Legalize Sodomy?

[Vitus]

The Barrister:

All legitimate laws are based upon the natural (God’s) law. It has nothing to do with “religion,” which is how we worship God, and everything to do with morality, which is how we conform our conduct to God’s laws.

Unfortunately, history has not been kind to the distinction, and most other people (apparently including you) cannot see the difference.

If you are defining natural law by way of religous means, then the two are not mutually exclusive. See your logic post.

Morality does exist outside of religious constructs. So if you are defining natural law in another way, please profide that definition.

 

[Brad]

Vitus:

There is no evidence that homosexuality is a mental illness. In fact, it has been removed from the DSM because science knows better now. It can not be corrected as it is not an illness. Anyone who thinks they’ve been “cured” of homosexuality is simply fooling themselves.

So you are in favor of the government making laws purely on religous grounds?

As I stated previously, all of our laws are grounded in morality and all morality stems from religious foundations. Again, as a result, there is an inseperable line between politics and religion. The reason laws exist is to prevent a person or group from doing a moral wrong that will adversely affect another person or group.

There is plenty of evidence that homosexuality is a disorder if you are willing to do the research. It is called reparative thereapy - reparative therapy corrects the reparative drive that a homosexual undertakes to correct something that is missing as a result of a development disorder. Under reparative thereapy, 1/3 are completely healed, 1/3 are much improved, and 1/3 show no improvement, just like any other mental disorder. The reparative drive is very strong as the homosexual is struggling (in the male case) to find and control his masculinity - often resulting in trying to find acceptance from other men and acting out on this drive sexually. There is much more - I recommend Dr. Joseph Nicolosi’s work and therapy and the organization Courage.

In addition, the 2 doctors that were the leaders in removing homosexuality from the list of APAs mental disorders have both retracted their positions and now say homosexuality can be cured.

See the Truth - God Bless.

 

[Ken]

The Barrister:

Logics lesson of the day. If all of set B is included within set A, it does not follow that all of set A is included within set B.

Good. Glad they all don’t have such interests. What percentage of the followers of Christ would you estimate is interested in what other people do in their bedroom?

 

[Ken]

Brad:

As I stated previously, all of our laws are grounded in morality and all morality stems from religious foundations. Again, as a result, there is an inseperable line between politics and religion. The reason laws exist is to prevent a person or group from doing a moral wrong that will adversely affect another person or group.

There is plenty of evidence that homosexuality is a disorder if you are willing to do the research. It is called reparative thereapy - reparative therapy corrects the reparative drive that a homosexual undertakes to correct something that is missing as a result of a development disorder. Under reparative thereapy, 1/3 are completely healed, 1/3 are much improved, and 1/3 show no improvement, just like any other mental disorder. The reparative drive is very strong as the homosexual is struggling (in the male case) to find and control his masculinity - often resulting in trying to find acceptance from other men and acting out on this drive sexually. There is much more - I recommend Dr. Joseph Nicolosi’s work and therapy and the organization Courage.

In addition, the 2 doctors that were the leaders in removing homosexuality from the list of APAs mental disorders have both retracted their positions and now say homosexuality can be cured.

See the Truth - God Bless.

What’s an example of a law based on religious morality?

 

[Auberon_Quin]

Ken:

What’s an example of a law based on religious morality?

It’s illegal in my state to impersonate a Knight of Columbus. Does that help?

It’s also illegal to impersonate a Mason, though. So maybe it doesn’t help.

Carry on.

 

[Brad]

Ken:

What’s an example of a law based on religious morality?

Every single one. I would ask you to name a single law that is not based on religious morality. But for starters, there are laws against assault and murder which is based on commandment #5. There are laws against stealing, based on commandment #7. There are innumerable laws against loud noise at night, trespassing, defaming someone’s name etc, which are all based on the golden rule, a variation of which exists in many different religions. Laws protecting children from sexual misconduct all have their basis in religious teachings.

