Legal problems that may arise if abortion is considered murder?

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Let’s say that abortion becomes not only illegal but defined as murder, be that in any country. I also want to clarify as by experience on CAF I have to - I am pro-life. I can ask questions and still be pro-life. Anyway…

It’s been mentioned before (I have mentioned it before too) but does the pro-life campaign have any answers to what would happen to pregnant women if it becomes illegal?

So let’s say you’re pregnant and an unborn baby has been defined by law to have the same rights as a born person (so that abortion is legally defined as murder). Does that mean that a pregnant mother can be fined and prosecuted for doing something which could harm the baby? Would the state end up policing her pregnancy? This maybe sounds a bit crazy, but think about the following things which are could harm a baby in the womb -
  • Smoking
  • Alcohol
  • Drugs
  • Obesity
  • Reckless behaviour - e.g. going bungee-jumping or weight-lifting while pregnant.
  • Eating certain foods/taking certain medication
So let’s say a woman had a miscarriage. Would that have to be investigated by the state to make sure it wasn’t an abortion? Could she be charged if she was found to have a history of alcoholism and had high levels of alcohol in her blood, for example?

Just wondering what people’s thoughts are regarding this, and whether there has been a lot of discussion about it on the pro-life scene.

Note: This is specifically asking about the effects of making abortion murder, assuming that this means an unborn baby has the same right to life all people have in that country. Abortion can be illegal without this happening, but a lot of pro-life people are campaigning for abortion to be classed as murder too.
 
LemonAndLime said:
Let’s say that abortion becomes not only illegal but defined as murder, be that in any country. I also want to clarify as by experience on CAF I have to - I am pro-life. I can ask questions and still be pro-life. Anyway…

It’s been mentioned before (I have mentioned it before too) but does the pro-life campaign have any answers to what would happen to pregnant women if it becomes illegal?

So let’s say you’re pregnant and an unborn baby has been defined by law to have the same rights as a born person (so that abortion is legally defined as murder). Does that mean that a pregnant mother can be fined and prosecuted for doing something which could harm the baby? Would the state end up policing her pregnancy? This maybe sounds a bit crazy, but think about the following things which are could harm a baby in the womb -
  • Smoking
  • Alcohol
  • Drugs
  • Obesity
  • Reckless behaviour - e.g. going bungee-jumping or weight-lifting while pregnant.
  • Eating certain foods/taking certain medication
So let’s say a woman had a miscarriage. Would that have to be investigated by the state to make sure it wasn’t an abortion? Could she be charged if she was found to have a history of alcoholism and had high levels of alcohol in her blood, for example?

Just wondering what people’s thoughts are regarding this, and whether there has been a lot of discussion about it on the pro-life scene.

Note: This is specifically asking about the effects of making abortion murder, assuming that this means an unborn baby has the same right to life all people have in that country. Abortion can be illegal without this happening, but a lot of pro-life people are campaigning for abortion to be classed as murder too.
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Manslaughter, not murder. Two different legal concepts.
 
LemonAndLime said:
Let’s say that abortion becomes not only illegal but defined as murder, be that in any country. I also want to clarify as by experience on CAF I have to - I am pro-life. I can ask questions and still be pro-life. Anyway…

It’s been mentioned before (I have mentioned it before too) but does the pro-life campaign have any answers to what would happen to pregnant women if it becomes illegal?

So let’s say you’re pregnant and an unborn baby has been defined by law to have the same rights as a born person (so that abortion is legally defined as murder). Does that mean that a pregnant mother can be fined and prosecuted for doing something which could harm the baby? Would the state end up policing her pregnancy? This maybe sounds a bit crazy, but think about the following things which are could harm a baby in the womb -
  • Smoking
  • Alcohol
  • Drugs
  • Obesity
  • Reckless behaviour - e.g. going bungee-jumping or weight-lifting while pregnant.
  • Eating certain foods/taking certain medication
So let’s say a woman had a miscarriage. Would that have to be investigated by the state to make sure it wasn’t an abortion? Could she be charged if she was found to have a history of alcoholism and had high levels of alcohol in her blood, for example?

