Lefebvre´s "Letter to Confused Catholics" is awesome!

[CassiusLonginus]

Is it then that all who are not Roman Catholics cannot attain salvation?

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is a dogma, is it not?

What happens to them? Are they all condemmed to eternal fire? Our protestant brothers who do not have the fullness of truth as we have can still attain glory. So then, why not the Jews?

The Church has said that some people, a few righteous people, through invincible ignorance (and in a few other ways) who are not Catholics but live according to God’s laws written on their hearts may yet attain salvation, but this has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. I wish I could get a straight answer as to whether Judaism is a true or false religion and a true vehicle by which one can attain salvation (not through ignorance, but simply through the practice of that religion even if they are aware of the Church and her teachings etc.).

It is up to God in His mercy and grace to determine who is saved, not us.

True, but God did establish a church on earth, did He not? That “church” is not Judaism, correct???

I recommend you read the writings and letters of Polycarp and Irineus.

They were both rather prolific, were they not? Can you suggest anything in particular so that I don’t have to read every last thing either of them wrote, and can instead just get to the pertinent aspects?

Remember, Judaism and Christianity
both have God as their source, all others are man made, which include the psuedo-Christian cults (Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science, etc,) and are therefore
to be considered false.

What about the Muslims? I read recently that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God, i.e. the God of Abraham. So is Islam a man-made religion? My gut instinct is to say that both Judaism as it is practiced today (because Christ came and re-established His Church, aka the Catholic Church) and Islam are both false religions.

Also, we pray not only for the conversion of the Jews, but for all.

Right. Exactly. But why pray for the conversion of Jews if, as you seem to want to say but have a hard time just coming out and saying, Judaism is not a false religion.

Question for you: In your opinion (or the Church’s, if you can furnish it), is Judaism a false religion today?

 

[CassiusLonginus]

I hope you are kidding. A saint that has left Jesus’ Church?

It sounds like you don’t know too much about the ins and outs of his situation so I’ll just say this: his canonization is definitely possible. He may be vindicated yet. Time will tell. There are excellent arguments in his favor despite JPII’s somewhat unclear censure.

 

[maurin]

I hope you are kidding. A saint that has left Jesus’ Church?

It sounds like you don’t know too much about the ins and outs of his situation so I’ll just say this: his canonization is definitely possible. He may be vindicated yet. Time will tell. There are excellent arguments in his favor despite JPII’s somewhat unclear censure.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre the Great, pray for us!

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre the Great, pray for us!

Amen. Good to see you, Maurin.

 

[EasterJoy]

I never said that God has forsaken the Jews. God hasn’t forsaken anybody (which is why he sent His son to redeem all men)…I simply question whether the Jews are still “The Chosen People”. I thought that His chosen people are the ones who belong to his Church. If God’s Church is the Catholic Church, my question remains the same as before: Is Judaism still a “true religion”, or is Judaism, as it has been practiced for the last 2000 years a false religion? Catholicism is the road to heaven. Is Judaism another sure road to heaven? In other words, does God have two churches, and either is an acceptable vehicle to get to heaven (either the Catholic Church or Judaism)???

The Catholic Church is the depository of God’s inerrant truth, and that’s exactly the reason I’m questioning why Judaism wouldn’t be considered a false religion. Do they also have valid sacraments? Are they guided by the Holy Ghost? Are they indeed “God’s Chosen People” still? I thought that God’s chosen people, for the last 2000 years, were to be found in the Catholic Church, not in the synagogue.

Uh, what? I don’t know how I’ve put myself in a catch 22…It seems like the opposite to me. It seems like everybody is saying Judaism is not a false religion, yet at the same time I thought that Catholicism was the only true religion. So which is it, just Catholicism, or both Catholicism and Judaism are the true religions? Also, are God’s chosen people the folks who are today known as Jews, or are His chosen people the people that are today known as Catholics? Please explain.

Your dichotomy between true and false religion is a false one. It is misleading to put Judaism in the same boat with, for instance, the polytheistic worship of the Greeks.

Read the Epistle to the Romans, as suggested. Especially:

“Brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, lest you be conceited; blindness has come upon part of Israel until the full number of Gentiles enter in, and then all Israel will be saved. As Scripture says, “Out of Zion will come the deliverer who shall remove all impiety from Jacob; and this is the covenant I will make with them when I take away their sins.” In respect to the gospel, the Jews are enemies of God for your sake; in respect to the election, they are beloved by him because of the patriarchs. God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.”
“Just as you were once disobedient to God and now have received mercy through their disobedience, so they have become disobedient–since God wished to show you mercy–that they too may receive mercy. God has imprisoned all in disobedience that he might have mercy on all.” Romans 11:25-32

 

[DonLeon]

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is a dogma, is it not?

