Led zeppelin!!!

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Be nice to my brother Mickey!
Don’t hold your breath. That guy’s a waste of time. To everyone else, I suggest you all note that Mickey here actually frowns down upon logic and reasoning and opts only for blind faith. That should be enough to tell you what kind of tactics this guy pulls when arguing on anything he opposes. Then, when you finally bowl him over with the facts, he puts you on his ignore list.

Actually, to all you kiddies out there reading Mickey here, aggression isn’t always a bad thing. It has all sorts of wonderful applications. 👍
 
Be nice to my brother Mickey!
This guy took offense when I presented him with facts. He comes into any discussion that he opposes with nothing but a bucket of red herrings on one hand and a box of non-sequiturs in the other. People shouldn’t be wasting their time with someone that intellectually dishonest.
 
My worldview is shattered. Seriously, I would have never dreamed of addressing/speaking about a forum master as some of you have just done. I thought it was a foolproof way to get banned very quickly.
 
My worldview is shattered. Seriously, I would have never dreamed of addressing/speaking about a forum master as some of you have just done. I thought it was a foolproof way to get banned very quickly.
Last time I checked, Forum Master only means you’ve been around CAF for quite a while.
 
Portrait:

Greetings to you as well. I am doing well, thanks! Re: your post 143, as I read that, you appear to be mostly arguing from a postion of what I would call cultural association. Rock music is so entangled with a negative world view that the music itself can’t be separated from that orginal context:

I think this is a plausible theory as to why someone should avoid rock music, although I think it fails when one considers the wide breadth of works that are considered “rock” (from Beatles “Yesterday” to Led Zeppelin “Kashmir” all the way to Van Halen “Eruption”).

But this is very different from what I seem to hear in many of the posts here, which is that there is something inherently bad in the music itself.

Cheers,

JHow
Dear JHow,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your courteous contributions, dear friend ,which I always like reading.

It is not merely an issue of rock and pop’s immoral associations but rather a matter of these debased musical generes themselves being a conveyer of today’s immoral ethic. There is, for example a clear and undeniable filth connection between rock/pop and sex. Even Steven Lawhead (who is by no means ‘anti-rock’) concedes that “there is more blatant immorality being peddled in popular music than ever before” (Rock Reconsidered). The plain fact is that we cannot foster an erotic type of music and then expect to succeed in avoiding the gradual erosion of moral standards and a Christian outlook. Rock music per se, not just its immoral associations, conveys a message and that is the message of sexual permissiveness. As music affects one’s body one instinctively wants to put motions to it. Now what sort of motions are well-adapted to rock and pop music? Basically sensual motions. Clearly, if the message of rock and pop elicits that kind of response, then it is manifestly obvious that it is not good and wholesome music for a Christians ears.

Sadly, owing to many Catholics earthbound attachment to rock and pop (which, incidently, I fully understand, having been a devotee myself of this music in times past) there is a recalcitrant refusal to face up to the unsavoury nature of this debased sensory material and the high moral damage of which it has been the occasion. Even the most vociferous supporters of rock and pop would acknowledge that there is a great deal in the rock scene to disturb any tender Christian conscience. A large percentage of pop and rock numbers contain in their lyrics blatantly un-Christian morality, ranging from casual acceptance of pre-marital sex to the unspeakably pornographic, which is hardly surprising. No amount of pseudo-intellectual drivel about ‘listener oriented theories’ can circumvent this fact. If we are serious about the pursuit of sanctity and separation from the godless world, why would we ever wish to contaminate our souls with this lyrical pornography and sub-Christian bilge-water? Why, it defies belief. Entering the “narrow gate” that leads to the life everlasting is hard enough to acheive, without making it unnecessarily burdensome.

St. Paul exhorts us to “…cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God” (II Cor. 7: 1). We all have a searching responsibility to apply those principles to every aspect of life, including our choices in music. For many young Catholics (perhaps some older ones also), doing so would, of course, call for a radical transformation in their musical tastes and this they stubbornly refuse to do or even consider, prefering to remain in denial so that they can cling on to their pet passion.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Well, you have THIS and THIS, which indicate that the Vatican is unlikely to outright speak negatively against rock and pop music. There is no way the band mentioned on the second link (Third Day) is producing “unfruitful works of darkness”. In the words of the late Larry Norman, grandfather of the modern CCM/Christian Rock movement, “Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?” .
Dear ClayPots47,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response above.

