Leeann, a question for you and anyone else who might like to answer.

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Claire_from_DE said:
I’m not convinced that the Trinity could be discerned solely from scripture if it had not already been taught by the Catholic church prior to the reformation.
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As well you should not. We see that there are groups today who, being separated from Apostolic Teaching, discern from scripture that there is not a Trinity, and that Jesus is not God.
 
guanophore said:
As well you should not. We see that there are groups today who, being separated from Apostolic Teaching, discern from scripture that there is not a Trinity, and that Jesus is not God.
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That doesn’t prove that the teaching of the Trinity isnt revealed in the scripture, and it doesn’t prove that the early church didn’t discern the Trinity from the Scripture.

🤷 They had no place else from which to understand the Trinity. Read their statements concerning it. The Trinity not merely your tradition, it’s revealed in the scripture.
 
sandusky said:
That doesn’t prove that the teaching of the Trinity isnt revealed in the scripture, and it doesn’t prove that the early church didn’t discern the Trinity from the Scripture.

🤷 They had no place else from which to understand the Trinity. Read their statements concerning it. The Trinity not merely your tradition, it’s revealed in the scripture.
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The Trinity, as well as the ontological deity of the Son and the Spirit, are implicitly revealed in the scriptures. The Church believed these truths since Pentecost before the New Testament was written and compiled by the end of the first century. Sacred Tradition of the Church gave birth to Sacred Scripture as it is meant to be understood by the faithful in all generations. Scripture must be intrepreted in light of Apostolic Tradition. The early Church Fathers will tell you that. Gee, Protestants can’t even agree with each other on the significance of baptism, for example. The scriptures don’t seem to be doing you any good. Sola Scriptura = disunity of faith. You can’t deny it. Meanwhile, the orthodox understanding of the Trinity is clearly understood by the medium of Sacred Tradition. Scripture alone is unclear and ambiguous. Arguing otherwise amounts to hindsight bias.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Consequently, we too receive the Holy Spirit if we love the Church, if we are joined together by charity, if we rejoice in the Catholic name and faith. Let us believe, brethren; as much as every man loves the Church of Christ, so much has he the Holy Spirit.
–Saint Augustine (Tractatus in Io 32, 8 )​
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Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

I wonder if Augustine could speak in tongues?
 
Good_Fella said:
The Trinity, as well as the ontological deity of the Son and the Spirit, are implicitly revealed in the scriptures. The Church believed these truths since Pentecost before the New Testament was written and compiled by the end of the first century. Sacred Tradition of the Church gave birth to Sacred Scripture as it is meant to be understood by the faithful in all generations. Scripture must be intrepreted in light of Apostolic Tradition. The early Church Fathers will tell you that. Gee, Protestants can’t even agree with each other on the significance of baptism, for example. The scriptures don’t seem to be doing you any good. Sola Scriptura = disunity of faith. You can’t deny it. Meanwhile, the orthodox understanding of the Trinity is clearly understood by the medium of Sacred Tradition. Scripture alone is unclear and ambiguous. Arguing otherwise amounts to hindsight bias.
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They got it from the Scripture, and Catholic unity is myth. For as many Catholics as there are, there are as many interpretations of what the church means by what she teaches. 🤷
 
sandusky said:
They got it from the scripture.
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Umm…Many of the Early Church Fathers lived during a time when the canon was not established, so how would they have known what was Scripture and what wasn’t. Most quote from non Scriptural sources. They knew from the Deposit of Faith, of which Scripture is a part.
 