The Church has said that some people, a few righteous people, through invincible ignorance (and in a few other ways) who are not Catholics but live according to God’s laws written on their hearts may yet attain salvation, but this has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. I wish I could get a straight answer as to whether Judaism is a true or false religion and a true vehicle by which one can attain salvation (not through ignorance, but simply through the practice of that religion even if they are aware of the Church and her teachings etc.).

True, but God did establish a church on earth, did He not? That “church” is not Judaism, correct???

They were both rather prolific, were they not? Can you suggest anything in particular so that I don’t have to read every last thing either of them wrote, and can instead just get to the pertinent aspects?

What about the Muslims? I read recently that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God, i.e. the God of Abraham. So is Islam a man-made religion? My gut instinct is to say that both Judaism as it is practiced today (because Christ came and re-established His Church, aka the Catholic Church) and Islam are both false religions.

Right. Exactly. But why pray for the conversion of Jews if, as you seem to want to say but have a hard time just coming out and saying, Judaism is not a false religion.

Question for you: In your opinion (or the Church’s, if you can furnish it), is Judaism a false religion today?

I have tried to explain it to you the best way i could. I guess I failed to make myself clear.
Please read St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans in its entirety. ** Easter Joy ** explained it better than I could. Judaism as it is practiced today (Orthodox, such as the Hasidim) is the same as that in Jesus time. Conservative and Reform Judaism can be considered the
equivalent of Anglicanism and Protestantism in Christianity.

Also, although many religions other than Judaism and Christianity claim to worship God, they are all man made religions, and therefore are false.

As for the writimgs of Polycarp and Irinaeus, I cannnot p(name removed by moderator)oint any letter in particular, for they expounded the same subject in many of their letters and other writings.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

I have tried to explain it to you the best way i could. I guess I failed to make myself clear.
Please read St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans in its entirety. ** Easter Joy ** explained it better than I could. Judaism as it is practiced today (Orthodox, such as the Hasidim) is the same as that in Jesus time. Conservative and Reform Judaism can be considered the
equivalent of Anglicanism and Protestantism in Christianity.

Also, although many religions other than Judaism and Christianity claim to worship God, they are all man made religions, and therefore are false.

As for the writimgs of Polycarp and Irinaeus, I cannnot p(name removed by moderator)oint any letter in particular, for they expounded the same subject in many of their letters and other writings.

So…Who’s their high priest? Where’s their holy of holies? Where are the animal sacrifices? Is the Talmud the inerrant word of God??? When did this emphasis on the Talmud start, and was God the source of this emphasis that is practiced by all practicing Jews today? In other words…Your contention that Jews of today practice as Jews of Christ’s time is totally false.

My main contention is that, although “the Jews” are beloved by God because of the Patriarchs, Judaism, as it is practiced today, is a false religion in the same way that any non-Catholic religion is. They do NOT practice as they did in Jesus’ time and before. Jesus fulfilled the Law, and therefore only Catholicism is a true religion.

I’m not the one who brought this up. Somebody made the claim that Judaism IS NOT a false religion, and I wanted to talk about that point. I still say it is a false religion and I don’t see any proof that it isn’t. Judaism is no longer the true religion because Catholicism is that religion. All in favor say “aye”.

 

[Magnus467]

Just my two cents worth on Vatican II. I remember that from the time I was a child (1933)
till the time of implementing the changes of Vatican II, the masses were always crowded. You had to get to church at least a half hour before mass before if you wanted a seat. The people stood along the walls, in the back and many time in the aisles. And, this was just not at one mass, this was at every mass. Depending on the parish, there would be four masses every Sunday. The 9:00 am mass was for children (teens too) and it also was crowded. And everyone dressed in their Sunday best. This was not only in cities, but in suburban communities too. At mass there was always a sense of piety. The sermons wer e always interesting and mostly concerned the salvation of your soul or a disertation on any of the Christian doctrines. When you left mass, you knew you had gone to mass. No
one was in a rush to leave. Many lingered for extra prayers.

Today, it is just the opposite. One mass, two at the most. Very few people. Majority of children and teens are sloppily dressed (parents don’t seem to care). Some of the females that come to church should be ashamed to present themselves to the Lord in their tight shorts and short mini-skirts and tubular tops without covering. There is no longer a sense of modesty or respect for the Lord. The sense of reverence is gone and the “homilies” most often are boring and political or financial in nature. Rare is the
congregation that doen’t rush to get out of church after mass leaving the feeling that “that’s over and done with, Let;s get out of here”.

