Lebanese Catholic Baptism

[irishcelt8]

My husband and I are going to the baptism/confirmation liturgy for our friends’ baby in a few weeks. They attend a Lebanese Catholic parish and we’ve never attended before. Are there any good resources/instructions that a Latin Rite Catholic should read about or know in order to attend?

Are the Baptism/Confirmation sacraments a part of the Mass? Any suggestions would be most appreciated! We are very excited to participate.

 

[Vico]

My husband and I are going to the baptism/confirmation liturgy for our friends’ baby in a few weeks. They attend a Lebanese Catholic parish and we’ve never attended before. Are there any good resources/instructions that a Latin Rite Catholic should read about or know in order to attend?

Are the Baptism/Confirmation sacraments a part of the Mass? Any suggestions would be most appreciated! We are very excited to participate.

Are they Maronites?

Perhaps the initiation will be in the Qurbono?

If Maronite is right, you can read the Qurbono PDF here:

eparchy.org/

 

[Denho]

My husband and I are going to the baptism/confirmation liturgy for our friends’ baby in a few weeks. They attend a Lebanese Catholic parish and we’ve never attended before. Are there any good resources/instructions that a Latin Rite Catholic should read about or know in order to attend?

Are the Baptism/Confirmation sacraments a part of the Mass? Any suggestions would be most appreciated! We are very excited to participate.

I am going to assume you mean Maronite, but for future reference, please don’t ever call it the Lebanese Catholic Church, I already have enough trouble convincing Maronites that we aren’t a “Lebanese Church”.

And right now the Baptismal/Chrismation liturgy is arranged in the form of a canonical hour of the divine office. There is (in theory) something called the Anaphora of the Baptismal Water where the priest will consecrate the water with the Myron (Chrism) and it is arranged in the same manner of a Eucharistic Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer)… but sadly I can almost guarantee you will not see this because the priest will more than likely use the “short form” before the liturgy even begins… if that.

The exorcism ritual is very interesting, and you will see that the formula for Baptism and Chrismation is different than what you would see in the Latin Church.

There is an option to conclude the liturgy after the Chrismation or to have an anaphora and a complete Qurbono/Divine Liturgy/Mass/etc.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

My husband and I are going to the baptism/confirmation liturgy for our friends’ baby in a few weeks. They attend a Lebanese Catholic parish and we’ve never attended before. Are there any good resources/instructions that a Latin Rite Catholic should read about or know in order to attend?

Are the Baptism/Confirmation sacraments a part of the Mass? Any suggestions would be most appreciated! We are very excited to participate.

Some Lebanese are Latin Rite due to the French having been there and others are Maronite.

 

[malphono]

Some Lebanese are Latin Rite due to the French having been there and others are Maronite.

And others are Melkite, or Syriac, or Armenian, or Coptic.

But yes, there is a very small minority of Latin Catholics. Their origins, however, date back to the Crusaders.

 

[annastasia75]

I am going to assume you mean Maronite, but for future reference, please don’t ever call it the Lebanese Catholic Church, I already have enough trouble convincing Maronites that we aren’t a “Lebanese Church”.

And right now the Baptismal/Chrismation liturgy is arranged in the form of a canonical hour of the divine office. There is (in theory) something called the Anaphora of the Baptismal Water where the priest will consecrate the water with the Myron (Chrism) and it is arranged in the same manner of a Eucharistic Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer)… but sadly I can almost guarantee you will not see this because the priest will more than likely use the “short form” before the liturgy even begins… if that.

The exorcism ritual is very interesting, and you will see that the formula for Baptism and Chrismation is different than what you would see in the Latin Church.

There is an option to conclude the liturgy after the Chrismation or to have an anaphora and a complete Qurbono/Divine Liturgy/Mass/etc.

There is a Marionite Church next to our, we’ve always called them Lebanese Catholic too.

 

[irishcelt8]

Thank you all so much! It is a Maronite Church. I presume that there will be Holy Communion during the Baptismal Liturgy, it is on a Sunday. Can this be confirmed?

