Led zeppelin!!!

[gurneyhalleck1]

I use Fender amps and gear so as long as no Satanists use that I’m good!

We should probably start a new thread to talk about gear.

But, let’s tie it into the discussion of Led Zeppelin by noting the following: if rock music is irredeemably tainted by it’s cultural associations, can guitars and amps also be so tainted?

For instance, if Jimmy Page favored Marshalls or Hiwatts for performing, are Marshalls and Hiwatts too much associated with rock music to be used for anything else?

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

I supposed discernment would be applied to each individual song.

What is the message?
Does it stir unhealthy passions?
What type of example is set by the musicians who may be emulated the listener?
Etc…

YES! This is it! This is what we’ve all been saying, and you and Portrait have spent a dozen pages denying! Why does blues get this sort of pass, but not rock? Please be consistent.

And also, remember that stirring unhealthy passions is completely a subjective thing. If “Stairway to Heaven” were to turn you into a sex-crazed maniac (hypothetically), that in no way means that it must have the same effect on me (and it doesn’t). Moreover, the example set by the musician is also subjective, and may not even be known by the listener. If I just turn on the radio and hear “Eight Days a Week,” I may not know anything about the drug-induced haze that the Beatles went through. By your own standards, it should be fine to listen to, as long as I don’t investigate the off-stage antics.

Of course, I am also fully capable of not emulating any sinful example set by a musician, even after I learn of it.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think also as a guitarist sometimes we musicians see a tune in light of the sound, the groove, the licks, the overall scheme of it, not necessarily even the genre or the morality of it. Honestly I think Ozzy Osbourne has the greatest metal voice along with Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden of all time. I adore the guitar style of Randy Rhodes, Adrian Smith, the sound of Dio, a bunch of metal bands, but I don’t own the music because they get a little too devilish despite the fact I know it was silly and just to sell albums. But Zeppelin and some of those classic rock bands were far from diabolical…

Yes, blues can get raunchy but gets a free pass like you said…

I guess everyone has to figure out their own limitations and make sure that, if the music starts to influence them or shape their thinking, they need to deep-six it.

YES! This is it! This is what we’ve all been saying, and you and Portrait have spent a dozen pages denying! Why does blues get this sort of pass, but not rock? Please be consistent.

And also, remember that stirring unhealthy passions is completely a subjective thing. If “Stairway to Heaven” were to turn you into a sex-crazed maniac (hypothetically), that in no way means that it must have the same effect on me (and it doesn’t). Moreover, the example set by the musician is also subjective, and may not even be known by the listener. If I just turn on the radio and hear “Eight Days a Week,” I may not know anything about the drug-induced haze that the Beatles went through. By your own standards, it should be fine to listen to, as long as I don’t investigate the off-stage antics.

Of course, I am also fully capable of not emulating any sinful example set by a musician, even after I learn of it.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[Mickey]

you and Portrait have spent a dozen pages denying!

Huh?

Why does blues get this sort of pass, but not rock?

Nothing gets a pass. We must be watchful.

And also, remember that stirring unhealthy passions is completely a subjective thing.

"Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour. "

Moreover, the example set by the musician is also subjective, and may not even be known by the listener.

You are joking right? People, (especially the youth), idolize their favorite musicians…how they dress, the booze they drink, the drugs they take, the religion they practice…they know everything…and they want to be like them. Do you remember the commercial about Michael Jordan–“I want to be like Mike.”

Zeppelin may have a few songs which seem benign, but the bulk of their work either directly or indirectly provides images of sex, occult, drugs, etc. Jimmy page was a notorious heroin addict and followed Allister Crowley. I could go on and on…but I think you understand the premise.

 

[Mickey]

On the contrary.
Recently, a report has been released regarding the child abuse scandal in the US Catholic Church which was commissioned by Catholic bishops. The report concludes that the peak incidence of sexual abuse by priests in the 1960s and 70s reflected the increased level of other deviant behaviours in American society in the period, including “drug use and crime, as well as social changes, such as an increase in premarital sex and divorce.”

If “the world” (society) can be responsible for inflaming the passions of an ordained priest to commit unspeakable crimes against our youth—do you think music which glamorizes drugs, violence, and sex could do the same thing? Think about it.

“Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.”

 

[Mickey]

It is all over the internet. It goes on to say that poor seminary training is also a factor. You are not the only one who disagrees with the findings. But it cannot be denied that societal factors (the world) can, and does, inflame the passions which leads to sin. It has been taught by the Church from the beginning. And secular music is part of the “the world”.

 

[Mickey]

Music is of two kinds (as are the other arts also)—secular and ecclesiastical. Each of these has been developed by different feelings and different states of the soul. Secular music expresses worldly (i.e., carnal) feelings and desires. Although these feelings may be very refined (romantic, sentimental, idealistic, etc.), they do not cease being carnal. Nevertheless, many people believe that these feelings are spiritual. However, spiritual feelings are expressed only by ecclesiastical music. Only ecclesiastical music can truly express the secret movements of the heart, which are entirely different from those inspired and developed by secular music. That is, it expresses contrition, humility, suffering and godly grief, which, as Paul says, “worketh repentance to salvation.” Ecclesiastical music can also evoke feelings of praise, thanksgiving, and holy enthusiasm. Secular music, on the other hand—even the purest—expresses carnal emotions, even when it is inspired by suffering and affliction. This type of suffering, Paul calls “worldly grief,” which “worketh death.”
Photios Kontoglou

 

[mdrummer5]

If “the world” (society) can be responsible for inflaming the passions of an ordained priest to commit unspeakable crimes against our youth—do you think music which glamorizes drugs, violence, and sex could do the same thing? Think about it.

