Lectionary: Luke or St. Luke?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deacon_Joe
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Deacon_Joe

Guest
In the Lectionary, the second reading is introduced with words such as: “A reading from the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans”. But the gospel is introduced: “A reading from the holy Gospel according to Luke”. Why not St. Luke, or St. Matthew, or St. Mark, or St. John?

I checked the Spanish Lectionary at our parish and it does use St. Luke rather than Luke. Does anyone know how the original Lectionary in Latin is formatted? Is this an ICEL translation matter?

Deacon Joe :confused:
 
I don’t have an answer, but have a related question. I frequently see references to Matthew, Mark or Luke, but always **Saint **John outside of Church writings…
 
The original Latin omits St. This is a Roman tradition of a few hundred years

For the explanation of why St. is omitted, see here
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2456296&postcount=21
What this author says regarding the reason for standing and sitting is correct. The attention in the Gospels is to Jesus Christ himself; therefore we stand.

It is also correct that the Latin edition does not include the title St. before the name of the evangelists.

I do believe that to say that the English translation or the Spanish translation is faulty is a little too stern.

We have a tendency on CAF to label everything that differs from the original Latin or the original text as flawed in some way or even go as far as say that they are abuses.

I believe that we over use these terms. To call something a flaw when it’s an insignificant difference, such as the Spanish lectionary using Saint in front of the evangelist’s name is a knee-jerk reaction. One has to take into conderation the culture and the language of the translation.

In the Spanish culture the evagelists are always referred to as Saint, even in everyday conversation. This is not the custom in the English speaking world. Therefore, the translation from Latin to English was easier than from Latin to Spanish. Because the Spanish speaking world always refers to the evangelists as Saint, it would have been jarring to the ear of the lsiteners. Instead of calling them to be attentive to the Gospel, it would have been a distraction. We are often distracted when something sounds jarring.

In a not so perfect world, to use the common form St. Mark, St. Matthew, St. Luke and St. John would pass very quickly without being noticed by the congregation and they would move right into the Gospel reading without the disatraction. In the end, that’s what you want.

As to abuses, for something to be an abuse it has to be serious, deliberate and with a full understanding of the damage that one is doing. If one of those three elements are missing, it is a mistake, not an abuse. These are rules of moral theology.

JR 🙂
 
In the Byzantine Church I attend and all the Divine Liturgies I have been at the Gospel is introduced as “The Holy Gospel according to the Evangelist [name]” where the name is either Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.
 
One has to take into conderation the culture and the language of the translation.

In the Spanish culture the evagelists are always referred to as Saint, even in everyday conversation. This is not the custom in the English speaking world. Therefore, the translation from Latin to English was easier than from Latin to Spanish. Because the Spanish speaking world always refers to the evangelists as Saint, it would have been jarring to the ear of the lsiteners. Instead of calling them to be attentive to the Gospel, it would have been a distraction. We are often distracted when something sounds jarring.

In a not so perfect world, to use the common form St. Mark, St. Matthew, St. Luke and St. John would pass very quickly without being noticed by the congregation and they would move right into the Gospel reading without the disatraction. In the end, that’s what you want.

As to abuses, for something to be an abuse it has to be serious, deliberate and with a full understanding of the damage that one is doing. If one of those three elements are missing, it is a mistake, not an abuse. These are rules of moral theology.

JR 🙂
From Redemptionis Sacramentum:
[171.] Among the various abuses there are some which are objectively graviora delicta or otherwise constitute grave matters, as well as others which are nonetheless to be carefully avoided and corrected. Bearing in mind everything that is treated especially in Chapter I of this Instruction, attention should be paid to what follows.

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

From this you can see that your definition of abuse is not that being used by the Holy See. An abuse is something done contrary to the liturgical law. It need not be serious - grave abuses are a particular class of abuses. One need not know the full implications - simply knowing it’s wrong is enough. You’re right that there’s a difference between a mistake and an abuse, but both need to be, to use RS’s turn of phrase, “carefully avoided and corrected.”

You’ve actually overlooked a key factor in the case of the Spanish Lectionary, though: if it’s an approved edition of the books, that means that even though it’s a bad translation, it is nonetheless licit, which means it can’t be an abuse.