Call me what you will, make whatever comments you want, but I still say Vatican II DID
NOT follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and it almost ruined the church. Archbishop Lefevbre was right in his comments, but was wrong in disobeying the Pope and breaking away. Nuff said. God Bless,

Ecumenical councils contain the highest teaching authority of the Church. To say it is not led by the HS is very disturbing. Again…which Vatican documents says wear immodest clothing to Mass? I see no logical correlation. It is society that changed drastically. I guess just blame it on the Church. So just show me a logical correlation between the documents and teaching (or whatever) made by V2 and the changes you talk about.

 

[Magnus467]

It sounds like you don’t know too much about the ins and outs of his situation so I’ll just say this: his canonization is definitely possible. He may be vindicated yet. Time will tell. There are excellent arguments in his favor despite JPII’s somewhat unclear censure.

I apologize for not being familiar with the multi-quote feature. Vindicated by what? (honest question) I may not know the ins and outs, but I don’t know any schismatic saints.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

I apologize for not being familiar with the multi-quote feature. Vindicated by what? (honest question) I may not know the ins and outs, but I don’t know any schismatic saints.

Vindicated by a pope. The whole SSPX situation is well documented, and while JPII censured him and the other bishops, BXVI lifted the excommunications of the 4 still living. What’s to say the same won’t happen for Lefebvre? JPII said he had committed an act of schism, but he never said Lefebvre was a schismatic…big difference. It’s like I said elsewhere, if I run in front of a car, you may call that a foolish act. If I run in front of a car to save a child’s life, I still commit the foolish act, but I do it for a good purpose, and just because I commit a foolish act it doesn’t make me a fool.

Also, the word from Rome these days is “there is no schism”.

 

[pnewton]

It sounds like you don’t know too much about the ins and outs of his situation so I’ll just say this: his canonization is definitely possible. He may be vindicated yet. Time will tell. There are excellent arguments in his favor despite JPII’s somewhat unclear censure.

This is true. Within the realm of possibility almost anyone could be canonized (that is in heaven, that is).

I tend to think that AB Lefebvre and Pope John Paul II (the Great ) have already resolved their differences by now.

 

[Magnus467]

Vindicated by a pope. The whole SSPX situation is well documented, and while JPII censured him and the other bishops, BXVI lifted the excommunications of the 4 still living. What’s to say the same won’t happen for Lefebvre? JPII said he had committed an act of schism, but he never said Lefebvre was a schismatic…big difference. It’s like I said elsewhere, if I run in front of a car, you may call that a foolish act. If I run in front of a car to save a child’s life, I still commit the foolish act, but I do it for a good purpose, and just because I commit a foolish act it doesn’t make me a fool.

Also, the word from Rome these days is “there is no schism”.

I see what you are saying. Thank you for the clarification. I guess I just don’t support the Traditionalist standpoint.

 

[DonLeon]

So…Who’s their high priest? Where’s their holy of holies? Where are the animal sacrifices? Is the Talmud the inerrant word of God??? When did this emphasis on the Talmud start, and was God the source of this emphasis that is practiced by all practicing Jews today? In other words…Your contention that Jews of today practice as Jews of Christ’s time is totally false.

My main contention is that, although “the Jews” are beloved by God because of the Patriarchs, Judaism, as it is practiced today, is a false religion in the same way that any non-Catholic religion is. They do NOT practice as they did in Jesus’ time and before. Jesus fulfilled the Law, and therefore only Catholicism is a true religion.

I’m not the one who brought this up. Somebody made the claim that Judaism IS NOT a false religion, and I wanted to talk about that point. I still say it is a false religion and I don’t see any proof that it isn’t. Judaism is no longer the true religion because Catholicism is that religion. All in favor say “aye”.

I have failed to make myself clear to you and/or you dont/refuse to understand. I can go no further. I am no theologian, I can only go by what I have learned and know. In your
eyes Judaism today is a false religion, and only Catholicism is true. So be it. Then what about our protestant brothers? Are they also worshiping falsely?

