Lecture Material on Homosexuality Taught in Parish

[pray4peace]

I recently got an e-mail with a concern from people in our church that our parish has been using the lecture materials “Let’s Talk About Homosexuality” , and that it goes against what the Catholic Church teaches on homosexuality.

I do not go to these lectures or have anyone gay in my family, but I am concerned with what is causing an upheavel in our parish.

Here is the website that promotes and offers this help for Catholics who are gay and their families.

fortunatefamilies.com/education.htm

Does anyone know about these materials and if this is something we should not be using?

Can a priest use this without bishop approval?

 

[Prophesy]

Here is an available .PDF file with the lecture notes that they are likely using
fortunatefamilies.com/docs/letstalkabout/LTAHweek1.pdf

You could contact your bishop and inform them about the lecture materials (one particular thing of note is the cherry-picking of the Catechism).

-Prophecy

 

[Joe_5859]

From their program:

“'Part 3: Moral and Pastoral Considerations: What the Church Teaches … and Other Catholic Voices”



I just glanced over some of it, and it is certainly problematic in many, many ways. Even the lesson that attempts to list all the Church documents on the subject contains several glaring omissions. There’s nothing about The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality or Considerations Regarding Proposals To Give Legal Recognition To Unions Between Homosexual Persons (to name but two).

Further, they make the classic mistake of turning a moral issue into some sort of dialogue between “official Church teaching” and anyone else we feel like including in on the conversation. That is not how Catholics should approach moral issues. Veritatis Splendor is our guide.

Most bishops do not micromanage which resources a pastor uses, but ordinarily there is at least an unwritten understanding that one does not use materials that undermine and/or contradict the Catholic faith.

If you want to address this issue (and I would encourage you to consider it!), I recommend drawing from Catholics United for the Faith’s excellent Effective Lay Witness Protocol. It clearly outlines to steps to take to effectively resolve these sorts of disputes within the Church.

 

[manygift1spirit]

F.F. is a homosexualist advocacy group. Full stop.

It is virulently scandalous, as it projects the illusion that it is somehow Catholic. Other than the fact that most of its members are probably baptized as Catholics, and they may fill out the “Catholic” bubble on a Census form, it is about as Catholic as the Association for Retired Khmer Rouge Wife-Beating Tax Cheats.

According to a good friend of one of its founders, at one point it had “Catholic” in its name, but the local bishop gently and politely asked them to remove it, so as “not to draw attention to themselves” (from the Vatican presumably) and “not to get me [the Bishop] in trouble”. With friends like that…

I cannot even get myself to type out its full name…

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

The use of quotes from Fr. Richard McBrien and Bishop Thomas Gumbleton makes this suspect. Sadly, some people may have a presupposed idea and then find quotes, writings, and teachings that agree with this idea. This seems to be what is going on here. Taking a quote from an encyclical apart from the context of that encyclical as well as the use of the phrases “some theologians”, “there is disagreement concerning…”, and “most theologians today say…” is a fraudulent way of making teaching conform to a preconceived notion. There is a large social justice class being offered to parishes that does the same thing. It is just half truth proposed as being the full truth.

 

[manygift1spirit]

As a more constructive post than my last one, simply do not use anything from F.F., or think about using them as a resource for anything Catholic. I cannot say that fervently enough.

I would give good odds that nowhere on its website or in its materials does it say anything positive about the Courage Apostolate.

 

[Kolbe300]

I think it would be important to understand exactly why the Fortunate Families information is being used. What is the purpose of this particular event at your Church? If the entire point of the event is to show Church teaching (and nothing else) then the Fortunate Families information wouldn’t be a good source. The information cited is for a discussion on homosexuality for Catholics. Are they having a discussion on the issue at your church? If so, I think the information Fortunate Families offers is very good for pointing out why many in the Church struggle with teachings on homosexuality. Are churches (and those within them) not allowed to look at the other side of an argument? I honestly believe the only way to know if this information is appropriate is to know the context in which it is being used.

F.F. is a homosexualist advocacy group.

By their definition or yours? And because you believe that, there is no discussion. In other words, we’ll get nowhere.

It is virulently scandalous, as it projects the illusion that it is somehow Catholic.

The fact that its members are Catholic parents of homosexual children is far from an illusion.

Other than the fact that most of its members are probably baptized as Catholics, and they may fill out the “Catholic” bubble on a Census form, it is about as Catholic as the Association for Retired Khmer Rouge Wife-Beating Tax Cheats.

True illusion is when one feels they get to determine who is and who isn’t Catholic enough. We truly need to get past this and headed toward healthy discussion if understanding is going to be reached by anyone.

 

[manygift1spirit]

I think it would be important to understand exactly why the Fortunate Families information is being used. What is the purpose of this particular event at your Church? If the entire point of the event is to show Church teaching (and nothing else) then the Fortunate Families information wouldn’t be a good source. The information cited is for a discussion on homosexuality for Catholics. Are they having a discussion on the issue at your church? If so, I think the information Fortunate Families offers is very good for pointing out why many in the Church struggle with teachings on homosexuality. Are churches (and those within them) not allowed to look at the other side of an argument? I honestly believe the only way to know if this information is appropriate is to know the context in which it is being used.

Given that there are so many sources to illustrate the plight of those family members bearing the cross of a loved one’s homosexuality, I would imagine there would be many, many better sources. The one constructive use of -]the other side of the argument /-]F.F. materials that I am aware of is that some friends of mine involved with NOM monitor their website and get their newsletters, etc., for the purposes of analyzing them and instrumenting responses to some of the nonsense that gets peddled from there. (Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with NOM, indeed I abhor some of their tactics, 1 Cor 13:1 and all that, but feel and know their cause is just). But taking the risk of scandalizing people by using F.F.'s materials in a parish setting for a discussion is highly imprudent. To say nothing about the implied endorsement of the organization itself that use might bring.