The cultural “norms” you’re pointing to in this particular translation issue are so minor that I wouldn’t come down too heavy on the translator for slipping in a “Saint” before the evangelist’s name, but since it means he’s riding roughshod over a well-established liturgical tradition I do think it warrants being called a “bad translation.” The bottom line on translation is that while you need to be adaptable when translating idioms from one language into another, if you’re dealing with straightforward, literal language your responsibility is to the text. You’re not dealing with a different manner of speech, but with adding speech to the text - something a translator must avoid whenever possible. Especially when you’re dealing with liturgical texts, language has been carefully selected over the centuries, and very specific yet sometimes unnatural phraseology has been preserved for, in some cases, 1600 years. You just don’t get to “clean it up” to sound more like everyday speech.

Take, for instance, the Gloria. It is repetitious (Qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis. Qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram. Qui sedes ad dexteram patris, miserere nobis). The ICEL translators made it less so because, they argued, that’s not the way we speak in standard English. So they cut out on “qui tollis…” and one “miserere nobis.” Well, guess what, that’s not the way one speaks in standard Latin, either. The text was not standard, it was poetic, liturgical language. Sometimes translators need to realize that they are not translating normal speech, so they need to leave the text be.

All that said, it *is *a one-word change at a point when most people don’t know what the text should be anyway. So if it sounds like my knickers are in a twist, believe me I have far bigger fish to fry. I just want to point out that modern translators tend not to think through what they’re doing beyond the most shallow of considerations.
 
I have far bigger fish to fry. I just want to point out that modern translators tend not to think through what they’re doing beyond the most shallow of considerations.
As you correctly say at the end of your post, we all have bigger fish to fry. Often, when these documents are written the writer is unaware of every possible situations around the globe. We have to look at what is eventually aproved, after the document is published.

As you also correctly said, the lectionary in Spanish was authorized by competent Church authorities. So for one am not going to even focus on it.

A similar situation has arisen with the EF. While visiting with my spiritual director yesterday we spoke of the EF. He mentioned that our prarish faces two challenges. Because the parish is administered by an exempt religious order of pontifical right, the pastor does not have authority over the priests in the parish, as he is not their superior. The Superior of the community is a Lay Brother and only the superior can order the priests to celebrate the EF. The Superior has left it open to anyone who wants to volunteer to learn it.

Their second problem is that the EF missal does not conform to the missal of the Order. They have old copies of the Tridentine missal written especially for their order, but no one knows for sure if the Congregation on the Liturgy wants them to use those missals or if they want the friars to come up with a new one, since there have been changes to the liturgical calendar during the last 40 years.

While using the old missal approved for their order in the 1800s would not be a problem, they have to make sure that it’s not a problem for the Congregation on the Liturgy.

Nothing is ever that simple in the Catholic Church. I guess, we just have to wait and see how all of these documents are applied. Sometimes, the laity believes that things are as simple as they appear in print. Unfortunately, such is not the case.

We have to learn to live by St. Teresa’s Serenity prayer.

JR 🙂
 
The author of the older post explaining the translations and announcements did not say that the mistranslation was either “significant” or “abusive.” He simply stated that it was “defective.”

Because the necessary words exist in English to precisely translate the Latin text–indeed, older hand missals for the laity used them correctly, as did even Anglican Missals–the sudden departure away from those literal and accurate translations, c. 1969-70, raises questions. And of course, this is only one example from the Mass texts of the current missal, which is why the Holy See has called for a new translation. As others have pointed out, there are many, many such instances of mistranslations by ICEL. The pre-1970 unofficial translations were accurately translated, only to be officially replaced in 1970 by shoddy paraphrasing, usually full of omissions.
 
The author of the older post explaining the translations and announcements did not say that the mistranslation was either “significant” or “abusive.” He simply stated that it was “defective.”

Because the necessary words exist in English to precisely translate the Latin text–indeed, older hand missals for the laity used them correctly, as did even Anglican Missals–the sudden departure away from those literal and accurate translations, c. 1969-70, raises questions. And of course, this is only one example from the Mass texts of the current missal, which is why the Holy See has called for a new translation. As others have pointed out, there are many, many such instances of mistranslations by ICEL. The pre-1970 unofficial translations were accurately translated, only to be officially replaced in 1970 by shoddy paraphrasing, usually full of omissions.
I think it’s pretty clear that the first batch of ICEL translators thought it was their job to “improve” upon the text they were translating. They had not respect whatsoever for the text.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top