With respect to your links, let me say first that L ’ Osservatore Romano is not the official organ of the Catholic Church, but merely a sort of quasi-official Vatican newspaper. It is not regualted by the Curia. Therefore, just because something appears within its pages that does not mean that it is the official position of the Church or the final word upon the matter. The mainstream media frequently errs in this regard but we Catholics ought not to do so. Thus we should take what we read in this very partisan newspaper with the proverbial grain of salt, especially in recent times.

As regards Pope Benedict, he is on record (Spirit of the Liturgy, Ignatius Press) as refering, in a very non-specific manner, to pop music as the “cult of the banal” and rock music as appealing to the “elemental passions”. Granted, this was said whilst he was Cardinal Ratzinger, but there is no good reason to assume that he has revised his thinking since the writing of that book. Moreover, his attendance at some Youth Rally does not necessarily mean the Holy Father’s approval of rock music, either in its secular or supposedly Christian manifestations.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
There is, for example a clear and undeniable filth connection between rock/pop and sex.
There is no doubt.
As music affects one’s body one instinctively wants to put motions to it. Now what sort of motions are well-adapted to rock and pop music? Basically sensual motions. Clearly, if the message of rock and pop elicits that kind of response, then it is manifestly obvious that it is not good and wholesome music for a Christians ears.
Yes. The passions can enter through the sense of hearing.
Sadly, owing to many Catholics earthbound attachment to rock and pop (which, incidently, I fully understand, having been a devotee myself of this music in times past) there is a recalcitrant refusal to face up to the unsavoury nature of this debased sensory material and the high moral damage of which it has been the occasion.
Indeed. It is an attachment that takes hold for decades—and not easily discarded.
Even the most vociferous supporters of rock and pop would acknowledge that there is a great deal in the rock scene to disturb any tender Christian conscience. A large percentage of pop and rock numbers contain in their lyrics blatantly un-Christian morality, ranging from casual acceptance of pre-marital sex to the unspeakably pornographic, which is hardly surprising. No amount of pseudo-intellectual drivel about ‘listener oriented theories’ can circumvent this fact…
You are correct. It is a reality.
If we are serious about the pursuit of sanctity and separation from the godless world, why would we ever wish to contaminate our souls with this lyrical pornography and sub-Christian bilge-water? Why, it defies belief. Entering the “narrow gate” that leads to the life everlasting is hard enough to acheive, without making it unnecessarily burdensome.
“Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.”
St. Paul exhorts us to “…cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God” (II Cor. 7: 1). We all have a searching responsibility to apply those principles to every aspect of life, including our choices in music. For many young Catholics (perhaps some older ones also), doing so would, of course, call for a radical transformation in their musical tastes and this they stubbornly refuse to do or even consider, prefering to remain in denial so that they can cling on to their pet passion.
Hence this thread! 😃
 
