against the denials of Luther and Calvin and their followers. The definition runs as follows: “There is a Purgatory, and the souls there detained are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar. . .” (Sess. vi, cap. 30; Sess. xxii, cap 2–3).”

No, he didn’t. the Apology of the Augsburg Confession clearly does not prohibit prayer for the dead, and Luther was in agreement with the Apology. Perhaps a bit of light reading:
usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf
Scroll down to the section on prayer for the dead.

Modern day Lutherans can be a bit different than Martin Luther, as that’s the Protestant thing, every man and his Bible.

Polemics seem to be your strong suit.

But, the man who built the ecclesial community which you attend and where it received its name, did indeed throw out the Deuterocanonical books because they didn’t fit his Theology. IF ML would have really followed St Jerome’s lead, then ML would have accepted the D-C’s just as St Jerome did. St Jerome lived in the 4th century, and until Martin Luther (16th century) the deuterocanonical books of the Bible were never omitted or put in a separate, non-canonical section of the Bible. But, ML didn’t throw them out right away, he included them in his first German translation.

And why do you think that was? If he had no need of them, why include them at all? Your argument just lacks historic truth.

Jesus never established Martin Luther as the authority. Jesus did establish His Catholic Church as the authority, and Jaguar rightly speaks this.

Which part of the Church? Antioch? Rome?

I believe that any reasonably intelligent person knows that an abuse by some in selling indulgences doesn’t mean a doctrine such as that of Purgatory is false.

I agree. Read the document. Oh, and notice, it is from the USCCB website.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

In truth, Catholics gave up no ground, and the Joint Declaration is a very incomplete work. So yes, all doctrinal changes will come on the part of Lutheranism. Otherwise, you’re saying that man’s handiwork is equal to or superior to God’s.

No, what I’m saying is that the leaders of the Catholic Church seem to recognize that unity won’t come by polemics and accusations. There are hard-line Lutherans who speak the same way about the document. No surprise there.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

2Tim.3:15And that from a child thou hast known the **holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. **

This says, as you can see that Scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation. That may not be sufficient for you, but it is for me.

Child’s play. Tell me Richard,specifically WHICH BOOKS (Holy Scriptures) was St.Paul referring to in 2 Tim 3:15? Care to provide the list naming the specific books,which makes one wise? Sola Scriptura is FALSE…for the 10 billion TIME!

 

[Nicea325]

2Tim3: 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Jn.17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

It says in 2Tim3 that the inspired wod of God is able to make us wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. and in Jn. 17:17 that we are sanctified (made holy) by the word of God.

If there is something else that is necessary, what do you think it is and where do we find it?

Yep! Read John 6,pretty clear it is more than just words. Cannot read your way to Heaven Richard. Cannot EAT words Richard,so indeed there is somethig else necessary as God Himself (Jesus) says over and over in John 6.

 

[firstmode]

If this article is the best the SS crowd can do for defence…well…it’s not helpful.

For starters, it misrepresents what is actually Catholic teaching. Also, it treats the NT as if it were already a canon in Apostolic times. Given that the Church (that would be the Catholic Church) decided which of the books of Scripture were inspired, it seems interesting that the term “God-breathed” would hold so much sway…because God obviously used the Church to breath.

And where was it that St. Paul spoke against Sola Scriptura?

Paul calls the gospel scripture and summarizes Jesus death on the cross and his resurrection coming from THE SCRIPTURES. apostolic times has the Gospel and the OT as holy scriptures. Peter calls Paulson letters scripture along with the old testament. In apostolic times, Pauls letters, the gospel, the OT are scripture.

The Muratorian fragment from 120 to 150 Ad has almost the entire NT cannon listed as the holy scriptures used by the churches of the world. Going back to apostolic times the new testament was mostly already formed.

You need to go and read Eusebius church history…

 

[StTommyMore]

Paul calls the gospel scripture and summarizes Jesus death on the cross and his resurrection coming from THE SCRIPTURES. apostolic times has the Gospel and the OT as holy scriptures. Peter calls Paulson letters scripture along with the old testament. In apostolic times, Pauls letters, the gospel, the OT are scripture.

The Muratorian fragment from 120 to 150 Ad has almost the entire NT cannon listed as the holy scriptures used by the churches of the world. Going back to apostolic times the new testament was mostly already formed.

You need to go and read Eusebius church history…

The Muratorian Fragment also includes the Book of Wisdom…funny how you don’t include it in your canon. The fact remains that the Canon was determined by the Catholic CHurch

 

[gtrenewed]

Several posters have said that without valid orders there is no valid Eucharist and without a valid Eucharist there is no salvation. I learned that growing up in the pre-Vat2 church? The current catechism teaches that there are Christians outside of the Catholic Church.

How can the catechism call those outside of the Catholic Church brothers in the Lord if they are not Christians and are not eligible to be saved?

Doesn’t the catechism say that a trinitarian baptism is the entrance into Christ?

 

[joe370]

2Tim3: 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Jn.17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

It says in 2Tim3 that the inspired wod of God is able to make us wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. and in Jn. 17:17 that we are sanctified (made holy) by the word of God.

If there is something else that is necessary, what do you think it is and where do we find it?

Jesus’ church leadership in His stead, which is why scripture tells us that it is through His church that the manifold wisdom of God is even made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, consisting of the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms - according to the Father’s eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. We need Jesus’ church built by Jesus on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus as the Divine Cornerstone, where the house of the living God and the pillar and foundation of truth can be found due to the never ending guidance of the holy spirit, where the sacred canon was eventually codified by Jesus’ church via the guidance of the Holy spirit, 300 years after the apostles walked the earth!

 

[joe370]

Several posters have said that without valid orders there is no valid Eucharist and without a valid Eucharist there is no salvation. I learned that growing up in the pre-Vat2 church? The current catechism teaches that there are Christians outside of the Catholic Church.

How can the catechism call those outside of the Catholic Church brothers in the Lord if they are not Christians and are not eligible to be saved?

Doesn’t the catechism say that a trinitarian baptism is the entrance into Christ?

Perhaps the CCC is referring to those baptized Christians who, through no fault of their own, belong to a church other than the Catholic church? My little niece is being raised in the Lutheran faith and she is quite enamored by the Lutheran church, believing that she has found the house of the living God and the pillar and foundation of truth, and therefore is not exposed to the doctrinal truths of the Catholic church. It seems that the culpability has to do more with the shepherds, as opposed to the flock. The flock merely follow their shepherd and believe what they preach and teach…

 

[joe370]

Yep! Read John 6,pretty clear it is more than just words. Cannot read your way to Heaven Richard. Cannot EAT words Richard,so indeed there is somethig else necessary as God Himself (Jesus) says over and over in John 6.

Exactly…

The old testament covenant instituted by Jesus was specifically for the Israelites who were commanded to eat the passover lamb (which prefigured the Lamb of God).

The new covenant instituted by Jesus at the passover, is for both Jew and gentile, who are also commanded to eat the passover Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the whole world.
This simple logic just jumped out at me long ago, as a former protestant…

 

[joe370]

Child’s play. Tell me Richard,specifically WHICH BOOKS (Holy Scriptures) was St.Paul referring to in 2 Tim 3:15? Care to provide the list naming the specific books,which makes one wise? Sola Scriptura is FALSE…for the 10 billion TIME!

Well, it occurred to me long ago, if we want to find that list we must go to the Catholic church. The CC decided what would make the cut and what would not.