Just wondering what people’s thoughts are regarding this, and whether there has been a lot of discussion about it on the pro-life scene.

Note: This is specifically asking about the effects of making abortion murder, assuming that this means an unborn baby has the same right to life all people have in that country. Abortion can be illegal without this happening, but a lot of pro-life people are campaigning for abortion to be classed as murder too.
Click to expand...
Well I believe parents are afforded the rights, at least in some states, to determine if their children should be provided alcohol, tobacco, etc as opposed to the state. For example, VA allows parents to serve alcohol to their children if they so choose. That being said, there can still be cases of negligent parenting, which is where I think most of these cases would fall. Likely, they would receive fines, mandatory counseling, etc. Police wouldn’t really ‘police’ the pregnancy, but rather if it was reported that someone was abusing this, or they were arrested for illegal activity and were pregnant, etc.

Now, when it comes to miscarriages, I do not think investigations would occur. The crime would focus on the procedure of abortion, not necessarily on the death of a child. Therefore, not every fetus who is stillborn or dies in the womb would require an investigation. Rather, if someone were found to have performed or received an abortion, that would be a criminal offense.

The really interesting point for me is the abortifacient drug RU-486. Though the new ‘medical’ definition is that pregnancy doesn’t begin until ‘implantation’, many of us know that the human being is formed at conception. So, assuming the definition stays the same on pregnancy, the drug will presumably still be made available (and likely used more). However, if the definition changes, that means the drug could be pulled entirely from the market, which would be a major victory for the pro-life movement.
 
There would be lots of legal ramifications, but it would depend on the situation. Take smoking for example.

Smoking can be harmful to a fetus, but it is also harmful to smoke around a 4-year old. That doesn’t make it illegal. Every case would have to be looked at separately. You’d have to take into account the law AND a persons right to parent the way they wish (within legal limits). It’s illegal to kill your child, but not smoke around them. It’s legal to drink around your child, but not to the point of negligence. If birth defects occurred and they could be linked to inappropriate drinking while pregnant, there may be legal action. However in Europe it is perfectly normal for a pregnant woman to have a glass of wine with dinner…so that’s fine.

It would have to be case-by-case.
 
I was just thinking about this the other day. Certainly outlawing abortion could bring about a slippery slope effect that wouldn’t be beneficial to the women in society
 
You forget that abortion was illegal in the past, without the legal slippery slope occurring.

I imagine that laws would be passed to exclude pregnant women from bungee jumping, etc. Compared to the evil that is abortion, such limitations would not be particularly morally troublesome. IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
You forget that abortion was illegal in the past, without the legal slippery slope occurring.
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You forget to read my post? 😛 I mentioned that in my OP.

A lot of pro-life people not only want abortion to be illegal, but to be classed as murder. Hence why I started this thread.
I imagine that laws would be passed to exclude pregnant women from bungee jumping, etc. Compared to the evil that is abortion, such limitations would not be particularly morally troublesome. IMNAAHO.
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ICXC NIKA
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But what about proving that bungee jumping etc DID cause a miscarriage?
 
LemonAndLime said:
But what about proving that bungee jumping etc DID cause a miscarriage?
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I don’t think you can prove that, but I bet there is an age-requirement to bungee jumping. Being 5 months old in the womb probably isn’t covered on the waiver. 🙂 I see some places require you to be at least 14…so yeah. If the unborn were given rights, a pregnant woman couldn’t do this. It would probably be a good idea…
 
In fairness, if abortion were made illegal, it would not need to be made illegal as murder or manslaughter. It could be its own thing entirely.

And it could be done so without declaring the unborn to have the same rights as the born. That particular position seems somewhat untenable for the reasons listed in the first post, anyway-establishing that the unborn have the right to not be aborted would pretty much be all that is necessary.
 
Interesting speculation, but not reflecting how it ever was in the past and not reflecting those vestiges of “rights of the unborn” still in existence.

Back before Roe, women were not prosecuted for having abortions. Abortionists were.