My girlfriend works for a correctional facility as a cognitive behavioral specialist. She deals with criminals of all types day in and day out… how many times do you think she hears “society made me this way”.

By this ridiculous logic they’re correct. If society is responsible for “inflaming the passions” blablablabla then a criminal who claims that it’s society’s fault he was “forced” to become a thief, drug dealer or whatever is absolutely right.

“I couldn’t get a job so I was forced to rob that bank”

“I couldn’t support my family with the job I had so I became a drug dealer”

These are normal everyday thought patterns of a criminal. It’s a problem with the individual… not society. I live in that same society… I struggle to make ends meet… I listen to metal and watch movies and play video games that people on this forum wouldn’t even be able to handle reading about and I’m not a child molestor… or a thief or drug dealer or whatever. It’s a lame excuse for a horrible act, nothing more.

 

[Mickey]

how many times do you think she hears “society made me this way”.

There’s nothing humorous about that.

If society is responsible for “inflaming the passions” blablablabla

You can “blablablabla” all you want—but the world is a factor.

These are normal everyday thought patterns of a criminal.

And these thoughts come from the world, or the devil, or sometimes within ourselves…and they can inflame the passions. The problem lies within our willingness to entertain these thoughts.

I listen to metal and watch movies and play video games that people on this forum wouldn’t even be able to handle reading about

You have free will.

 

[Mickey]

I do not know what to call that. But I can tell you that it is not Ecclesiatical.

 

[mdrummer5]

You can “blablablabla” all you want—but the world is a factor.

You have free will.

Exactly.

The world is a factor but we have free will. Criminals whether they are pedifile priests, thiefs or drug dealers have free will but want to blame society for their actions… as you just tried to do in stating that society is “responsible for inflaming the passions of an ordained priest to commit unspeakable crimes against our youth”. Again you fail to see logic and only end up contradicting yourself.

And actually hearing someone say “society made me this way” is quite funny because it’s a ridiculous excuse for someone who doesn’t want to take responsibility for their actions… it’s funny because when judgment happens do you think God will accept “I’m sorry God, I know you gave me free will… but society made me sin against you”?

 

[JHow]

…Secular music expresses worldly (i.e., carnal) feelings and desires…
Photios Kontoglou

And this is where you err. Secular music can be about sex, violence, etc., but it can also be explaining the truth of the world as it is, even when it talks about sex and violence, etc. In so far as a song is telling an important truth (as I suggested many blues songs do just that) I think it is possible to appreciate it as a work of art.

I also think, from the perspective of turning to God, this is only possible if we understand and recognize the fallen nature of man and society. If someone listens to a blues song and comes away understanding that sin exists, that man is fallen, that we need redemption, then he has learned something valuable from the music.

 

[JHow]

…I think also as a guitarist sometimes we musicians see a tune in light of the sound, the groove, the licks, the overall scheme of it, not necessarily even the genre or the morality of it…

Which is partly why I keep asking how the music itself is bad and what is it in the music that makes is bad?

To your point, I don’t let my kids listen to “Diary of a Madman”, but Randy Rhoads’ guitar work on that track is phenomenal - and classically influenced, as well. Are fifths and diminshed chords inherently evil - or do they just sound bad?

 

[Mickey]

And this is where you err.

No it’s not.

Secular music arouses emotion. Ecclesiastical music arouses contrition.

 

[Mickey]

It is not a part of our tradition.

 

[Mickey]

You can call it sacred if you like…but it’s not.

 

[JHow]

Good example. Son House is brilliant. Moving. This is kind of stuff Zeppelin wanted to emulate.

This whole topics kind of makes me wonder, does no one read Ecclesiastes anymore? Job? If it were set to music, it wouldn’t be bubble-gum pop, that’s for sure.

 

[wynnejj]

I love Led Zeppelin - musically and without lyrics. Much rock and roll is undeniably depraved in the word images that are portrayed. I have discovered MIDI files for Led Zeppelin that are very good. Music without the disturbing word images.

 

[mdrummer5]

I love Led Zeppelin - musically and without lyrics. Much rock and roll is undeniably depraved in the word images that are portrayed. I have discovered MIDI files for Led Zeppelin that are very good. Music without the disturbing word images.

Sorry wynnejj… you obviously missed the posts earlier that explained that the music itself is bad even without lyrics

 

[Mickey]

as you just tried to do in stating that society is “responsible for inflaming the passions of an ordained priest to commit unspeakable crimes against our youth”.

LOL! Your bishops commissioned that study. But I agree that the world is a cause for the passions—but we can either act on it or not. And in the case of Led Zeppelin, I prefer to not expose myself to it.

And actually hearing someone say “society made me this way” is quite funny because it’s a ridiculous excuse for someone who doesn’t want to take responsibility for their actions…

These people are looking for reasons for their downfall. They are partly correct. The world introduced the ideas…and they accepted them. They should not be mocked. We are all sinners.

it’s funny because when judgment happens do you think God will accept “I’m sorry God, I know you gave me free will… but society made me sin against you”?

It will be more like this. “God, I know that you gave me free will. And I willingly subjected myself to carnal pleasures. I promise to change my mind and my heart. Please forgive me…I am a wretched sinner.”