You who are in the world, dear friend, must guard yourself even more than those who are in the desert. St. Basil wrote to someone living in the world the following advice: “Do not relax your efforts because you are in the world. In fact you are in need of greater efforts and more vigilance to achieve salvation. After all you have chosen to live in the midst of all the pitfalls and in the very stronghold of the sinful powers. You have before you constantly the instigations of sins and day and night all of your senses are being attacked by their evil desires.” If we are overcome by the desire for food or drink, we do not experience such a strong attack. Being in a desolate place where one does not see or hear anything out of place or experience the other causes of sin, we are thus surrounded by a protective wall that helps to win our battles without wars, as St. Isaac said: “When one does not receive a sense perception, then he can have a victory without a struggle.” In other words, the monks who have removed themselves from the world are fighting behind trenches, but you are fighting an arm-to-arm combat against the enemies. The attacks are coming from all directions. And the causes of sin are all around you. While they stand afar off from the precipice, you are at its very edge. That great luminary of spiritual discretion, St. Poimen, once said: “Those who live far away from the world are like those who are far from a precipice and, whenever they are misled by the devil, before they reach the edge, they call upon God Who comes to save them. Those who live in the world, however, are like those who are near the precipice and when the devil draws them toward it, they have no time to call upon God and be saved but fall directly into the abyss.” Therefore, because you are so close to this abyss, you are in immediate danger just as soon as you neglect or open one of your senses. God forbid! This is the reason why you want to use all your energy to protect your senses from coming into contact with sin. As it is impossible for a house not to be darkened by smoke entering from the outside, it is similarly impossible for a man not to be harmed when he is not careful to guard his senses, but rather opens them without restraint, allowing all manner of passionate images to enter the soul. The wise St. Syngletike said, “Even when we do not want it, the thieves will enter through the senses. For how is it possible for a house not be darkened by the smoke entering from outside through the doors and windows that have been left opened?”
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain

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Evil is, after all, unnatural and a foreign element that has entered the nature of the mind, that was created good. Evil has no other way to enter the mind except through the senses from the outside. A ready proof and a trustful witness of this saying is Adam himself, that simple man who was the first to be created by the hand of God. Evil and the idea of sin entered into the mind of Adam not from inner thoughts, but from external influences through the senses, when the devil deceitfully advised Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. This is confirmed by St. Macarios, who said about Adam the following: “Adam was created pure by God to serve him. . . . However, the devil approached him and spoke to him and it was from without through the hearing that he was first received. It was after this that the devil entered his heart and pervaded his entire being.”
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain
 
What should we conclude from this? That every idea of evil and every form of passion enters the heart through the mediation and service of the senses. And if the senses are not guarded, then the evil passions are also not guarded. How can they be guarded and closed to such passions? Listen. The windows of the Temple of Solomon were covered with fine nets to prevent the entry of impure insects (cf. Ezk 41:6). This may serve as a reminder that he who does not want any impure passions of the senses to enter into his soul must drape his senses with [spiritual] nets. What are these nets? It is the memory of death, for one; our account before Christ on the day of judgment; the memory of eternal suffering. Through these, man can put away the evil passions and sins, when they come before his eyes and his other senses. St. Neilos has confirmed that this is so: “Those who desire to keep their mind as a clean and pure temple, where the doors and windows are covered with fine nets to prevent the entry of any impure insects, must similarly cover their senses by meditating on the sobering realities of the future judgment which prevent the entry of any impure images to creep in.”
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain
 
Last time I checked, Forum Master only means you’ve been around CAF for quite a while.
Indeed. Besides I don’t care if he becomes a moderator there’s no denying his avoidance of facts and logic. That’s not an insult, it’s a statement of fact.
 
You who are in the world, dear friend, must guard yourself even more than those who are in the desert. St. Basil wrote to someone living in the world the following advice: “Do not relax your efforts because you are in the world. In fact you are in need of greater efforts and more vigilance to achieve salvation. After all you have chosen to live in the midst of all the pitfalls and in the very stronghold of the sinful powers. You have before you constantly the instigations of sins and day and night all of your senses are being attacked by their evil desires.” If we are overcome by the desire for food or drink, we do not experience such a strong attack. Being in a desolate place where one does not see or hear anything out of place or experience the other causes of sin, we are thus surrounded by a protective wall that helps to win our battles without wars, as St. Isaac said: “When one does not receive a sense perception, then he can have a victory without a struggle.” In other words, the monks who have removed themselves from the world are fighting behind trenches, but you are fighting an arm-to-arm combat against the enemies. The attacks are coming from all directions. And the causes of sin are all around you. While they stand afar off from the precipice, you are at its very edge. That great luminary of spiritual discretion, St. Poimen, once said: “Those who live far away from the world are like those who are far from a precipice and, whenever they are misled by the devil, before they reach the edge, they call upon God Who comes to save them. Those who live in the world, however, are like those who are near the precipice and when the devil draws them toward it, they have no time to call upon God and be saved but fall directly into the abyss.” Therefore, because you are so close to this abyss, you are in immediate danger just as soon as you neglect or open one of your senses. God forbid! This is the reason why you want to use all your energy to protect your senses from coming into contact with sin. As it is impossible for a house not to be darkened by smoke entering from the outside, it is similarly impossible for a man not to be harmed when he is not careful to guard his senses, but rather opens them without restraint, allowing all manner of passionate images to enter the soul. The wise St. Syngletike said, “Even when we do not want it, the thieves will enter through the senses. For how is it possible for a house not be darkened by the smoke entering from outside through the doors and windows that have been left opened?”
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain

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%between%
Mickey:

To be honest, these are arguments in favor of monasticism - they apply to far more than just rock music. You could level these arguments against subscribing to the daily newspaper (or debating people on Internet forums), or listening to any sort of music at all (except perhaps in a strict religious context).

A relevant question would be where you would draw the line? If rock is bad per se, how about other genres and ensembles, such as: blues, country, folk, big band, military marches, mariachi bands?
 
To be honest, these are arguments in favor of monasticism
Some are called to be monastics in the “desert”…and we are all called to be monastics in the world. Either way, we are called to be watchful and to guard our senses.
If rock is bad per se, how about other genres and ensembles, such as: blues, country, folk, big band, military marches, mariachi bands?
I supposed discernment would be applied to each individual song.

What is the message?
Does it stir unhealthy passions?
What type of example is set by the musicians who may be emulated the listener?
Etc…
 
Well I’ll say my opinion again…

Take a song like "Immigrant Song" from Zeppelin…it’s about the vikings of the Dark Ages, just history, harmless IMO

Take the song Ten Years Gone, a favorite of mine, it’s about a relationship that didn’t work but that left a lasting good memory

Take the song Achilles’ Last Stand, mythology tune

**When the Levee Breaks **is a blues tune, classic blues

Stairway to Heaven, about materialism, the need to go in a different direction, being a lost soul that still has time to find the right path

I’m Gonna Crawl, Otis Retting-inspired bluesy love song

Communication Breakdown, just a fun, rockin’ tune

All of my Love—Plant’s song to his son, Karak, who died as a little boy

In the Evening, Nobody’s Fault but Mine, Kashmir, all Middle-Eastern-inspired tunes

Now obviously the Lemon Song, Since I’ve Been Lovin’ You and a host of other ones are love songs that can get a touch juicy and sleezy. No rock band is perfect! 😛

I don’t find them diabolical and don’t buy into the occult influence angle at all.
 
What should we conclude from this? That every idea of evil and every form of passion enters the heart through the mediation and service of the senses. And if the senses are not guarded, then the evil passions are also not guarded. How can they be guarded and closed to such passions? Listen. The windows of the Temple of Solomon were covered with fine nets to prevent the entry of impure insects (cf. Ezk 41:6). This may serve as a reminder that he who does not want any impure passions of the senses to enter into his soul must drape his senses with [spiritual] nets. What are these nets? It is the memory of death, for one; our account before Christ on the day of judgment; the memory of eternal suffering. Through these, man can put away the evil passions and sins, when they come before his eyes and his other senses. St. Neilos has confirmed that this is so: “Those who desire to keep their mind as a clean and pure temple, where the doors and windows are covered with fine nets to prevent the entry of any impure insects, must similarly cover their senses by meditating on the sobering realities of the future judgment which prevent the entry of any impure images to creep in.”
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain
Dear Mickey,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Thankyou for those extracts from St. Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain. This is strong meat indeed and seems so far removed from the ‘Catholicism Lite’ and the hand in hand with world type of religion that so many within the Church have now sadly embraced.

The whole rock and pop music debate is really about the much broader issue of sanctity and separation from the godless world, something which the saints of old would have clearly grasped. Indeed, I would venture to say that the whole topic of sanctity and separation is the elephant in the room because sanctification and mortification are probably two of the most unfashionable subjects in the contemporary Church, right across the denominational divides. Invariably, when you raise the topic of holiness and self-denial you are accused of wanting to take the Church in a Puritan direction and even of seriously damaging its credibility in the eyes of the world, who will, or so it is argued, dismiss us all as a bunch hidebound religious fanatics and prissy prudes. In point of fact, the very opposite is the case, because the Church is always respected when it is most unlike the world and has the courage to be different and challenging to ungodliness.