The biggest problem hindering acceptance of the Church’s teachings on homosexuality is that the teachings themselves are not communicated well. But in this, F.F. is part of the problem, not the solution.

By their definition or yours? And because you believe that, there is no discussion. In other words, we’ll get nowhere.

Please, let’s tone back the snarkiness. There can be plenty of discussion. See above for example. And frankly, if the original poster can find some better resources that do not carry nearly the same danger of scandalizing others in his parish, then we have gotten somewhere indeed. I think Courage or its sister organization Encourage are great places to start. (not a large chance of scandal, these)

The fact that its members are Catholic parents of homosexual children is far from an illusion.

Indeed, I asserted as such (recall the census quip). But did you know, the organization itself advocates for things not only outside the Church but unambiguously contrary to settled doctrine. So participation in the organization puts one at tangible risk of being out of communion with the Church. This isn’t to say that I can quantify exactly how or when that process occurs but based on readings of some of their positions, and the material from the USCCB, it is pretty clear this risk is real and grave.

True illusion is when one feels they get to determine who is and who isn’t Catholic enough. We truly need to get past this and headed toward healthy discussion if understanding is going to be reached by anyone.

Uhmm…, yeah…, but that is not relevant at all here. Because only God does that. So there is nothing to get past. The true illusion relevant here is that a Catholic is free to openly dissent from Church teachings on faith and morals. That is just simply wrong. But this organization encourages it. Any healthy discussion needs to have agreement that using such an organization for discussion of a pastorally difficult topic is at best wrought with great peril, and is likely a bad idea, period.

 

[Kolbe300]

Given that there are so many sources to illustrate the plight of those family members bearing the cross of a loved one’s homosexuality, I would imagine there would be many, many better sources.

Hi manygift1spirit. Encourage is one Catholic source for parents that I know of. I know of none other. I’m sure they are out there. That being said, it would be helpful if the multitude of other resources made themselves more readily available. I’ve never seen Encourage or Courage advertised in a bulletin or mentioned from the pulpit. I travel for a living so I attend mass all over the country. I have yet to see or hear of either organization.

But taking the risk of scandalizing people by using F.F.'s materials in a parish setting for a discussion is highly imprudent. To say nothing about the implied endorsement of the organization itself that use might bring.

It sometimes seems as if our fear of scandalized Catholics prevents us from entering honest discussions, especially with those we believe are most in need of correction. If the Church’s teaching is as strong as we believe, groups like F.F. should be invited if for no other reason than to help them see the truth we desire to share. Many of them are, after all, Catholics. Sharing the truth with only those who already believe the truth, while probably an enjoyable experience, is fairly pointless.

The biggest problem hindering acceptance of the Church’s teachings on homosexuality is that the teachings themselves are not communicated well.

It would be physically impossible for me to agree with you anymore than I do here.

Please, let’s tone back the snarkiness. There can be plenty of discussion.

There was no “snarkiness” intended there. If we view a group like F.F. as nothing more than “homosexualist advocates”, we are encouraging an ever growing distance between us. These people are not horrible, purposeful dissenters. They are good people who are in a difficult battle. Many of the questions I see them raise are really, really good questions.

I think Courage or its sister organization Encourage are great places to start. (not a large chance of scandal, these)

Courage and Encourage probably would be great places to start. Now, if only they would reach out as if they believed that.

But did you know, the organization itself advocates for things not only outside the Church but unambiguously contrary to settled doctrine.

I did know that. And I, for one, can see why they feel the way they do. I can sympathize, quite easily, with them. They may not always have the right conclusions or answers, but they have good questions. If we can’t offer another answer, who will? If they can’t come discuss with us in our Church, where can they?

Any healthy discussion needs to have agreement that using such an organization for discussion of a pastorally difficult topic is at best wrought with great peril, and is likely a bad idea, period.

Why is a discussion considered wrought with great peril? It’s a discussion. If we only discuss pastorally difficult topics with those who agree with us, we’re not having a discussion at all. It’d make for a good pep-rally, but everyone will walk out no different than they entered.

Peace

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Luke 16:27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

It isn’t true that the Church’s teaching isn’t communicated well, it is that so many disparate views and half truths along with outright dissent is propagated as being authentically Catholic. God’s life giving spirit is in the truth of His Church’s Magisterial teachings and He even gives the Grace required to believe and live it but pride pushes us to go our own way to varying levels of dissent.

The Church teaching is there for all to see, to come into contact with, and to come to God as well as to enter into union with God through this teaching. It isn’t a set of principles but a living law direct from the very Nature of God. We have union with God in spirit when we don’t turn from Him and His revealed Law. He makes His abode in us, John 14:23.

The intellectual assent of believing a risen family member is of no avail in the parable above and the discussion of Church teaching isn’t much better. Pointing out errors with charity and pointing out what the Church says is our mandate but in the end it is only an intellectual exercise; it is up to the person to cease turning away from God and humbly ask for the grace to see the truth of what God is revealing through His Church’s Magisterial Authority.

Where this authoritative teaching departs from what is offered by F.F. or any other ministry, it is incumbent upon that ministry to change and bring their instruction in line with it. To paraphrase the above parable, if they don’t hear the pope and the saints, they won’t believe us. We can only point them towards the authority that is the Church’s Magisterium and as Our Lady of Fatima exhorts, pray much and sacrifice for others, for the grace of conversion. Until then, keeping it out of the parish is also part of the mandate to live in the Truth of God.