I would suggest you contact David Moss, c/o Association of Hebrew Catholics,
4120 W. Pine Blvd.St. Louis, MO 63108. He may be able to answer your questions better than I can. Meanwhile, keep your faith and God Bless. Shalom Chevarim.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[DonLeon]

Ecumenical councils contain the highest teaching authority of the Church. To say it is not led by the HS is very disturbing. Again…which Vatican documents says wear immodest clothing to Mass? I see no logical correlation. It is society that changed drastically. I guess just blame it on the Church. So just show me a logical correlation between the documents and teaching (or whatever) made by V2 and the changes you talk about.

My dear friend: I DID NOT say that Va II was not led by the Holy Spirit. If you re-read, I said that it seems that no on may have listened to the Holy Spirit !! Also, I DID NOT say that Va II documents caused the change in society. What I did emphasize is that after
Va II everything changed and it seemed for the worst.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[1way]

My personal observation. The Catholics that I grew up with were taught, as I was, all of the traditions and prayers and liturgy… and knew it well. All was as Lefebvre would have approved. Yet many, In fact most of my classmates had two lives. The religious form which they acted out to perfection was one part of their life. The other life was full of the world and disdain for the rigid strictures of the Church they felt forced to comply with.
I have personal friends and acquaintances deeply ensconced in the wealth and nobility of Mexico city. They openly talk about the fact that Catholicism has prevented very few from having a mistress or two … and this is not something that has just recently become common. I have an Italian friend who confirms the same activity in Italy.

My point I guess is that not much has changed. The real issue… the condition of the heart … has been been in jeopardy for a long time. The traditions were simply masking it.

World Wars 1 and 2 were foretold by the Blessed Mother at a time when Catholic tradition was the norm for all Catholics. Following the exact form of the liturgy and wearing the correct vestments did not prevent either war.

I think that Catholics are changing external things because they see that they need something that the external things have just not addressed.

 

[Magnus467]

My dear friend: I DID NOT say that Va II was not led by the Holy Spirit. If you re-read, I said that it seems that no on may have listened to the Holy Spirit !! Also, I DID NOT say that Va II documents caused the change in society. What I did emphasize is that after
Va II everything changed and it seemed for the worst.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I apologize if I misunderstood you. However, don’t you HAVE to listen to the Holy Spirit to be led by Him? If you mean something else, please clarify.

Then, what do you think caused the changes?

 

[DonLeon]

I apologize if I misunderstood you. However, don’t you HAVE to listen to the Holy Spirit to be led by Him? If you mean something else, please clarify.

Then, what do you think caused the changes?

YES, you MUST listen to the Holy Spirit. In my opinion today it seems that the Holy Spirit is ignored, no matter how loud He shouts. Right after Va II there were many clergy who left their vocation. Discipline seemed to have fallen by the wayside. Today there are many clergy, secular and religious, who do not adhere to many teachings of the church.
Anyway, these are the rattelings of an old Traditionalist. I accept some of the changes, but I still think Bishop Lefevbre was right in his reasoning but wrong in his disobedience.

As for what caused the changes… it could have been too much too soon, too radical a change from what was for 500 years, etc., all in combination with the "free love " society of
the time which has continued to this day. All this is in my opinion. Whatever the outcome, I am still a Catholic and will forever remain so in obedience to the Pope and the Magisterium ( even with all my complaining).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[DonLeon]

.

Magnus467 They do NOT practice as they did in Jesus’ time and before. Jesus fulfilled the Law, and therefore only Catholicism is a true religion.

I meant to comment on this:

Other than worshiping in the Temple at Jerusalem, since it is no longer in existence, the Jews (Orthodox) still worship as Jesus did in the Synagogues of His time, with some minor changes over time.

There is no longer a need for priests and servants of the temple since it no longer exists, but the family (named Cohen) from which the priests will be elected, is still in existence.should the temple ever be rebuilt. According to the Covenant, there can be only one temple.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CassiusLonginus]

In your eyes Judaism today is a false religion, and only Catholicism is true.

Is this not correct? Yes or No, DonLeon: Is Judaism a false religion?

Then what about our protestant brothers? Are they also worshiping falsely?

I have heard it said that Jews and Muslims worship the same God as Catholics. In that case protestants worship the same God as well, but protestantism is also a false religion, and yes, they do worship falsely because only Catholicism “worships” God in the true sense of the word.

 

[MKF]

We have been grateful to learn what Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre wrote in his Open Letter to Confused Catholics! His chapter on the New Catechisms guided us in our choices in using a good Baltimore Catechism. His book and the Encyclical Pascendi (which warns about trusting Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats!!!) taught us the distinctions to make as we had to learn the faith at the same time as teaching it to our (now) eight children!

Mary Fifer
www.Roman-Catholic-Catechism.com/