This, of course, is not to say that most of these laws have scientifically verifiable evidence proving the harm that they inflict.

If you are suggesting that our morality does not come from religious sources, I would ask from what authrority do we get our morality?

 

[The_Barrister]

Vitus:

If you are defining natural law by way of religous means, then the two are not mutually exclusive. See your logic post.

Morality does exist outside of religious constructs. So if you are defining natural law in another way, please profide that definition.

Read my post again. It will come to you.

 

[Vitus]

Brad:

As I stated previously, all of our laws are grounded in morality and all morality stems from religious foundations. Again, as a result, there is an inseperable line between politics and religion. The reason laws exist is to prevent a person or group from doing a moral wrong that will adversely affect another person or group.

I do not agree with the first statement. One can have morals in the absence of religion. The line can between the two can be blurred, but they are most certainly not inseperable.

There is plenty of evidence that homosexuality is a disorder if you are willing to do the research.

I have, and there is no credible evidence.

It is called reparative thereapy - reparative therapy corrects the reparative drive that a homosexual undertakes to correct something that is missing as a result of a development disorder. Under reparative thereapy, 1/3 are completely healed, 1/3 are much improved, and 1/3 show no improvement, just like any other mental disorder. The reparative drive is very strong as the homosexual is struggling (in the male case) to find and control his masculinity - often resulting in trying to find acceptance from other men and acting out on this drive sexually. There is much more - I recommend Dr. Joseph Nicolosi’s work and therapy and the organization Courage.

I know of Nicolosi’s work and organizations such as NARTH and EXODUS. So does the APA: psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_changing.html

In addition, the 2 doctors that were the leaders in removing homosexuality from the list of APAs mental disorders have both retracted their positions and now say homosexuality can be cured.

Cite please.

 

[Southernrich]

Brad:

Every single one.

Oh? Seat belt laws? No Parking from 10 p.m. until 6 a.m.? Separate your garbage?

 

[Brad]

Vitus:

I do not agree with the first statement. One can have morals in the absence of religion. The line can between the two can be blurred, but they are most certainly not inseperable.

.

From what authority does “one” get his/her morals if not from a relgious foundation? There must be a moral authority from which to derive these morals. They must be a basis on which something is decided as wrong - otherwise it is my word against yours.

 

[Brad]

Southernrich:

Oh? Seat belt laws? No Parking from 10 p.m. until 6 a.m.? Separate your garbage?

Look, I’m not saying I agree with every single law - especially those that take God out of public places. However, my premise that all laws are based on morality is still correct. The reason the law is made it to prevent what one considers a “wrong” from being done - a “wrong” is an immorality, unless a corrupt government is enacting a law just to make money - but that is an entirely separate issue and certainly wasn’t the case with sodomy.

Seat Belt Law - enacted to prevent someone from harming himself or his passengers by not requiring them to put on their seat belt. The driver is also responsible for the passenger in many cases. Also, to prevent harm to other occupants of the vehicle in the event that your flying body causing damage to them.

No Parking - enacted so that workers can perform their jobs, keeping the community safe and clean. If this law is violated, you are doing a potential harm to the community.

Garbage seperation - done to protect the environment. If this law is violated, you are doing potential harm to the environment causing a whole host of possible problems to individuals and animals.

 

[Vitus]

Brad:

From what authority does “one” get his/her morals if not from a relgious foundation? There must be a moral authority from which to derive these morals. They must be a basis on which something is decided as wrong - otherwise it is my word against yours.

I do not know where everyone else dervies their morals. I don’t know everyone and frankly, it is not my business. I can only speak for myself. But I do know many athiests who show more morality and compassion than 90% of the Christians I’ve come in contact with. Now I may claim that is the Lord working through them in some way, shape or form, they would certainly deny that their actions are based on any kind of religion.

And unless you can verify that all laws are BASED on religous laws, and not simply related in some form, I dispute your claim. For example; OSHA, DOT, EPA and NRA laws certianly aren’t religious in nature.