We are all, without exception, called to a life of sanctity and separation from all that is impious and unwholesome. The pursuit od holiness is not some sort of optional extra for the very keen, but a requirement for every man who names the name of Christ - in the modern parlance we must walk the walk, for without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Heb. 12: 14). "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fulness of the Christian life and to the perfection of charity. All are called to holiness, ‘Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect’ (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2013). Now positively this will include, of course, works of mercy and service to our neighbour; we must seek to do good in whatever capacity that we can. However, negatively, this will involve a rejection of all that is contrary to a profession of godliness and the life of faith, for “The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle” (CCC, para. 2015). Thus evidently we are all called to be ‘spiritual types’, for that is the very essence of authentic Christian living, at least according to the Church and Sacred Scripture.

Our dear Lord said to His disciples that they were to be the “salt of the earth” (S. Matt. 5: 13), in other words they were to be a sort of moral disinfectant in a fallen world where moral standards are at an exceedingly low ebb, constantly changing, and sometimes virtually non-existent. Now if they, and we, are to do this effectively it is imperative that we do not become assimilated to the world and tainted by its many impurities. This will necessarily involve giving a wide berth to debased sensory material such as rock and pop music and culturally unwholesome films and TV programmes, which poison the mind and demoralize the life. The monumetal failure of Christians to do just this in recent times has seriously hindered the mission of the Church in the modern world. The Laodicean plight of the Church is inexcusable and we ought to hang our heads in shame and repent in sackcloth and ashes. This unwillingness on the part of multitudes of Catholics to heed the summons to sanctity and separation from the world is deplorable and is in complete disobedience to the teaching of Holy Mother Church.

Dearly beloved, if the extent of our worldliness is such that we are indistinguishable from our pagan neighbour, then we are clearly not sanctified and fit for our Master’s use and have become like saltless salt, that is useless and only fit to be cast out and trodden under the foot of men. Moreover, we have also failed miserably to provide a vibrant Christian counter-culture that our troubled world needs so urgently. Our witness to the world will be underpined when Christians keep their distance from that which is morally repugnant and unwholesone, such as rock and pop music. It is this that will make us attractive to non-Christians, because they will, at length, respect us for daring to be different and for daring to stand alone, even as Daniel of old (cf. Dan 1: 8).

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Thankyou for those extracts from St. Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain. This is strong meat indeed and seems so far removed from the ‘Catholicism Lite’ and the hand in hand with world type of religion that so many within the Church have now sadly embraced.

The whole rock and pop music debate is really about the much broader issue of sanctity and separation from the godless world, something which the saints of old would have clearly grasped. Indeed, I would venture to say that the whole topic of sanctity and separation is the elephant in the room because sanctification and mortification are probably two of the most unfashionable subjects in the contemporary Church, right across the denominational divides. Invariably, when you raise the topic of holiness and self-denial you are accused of wanting to take the Church in a Puritan direction and even of seriously damaging its credibility in the eyes of the world, who will, or so it is argued, dismiss us all as a bunch hidebound religious fanatics and prissy prudes. In point of fact, the very opposite is the case, because the Church is always respected when it is most unlike the world and has the courage to be different and challenging to ungodliness.

We are all, without exception, called to a life of sanctity and separation from all that is impious and unwholesome. The pursuit od holiness is not some sort of optional extra for the very keen, but a requirement for every man who names the name of Christ - in the modern parlance we must walk the walk, for without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Heb. 12: 14). "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fulness of the Christian life and to the perfection of charity. All are called to holiness, ‘Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect’ (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2013). Now positively this will include, of course, works of mercy and service to our neighbour; we must seek to do good in whatever capacity that we can. However, negatively, this will involve a rejection of all that is contrary to a profession of godliness and the life of faith, for “The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle” (CCC, para. 2015). Thus evidently we are all called to be ‘spiritual types’, for that is the very essence of authentic Christian living, at least according to the Church and Sacred Scripture.