Right now, if a third party deliberately or wantonly causes fetal death, he/she can, indeed be charged with murder or manslaughter of the child, at least in some jurisdictions. And some have been.

A woman can, in some jurisdictions, be prosecuted for harming her unborn child by using illegal drugs.
 
I sincerely hope that when abortion and contraception are illegal you make room in prisons for all not only the entire Planned Parenthood Federation but the millions who will profit off black market abortions.

Not only that you are going to have to make room in already overcrowded prisons for not only the woman, but the doctor, then Anesthesiologist, the surgical technicians, the nurses, the desk worker, the cops who protected abortion clinics, the vigilante who killed the illegal abortionist, the confused teenager, the priest who gave confession to the woman who had the abortion and then was forced by a material witness order to testify against the woman who had the abortion only he refused and then ended up in prison, the pro-choice protestor since they have to be involved somehow, we might as well throw in the janitor of the abortion doctor because they are guilty as an accomplice. See where I am heading with this? :rolleyes:

You see where all this will lead? Making abortion illegal will drive it underground and make it more dangerous for women.

Are you willing to fund a national network of pregnancy crisis centers to prevent black market abortions? Are you willing to build and expand prisons to accommodate all these criminals.

Are you willing to spend billions of dollars to do all this? 🤷
 
mitex said:
I sincerely hope that when abortion and contraception are illegal you make room in prisons for all not only the entire Planned Parenthood Federation but the millions who will profit off black market abortions.

Not only that you are going to have to make room in already overcrowded prisons for not only the woman, but the doctor, then Anesthesiologist, the surgical technicians, the nurses, the desk worker, the cops who protected abortion clinics, the vigilante who killed the illegal abortionist, the confused teenager, the priest who gave confession to the woman who had the abortion and then was forced by a material witness order to testify against the woman who had the abortion only he refused and then ended up in prison, the pro-choice protestor since they have to be involved somehow, we might as well throw in the janitor of the abortion doctor because they are guilty as an accomplice. See where I am heading with this? :rolleyes:

You see where all this will lead? Making abortion illegal will drive it underground and make it more dangerous for women.

Are you willing to fund a national network of pregnancy crisis centers to prevent black market abortions? Are you willing to build and expand prisons to accommodate all these criminals.

Are you willing to spend billions of dollars to do all this? 🤷
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Yes.
 
LemonAndLime said:
Let’s say that abortion becomes not only illegal but defined as murder, be that in any country. I also want to clarify as by experience on CAF I have to - I am pro-life. I can ask questions and still be pro-life. Anyway…

It’s been mentioned before (I have mentioned it before too) but does the pro-life campaign have any answers to what would happen to pregnant women if it becomes illegal?

So let’s say you’re pregnant and an unborn baby has been defined by law to have the same rights as a born person (so that abortion is legally defined as murder). Does that mean that a pregnant mother can be fined and prosecuted for doing something which could harm the baby? Would the state end up policing her pregnancy? This maybe sounds a bit crazy, but think about the following things which are could harm a baby in the womb -
  • Smoking
  • Alcohol
  • Drugs
  • Obesity
  • Reckless behaviour - e.g. going bungee-jumping or weight-lifting while pregnant.
  • Eating certain foods/taking certain medication
So let’s say a woman had a miscarriage. Would that have to be investigated by the state to make sure it wasn’t an abortion? Could she be charged if she was found to have a history of alcoholism and had high levels of alcohol in her blood, for example?
Click to expand...
It wouldn’t be any worse than a parent who gets drunk and accidentally leaves a door open for the children to get outside, and then they get hit by a car or something - or the situation where someone accidentally leaves their child in the car during extreme weather. It would be considered an accidental death. But yes, I assume it would be investigated to make sure that nothing was done on purpose, the same as those kinds of accidents.
Just wondering what people’s thoughts are regarding this, and whether there has been a lot of discussion about it on the pro-life scene.
Click to expand...
Note: This is specifically asking about the effects of making abortion murder, assuming that this means an unborn baby has the same right to life all people have in that country. Abortion can be illegal without this happening, but a lot of pro-life people are campaigning for abortion to be classed as murder too.
Click to expand...
If you kill a born child, it is considered murder, and yet the police are not hanging around every house with children in it to spy and make sure the parents are doing everything possible to keep the children safe.