 

[Vitus]

The Barrister:

Read my post again. It will come to you.

Why don’t you just explain it to me like I requested, just so I don’t infer something you didn’t want inferred.

 

[fix]

Southernrich:

Protection of the law from what? Having to perform acts of sodomy?

Sodomy goes against the natural order. Preventing, if possible, helps society. Diease, alone, should be reason enough to stop that behavior.

 

[The_Barrister]

Brad:

From what authority does “one” get his/her morals if not from a relgious foundation? There must be a moral authority from which to derive these morals. They must be a basis on which something is decided as wrong - otherwise it is my word against yours.

This is a matter of semantics, but one worth noting. These are not strictly definitions per se, but help to differentiate the meanings (and it would be great if we’re all speaking the same language, using the same terms, so we’re not misunderstood).

“Faith” as used here usually denotes one’s belief in God. “Religion” is usually the accumulated dogmas and doctrines and constitutes how one worships God. “Morals” are derived from the natural law. The three often go hand-in-hand as they do in the Catholic faith, but each exists independently of the other. God’s laws exist in the natural law, whether or not one chooses to believe in God or worship Him, and they apply to believers and non-believers alike.

 

[Vitus]

fix:

Sodomy goes against the natural order. Preventing, if possible, helps society. Diease, alone, should be reason enough to stop that behavior.

1.) You still have yet to define “natural” order.

2.) How does a government making illegal private actions by private individuals help society?

3.) What disease would that be?

 

[Brad]

Vitus:

.

I know of Nicolosi’s work and organizations such as NARTH and EXODUS. So does the APA: psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_changing.html

Cite please.

I will find the citations. I don’t have them readily available. I read the article and unfortunately - it was not written by the APA and it contains some outrageous claims, such as electronic shock treatment. This paints Nicolosi’s work in a completely false light. I would suggest getting the research from his work rather than someone with an incentive to condemn everyone trying to do this therapy. These people genuinely care. Seek the Truth.

 

[fix]

Vitus:

Tell me fix, would you have yelled at Jesus for sitting with the tax collectors and prostitutes, or would you have just mumbles to yourself about Jesus’ actions?

Huh? What is your point? Are you saying because Jesus eat with sinners to call them to conversion that we have to accept the gay agenda? Funny, but that is Kumbaya Theology 101.

There is no evidence that homosexuality is a mental illness. In fact, it has been removed from the DSM because science knows better now. It can not be corrected as it is not an illness. Anyone who thinks they’ve been “cured” of homosexuality is simply fooling themselves.

Psychology is full of pagans and homosexualists. They approve of every sin and call it normal. They are a political group in many ways. There are psychologists who accept that it is a disorder and try to help these folks. Not every case can return to heterosexuality, but the party line that it is impossible is pure propaganda.

Please provide to me where Jesus said we should judge other’s actions. Before you go looking, you might want to get the planck out of your eye so you can see better. And after that, please be the first to cast the first stone.

By their fruit you shall know them! That is not a call to judge, then I do not know what is.

So you are in favor of the government making laws purely on religous grounds?

 

[Brad]

The Barrister:

This is a matter of semantics, but one worth noting. These are not strictly definitions per se, but help to differentiate the meanings (and it would be great if we’re all speaking the same language, using the same terms, so we’re not misunderstood).

“Faith” as used here usually denotes one’s belief in God. “Religion” is usually the accumulated dogmas and doctrines and constitutes how one worships God. “Morals” are derived from the natural law. The three often go hand-in-hand as they do in the Catholic faith, but each exists independently of the other. God’s laws exist in the natural law, whether or not one chooses to believe in God or worship Him, and they apply to believers and non-believers alike.

I understand this but for the purpose of simplicity, I have been using religion and God’s laws to be the same. The bottom line is political laws are based on a higher and objective authority.

 

[Vitus]

Brad:

I read the article and unfortunately - it was not written by the APA…

Fine, than read this one:
apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html