Our dear Lord said to His disciples that they were to be the “salt of the earth” (S. Matt. 5: 13), in other words they were to be a sort of moral disinfectant in a fallen world where moral standards are at an exceedingly low ebb, constantly changing, and sometimes virtually non-existent. Now if they, and we, are to do this effectively it is imperative that we do not become assimilated to the world and tainted by its many impurities. This will necessarily involve giving a wide berth to debased sensory material such as rock and pop music and culturally unwholesome films and TV programmes, which poison the mind and demoralize the life. The monumetal failure of Christians to do just this in recent times has seriously hindered the mission of the Church in the modern world. The Laodicean plight of the Church is inexcusable and we ought to hang our heads in shame and repent in sackcloth and ashes. This unwillingness on the part of multitudes of Catholics to heed the summons to sanctity and separation from the world is deplorable and is in complete disobedience to the teaching of Holy Mother Church.

Dearly beloved, if the extent of our worldliness is such that we are indistinguishable from our pagan neighbour, then we are clearly not sanctified and fit for our Master’s use and have become like saltless salt, that is useless and only fit to be cast out and trodden under the foot of men. Moreover, we have also failed miserably to provide a vibrant Christian counter-culture that our troubled world needs so urgently. Our witness to the world will be underpined when Christians keep their distance from that which is morally repugnant and unwholesone, such as rock and pop music. It is this that will make us attractive to non-Christians, because they will, at length, respect us for daring to be different and for daring to stand alone, even as Daniel of old (cf. Dan 1: 8).
There is nothing I can add to this superb post. Your words ring true…in troubled world.

Peace and prayers,
Mickey
 
…Our witness to the world will be underpined when Christians keep their distance from that which is morally repugnant and unwholesone, such as rock and pop music. It is this that will make us attractive to non-Christians, because they will, at length, respect us for daring to be different and for daring to stand alone, even as Daniel of old (cf. Dan 1: 8).
Our witness to the world can also be damaged if we appear to approach the subject of art (of which music is a part) with no understanding. If we don’t understand modern people, how can we expect to talk meaningfully to them?

The link below is a clip of Chester Burnett (a.k.a. Howlin’ Wolf), briefly explaining what “blues” is. You don’t have to listen to the song, just the first 45 seconds. The short version is that this art form deals with people and their reaction to hard times - although the message may be crude, it is grounded in reality - the real world, the way people sometimes experience it. When I listen to the song, I don’t see it as an endorsement of hard living or bad relationships, or crime, sex or violence - I see it as a window into what is happening in some people’s lives, which is to say, truth. It is easy criticism to simply stamp “I Disapprove” on it and leave it at that. I think we can read, listen to and look at art that may not be entirely or predominately Chrisitan and still try to understand what is real and true in it. I also think we have to take people were we find them, like the woman at the well. Now that I think about it, “You have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband…” would make an excellent blues lyric.

Anyhow, if only today’s pop singers wore suit and ties, huh?

youtube.com/watch?v=4Ou-6A3MKow
 
My first guitar was an Ibanez Roadstar II. I love it sentimentally but boy was that sucker junky! I’m a Fender guy—one Strat and one Tele in my house…Ibanez’s high-end stuff kicks butt…
Of course i’m more into metal myself. I have a Squier Strat,but it doesn’t have the correct tone for metal. The Ibanez i got has stuff like high-output pickups. I feel the best are Ibanez,ESP/LTD.,BC Rich(their more expensive stuff),Schecter.

The guitarist for Megadeth uses a Ibanez.
 
We should probably start a new thread to talk about gear.

But, let’s tie it into the discussion of Led Zeppelin by noting the following: if rock music is irredeemably tainted by it’s cultural associations, can guitars and amps also be so tainted?

For instance, if Jimmy Page favored Marshalls or Hiwatts for performing, are Marshalls and Hiwatts too much associated with rock music to be used for anything else?
 
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