Accidents are not murder. It’s only when the parent kills the child on purpose that they get arrested and put in jail - as far as I know, people can smoke and drink around their six year olds and not get arrested, even though the child could be accidentally harmed by these things.
 
mitex said:
I sincerely hope that when abortion and contraception are illegal you make room in prisons for all not only the entire Planned Parenthood Federation but the millions who will profit off black market abortions.

Not only that you are going to have to make room in already overcrowded prisons for not only the woman, but the doctor, then Anesthesiologist, the surgical technicians, the nurses, the desk worker, the cops who protected abortion clinics, the vigilante who killed the illegal abortionist, the confused teenager, the priest who gave confession to the woman who had the abortion and then was forced by a material witness order to testify against the woman who had the abortion only he refused and then ended up in prison, the pro-choice protestor since they have to be involved somehow, we might as well throw in the janitor of the abortion doctor because they are guilty as an accomplice. See where I am heading with this? :rolleyes:

You see where all this will lead? Making abortion illegal will drive it underground and make it more dangerous for women.

Are you willing to fund a national network of pregnancy crisis centers to prevent black market abortions? Are you willing to build and expand prisons to accommodate all these criminals.

Are you willing to spend billions of dollars to do all this? 🤷
Click to expand...
A more likely scenario would be that people would simply stop having sex in situations where a pregnancy would not be desirable, so as to avoid the whole situation.

Prior to 1973, there were very few actual “black market abortions.” - most people put their unwanted children up for adoption, or farmed them out to relatives. More people also waited for marriage before having sex - there were not that many unwanted children being conceived, in the first place.
 
jmcrae said:
A more likely scenario would be that people would simply stop having sex in situations where a pregnancy would not be desirable, so as to avoid the whole situation.

Prior to 1973, there were very few actual “black market abortions.” - most people put their unwanted children up for adoption, or farmed them out to relatives. More people also waited for marriage before having sex - there were not that many unwanted children being conceived, in the first place.
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WOW!!! You mean people actually practiced (gasp!) self control back then!!!

Amazing, when you consider that everybody seems to think the current generation can’t!!!

ICXC NIKA.
 
jmcrae said:
A more likely scenario would be that people would simply stop having sex in situations where a pregnancy would not be desirable, so as to avoid the whole situation.

Prior to 1973, there were very few actual “black market abortions.” - most people put their unwanted children up for adoption, or farmed them out to relatives. More people also waited for marriage before having sex - there were not that many unwanted children being conceived, in the first place.
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If you honestly believe that no one was having sex in the early 70’s that then you are quite naive. Hippies, gay liberation, beatniks, counter culture, free love, Need I go on? :rolleyes:
 
mitex said:
If you honestly believe that no one was having sex in the early 70’s that then you are quite naive. Hippies, gay liberation, beatniks, counter culture, free love, Need I go on? :rolleyes:
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I was there - I know what was going on. When my best friend got pregnant in high school, she took a semester off, had the baby, put him up for adoption, and graduated six months later than the rest of us. She joined University with the group of us who took an interim year to “find ourselves” and by second year, nobody knew the difference - she was all caught up and fretting over the same exams and the same summer job situations as the rest of us.

That’s what most girls did, back then. As far as I know, her boy did just fine, too.
 
jmcrae said:
I was there - I know what was going on. When my best friend got pregnant in high school, she took a semester off, had the baby, put him up for adoption, and graduated six months later than the rest of us. She joined University with the group of us who took an interim year to “find ourselves” and by second year, nobody knew the difference - she was all caught up and fretting over the same exams and the same summer job situations as the rest of us.

That’s what most girls did, back then. As far as I know, her boy did just fine, too.
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Wait! You mean there are alternatives to aborting children? And that people used to actually engage in these alternatives? :eek:
 
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