 

[malphono]

Thank you all so much! It is a Maronite Church. I presume that there will be Holy Communion during the Baptismal Liturgy, it is on a Sunday. Can this be confirmed?

Of course I don’t know what’s going to happen, (liturgical “oddities” abound among the Maronites these days as much, if not more, than they do in the Latin Rite Novus Ordo), but I will say that Baptism is, as noted earlier by Denho, a separate rite. Traditionally, baptism is administered outside of Mass, most often after Sunday Mass. IOW, what normally happened was that the baptismal parties attended Mass and then came the Baptism. Occasionaly, the small rite of “churching” was done at the main doors prior to the Mass (provided, of course, that the parents were actually present, which was not always the case, but I digress).

Long story short, IMO, the best bet would be to ask either the parents or the contact the priest to ask what to expect.

 

[irishcelt8]

Thank you, Malphono!
Just heard from the mother and she said the Mass is beforehand. We’ll certainly attend the Mass and remain for the Initiation Rites. My husband and I belong to a Novus Ordo parish, but on occasion (I work on weekends), we’ll attend a Tridentine Mass near my office. As our friend said, the Maronite Divine Liturgy is similar, but with more incense and in Aramaic.

I was reading the English translation of a Maronite Liturgy during the Easter season. I noticed there are different parts where the congregation sits/stands/or kneels. However, it does not appear to indicate that the congregation kneels during the Eucharistic prayers/Consecration. Perhaps I missed it, but is it customary to stand/kneel/or sit during the consecration?

Thank you all for your information!

 

[malphono]

Thank you, Malphono!

You’re welcome.

Just heard from the mother and she said the Mass is beforehand. We’ll certainly attend the Mass and remain for the Initiation Rites. My husband and I belong to a Novus Ordo parish, but on occasion (I work on weekends), we’ll attend a Tridentine Mass near my office. As our friend said, the Maronite Divine Liturgy is similar, but with more incense and in Aramaic.

You mean similar to the Novus Ordo.

I was reading the English translation of a Maronite Liturgy during the Easter season. I noticed there are different parts where the congregation sits/stands/or kneels. However, it does not appear to indicate that the congregation kneels during the Eucharistic prayers/Consecration. Perhaps I missed it, but is it customary to stand/kneel/or sit during the consecration?

The norm is to stand during the anaphora, although you may see some folks kneeling, particularly during the Instiution Narrative. Just follow the direction in the pew book and you’ll be fine.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. Baptism happens after the Qurbono? That’s interesting. Do Maronites not practice communion of infants? In the Coptic Church, baptism occurs before the liturgy, and the newly baptized, generally infants (but not always ), commune for the first time at the liturgy immediately following their baptism and charismation (which happen together). Obviously that would not be possible if we baptized after the liturgy, hence why that strikes me as odd. So Maronites are received into the Church, and then they get to wait another week before they can receive its Eucharist?

 

[Denho]

Hmm. Baptism happens after the Qurbono? That’s interesting. Do Maronites not practice communion of infants? In the Coptic Church, baptism occurs before the liturgy, and the newly baptized, generally infants (but not always ), commune for the first time at the liturgy immediately following their baptism and charismation (which happen together). Obviously that would not be possible if we baptized after the liturgy, hence why that strikes me as odd. So Maronites are received into the Church, and then they get to wait another week before they can receive its Eucharist?

Infant Communion was taken away from us by Rome a while back. Now we choose to deny it to our children because people like the parties even though Rome could care less what we do…

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. Sad. I know that your Orthodox Syriac cousins (both Middle Eastern and Indian) commune infants. I guess I figured Maronites would, too, though now that I think about it I didn’t really have any reason to assume so.

 

[malphono]

Hmm. Baptism happens after the Qurbono? That’s interesting. Do Maronites not practice communion of infants? In the Coptic Church, baptism occurs before the liturgy, and the newly baptized, generally infants (but not always ), commune for the first time at the liturgy immediately following their baptism and charismation (which happen together). Obviously that would not be possible if we baptized after the liturgy, hence why that strikes me as odd. So Maronites are received into the Church, and then they get to wait another week before they can receive its Eucharist?