Scientiphic said:
Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

I wonder if Augustine could speak in tongues?
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I don’t know. Read 1 Corinthians 12 - not everyone receives every gift. Saint Augustine was a Bishop and Doctor, and thus was given gifts necessary for that office.
 
sandusky said:
They got it from the Scripture, and Catholic unity is myth. For as many Catholics as there are, there are as many interpretations of what the church means by what she teaches. 🤷
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Horsepucky - in plain English. 😛

Catholics do not interpret Scriptures according to their personal whims, but do so only in light of the Magisterium - the authentic and authoritative interpreter of Sacred Scripture and Tradition.
 
sandusky said:
They got it from the Scripture, and Catholic unity is myth. For as many Catholics as there are, there are as many interpretations of what the church means by what she teaches. 🤷
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Have you been drinking? 🤷

There is only one Catechism of the Catholic Church. :yup:
 
justasking4 said:
These doctrines were never taught by the apostles to which John refers to in verse 6 as a “test” to determine if it is of the HS or not.
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You have not been able to access these teachings because you have not receved the Source of them, and those to whom the teachings were entrusted. 🤷

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16

If a person reject the ones that Jesus entrusted with the Teaching, then what they can learn will be very limited.
justasking4 said:
True. Howver no one knows what these “other things” were since they were never recorded for us.
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Actually, I think a person would be very hard put to find a Sacred Tradition that is not recorded somewhere. From the early prayers, liturgies, creeds, catechisms, Writings of the Fathers, letters, etc.

The Apostolic Faith was never intended to be confined to the Holy Scripture.
justasking4 said:
The problem you have is that you don’t know what these oral Traditions were. They were never recorded.
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Well, speak for yourself! 😉

Catholics have everything recorded, in our hearts as well as on paper.
justasking4 said:
Here is what the catechism says about this:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this about the Treasury of Merit:
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Are you trying to derail this thread because you cannot address the question?

If you want to bring calumny against the Holy Bride of Christ about the treasury of merit, please open a new thread. :tsktsk:
 
sandusky said:
🤷 They understood it from the scripture.
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Yes, because, like all good Catholics, they read the scriptures in the light of the Apostolic Teaching. 👍
sandusky said:
That doesn’t prove that the teaching of the Trinity isnt revealed in the scripture, and it doesn’t prove that the early church didn’t discern the Trinity from the Scripture.
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I think that scripture can “prove” very little. It represents the doctrine of our faith, and it is easy to “prove” errors with it, as many heretics have done. The Arians and the Gnostics also used the same scripture.

We are in agreement that the mystery of the Trinity is revealed in scripture. However, it is not visible to those who approach it in doubt. The Fathers did not need to “discern” this Teaching from scripture, since they had received it in it’s fullness from the successors of the Apostles. They could confirm what they believed from the Scripture because they read it in the light of the faith. This has always been the proper use of scripture.

Luke 1:1-4
1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, 2 just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent The-oph’ilus, 4 **that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed. **

The scripture supports the Apostolic Teaching from whence it came.
sandusky said:
🤷 They had no place else from which to understand the Trinity. Read their statements concerning it. The Trinity not merely your tradition, it’s revealed in the scripture.
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I think you must cling to the idea that “they had no place else” in order to reinforce your SS doctrine. You are wrong, however, they had the Teaching of the Apostles.

I agree, the doctrine of the Trinity is not merely found in the Sacred Tradition, but it is also reflected in the Scriptures.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Umm…Many of the Early Church Fathers lived during a time when the canon was not established, so how would they have known what was Scripture and what wasn’t. Most quote from non Scriptural sources. They knew from the Deposit of Faith, of which Scripture is a part.
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For many, the scripture had not been compiled into the canon, in their time, but they had the scripture, both the OT, and the NT.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Horsepucky - in plain English. 😛

Catholics do not interpret Scriptures according to their personal whims, but do so only in light of the Magisterium - the authentic and authoritative interpreter of Sacred Scripture and Tradition.
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🤷 IOW, Catholics don’t interpret scripture.
 
JMJ_coder said:
I will NOT! Any spirit that drives you from the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is not a holy spirit!
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Essentially you’re making the statement that anyone outside the Roman church is a heretic and possibly demon-influenced if not possessed.

I’m sure there are plenty of Catholics who started off by initially accepting Jesus through the ministry of Billy Graham (who has reached something like 2.5 billion people through various forms of media and seen somewhere around 3 million people accept Jesus live at his crusades, to say nothing of those in the privacy of their own homes).
 
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