In a word, no, we don’t commune infants, and that, of course, is a latinzation.

Originally, before the latinization, it was as you describe. There was an attempt to restore the practice with the Sacramental Ritual of 1942. It turned into rather long and messy affair and, long story short, Rome would not budge. Since that time, there’s been essentially no thought given to it. (Why bother when they’ve been too busy taking a hatchet to the whole Rite of Baptism, but as usual, I digress.)

 

[Denho]

Hmm. Sad. I know that your Orthodox Syriac cousins (both Middle Eastern and Indian) commune infants. I guess I figured Maronites would, too, though now that I think about it I didn’t really have any reason to assume so.

I have seen videos of Syriac Orthodox doing either First Communions or “Solemn Communions” so the parents can dress the kids up, give them a candle, and have a party. So even they aren’t necessarily free from the infectious nature of parties.

 

[malphono]

I have seen videos of Syriac Orthodox doing either First Communions or “Solemn Communions” so the parents can dress the kids up, give them a candle, and have a party. So even they aren’t necessarily free from the infectious nature of parties.

Everybody likes a good party. Well … most people, (at least those who aren’t agoraphobic), do.

 

[dzheremi]

Actually, those videos you’ve seen (I’ve seen some, too; bleh) are apparently not “first communion” celebrations in the RC sense, but rather are dressed up/fancy celebrations of communion at some particular age – an erroneous practice adopted by some Syriac Orthodox in North America (but apparently not elsewhere) who have taken Catholic spouses, or otherwise felt compelled to have such ceremonies so that their children do not feel left out when their Catholic friends are having all these special celebrations as young children. As far as I understand, all Syriac Orthodox (both Middle Eastern and Indian) receive communion immediately following baptism in a manner comparable to the Coptic practice I described earlier.

Please see this thread on the practice from OrthodoxChristianity.net, which contains not only statements from Syriac Orthodox people condemning the practice, but even from HG Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, the Archbishop of the Western USA.

I guess this can be taken as a cautionary tale not to marry outside of your communion. (I’m glad the Coptic Orthodox Church, at least, has seen the wisdom in this, even if it is not followed by some of our sister churches.)

 

[Denho]

Actually, those videos you’ve seen (I’ve seen some, too; bleh) are apparently not “first communion” celebrations in the RC sense, but rather are dressed up/fancy celebrations of communion at some particular age – an erroneous practice adopted by some Syriac Orthodox in North America (but apparently not elsewhere) who have taken Catholic spouses, or otherwise felt compelled to have such ceremonies so that their children do not feel left out when their Catholic friends are having all these special celebrations as young children. As far as I understand, all Syriac Orthodox (both Middle Eastern and Indian) receive communion immediately following baptism in a manner comparable to the Coptic practice I described earlier.

Please see this thread on the practice from OrthodoxChristianity.net, which contains not only statements from Syriac Orthodox people condemning the practice, but even from HG Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan, the Archbishop of the Western USA.

I guess this can be taken as a cautionary tale not to marry outside of your communion. (I’m glad the Coptic Orthodox Church, at least, has seen the wisdom in this, even if it is not followed by some of our sister churches.)

I am aware, that’s why I mentioned “Solemn Communion” for they particular practice. It is very unfortunate since it seems to deligitimize the “first communion” the child received as his/her baptism.

 

[malphono]

I am aware, that’s why I mentioned “Solemn Communion” for they particular practice. It is very unfortunate since it seems to deligitimize the “first communion” the child received as his/her baptism.

IIRC, the Melkites did the same thing, and it seems that some were bent out of shape when the bishop reprobated the practice.

 

[dzheremi]

I am aware, that’s why I mentioned “Solemn Communion” for they particular practice. It is very unfortunate since it seems to deligitimize the “first communion” the child received as his/her baptism.

Oh, sorry. I wasn’t aware that that’s what “solemn communion” means (I thought you were referring to another Latin thing). And, yes, it is wrong. You want to dress your kid up and take a bunch of pictures and such? Wait until the bishop visits and get it all out of your system then. That’s what we all do (except for me, since I’m not Egyptian).