Legalize Sodomy?

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Southernrich:
No.

Not legalizing it, decriminalizing it.

You assume wrong. There’s a difference between abortion, which is murder, and oral or anal sex, which aren’t.

You can argue the issue all you like, but I assure you that homosexual practices, now that the Supreme Court has ruled, will never be re-criminalized in America.
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I am sure you are correct. We are a degenerate generation. Sodomy is one of a handful of sins mentioned in Scripture that cry out to heaven for justice. I take my cue from Christ, not the American public or our appointed judges.
 
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Brad:
Don’t know of too many societies without any religious systems. Even “pagan” societies and those that believe in multiple deities had systems of beliefs that were foundations for what was acceptable or not.

Irregardless, I was referring more specifically to America.
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I agree that most societies have religions. Some of those religions do condemn murder. Other religions do not specifically set out particular standards and it is left to the society to outlaw murder.
 
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Brad:
Don’t know of too many societies without any religious systems. Even “pagan” societies and those that believe in multiple deities had systems of beliefs that were foundations for what was acceptable or not.

Irregardless, I was referring more specifically to America.
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Were the Europeans first introduced to the idea of outlawing murder when they learned about the fifth commandment?
 
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Southernrich:
I believe that homosexual practices are immoral and constitute mortal sins. But, I see no reason to criminalize such practices.

And I salute the Supremes for decriminalizing it as they did.

We can still preach against it, encourage homosexuals to remain chaste, and show our disapproval of the lifestyle. But, we can’t lock them up for it, and IMO, that’s to the good.
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Wasn’t it once a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday. Was there a push to make that law?
 
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Ken:
Wasn’t it once a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday. Was there a push to make that law?
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Not eating meat is a disciplinary measure that was put into place because not enough Christians were realizing the benefit of fasting. It has nothing to do with morality. To imply that we would push to make this a law is a ridiculous claim without basis.

Again, murder is but one example that you seem to want to focus on. But, if you want to talk about Europe, yes, the foundation of their legal systems is also Judeo-Christian law.

I will ask you the same quesion as I posed above. If the majority decided that slavery is ok, would it be ok - would we change our laws to allow slavery? Truth is objective and the founding fathers of this country realized this when they based our laws on Judeo-Christian law. Humans are not smarter than the Word of God and the founding fathers were smart enought to realize that.

Every time a law is created, the legislators are making a moral judgement about what is right and what is wrong. Therefore they are legislating morality.

As I have already argued, religous systems help to define what is moral and what is immoral and everyone’s concept of right and wrong is influenced by religion either directly or indirectly.

The argument that politics and religious beliefs are compeletely separate is a silly argument held by those that are either atheists, agnostics, or belong to a faith but prefer money, power, or sex over God’s love and God’s laws. I have no interest in having any in these 3 groups running my country. As they decide what is right or wrong depending on their mood of the day, they will not have the interests of their neighbor in mind as their self-interests will have a much greater pull to them than the interests of others (I am not saying everyone in these 3 groups would neglect their neighbor, but a group as a whole that puts moral beliefs secondary is narcissistic).
 
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Brad:
Not eating meat is a disciplinary measure that was put into place because not enough Christians were realizing the benefit of fasting. It has nothing to do with morality. To imply that we would push to make this a law is a ridiculous claim without basis.

Again, murder is but one example that you seem to want to focus on. But, if you want to talk about Europe, yes, the foundation of their legal systems is also Judeo-Christian law.

I will ask you the same quesion as I posed above. If the majority decided that slavery is ok, would it be ok - would we change our laws to allow slavery? Truth is objective and the founding fathers of this country realized this when they based our laws on Judeo-Christian law. Humans are not smarter than the Word of God and the founding fathers were smart enought to realize that.

Every time a law is created, the legislators are making a moral judgement about what is right and what is wrong. Therefore they are legislating morality.

As I have already argued, religous systems help to define what is moral and what is immoral and everyone’s concept of right and wrong is influenced by religion either directly or indirectly.

The argument that politics and religious beliefs are compeletely separate is a silly argument held by those that are either atheists, agnostics, or belong to a faith but prefer money, power, or sex over God’s love and God’s laws. I have no interest in having any in these 3 groups running my country. As they decide what is right or wrong depending on their mood of the day, they will not have the interests of their neighbor in mind as their self-interests will have a much greater pull to them than the interests of others (I am not saying everyone in these 3 groups would neglect their neighbor, but a group as a whole that puts moral beliefs secondary is narcissistic).
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Does this mean the Europeans were or were not first introduced introduced to the idea of outlawing murder when they learned about the fifth commandment?

If they already had that idea, then the European tradition of outlawing murder is not based on the fifth commandment.
 
Without being any kind of an expert on the question of morality and law, I will offer my current thoughts.
Morality and law overlap each other extensively, but in my view this is not nor is it intended that these are always the same thing.
The Church teaches morality to those who accept its authority. In an authoritarian state, the state lays down the law based on the opinions of those in control of it. In a democratic system law is intended to be the result of consensus among its members, modified by certain rights that individuals retain as individuals.
 
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PilgrimJWT:
Without being any kind of an expert on the question of morality and law, I will offer my current thoughts.
Morality and law overlap each other extensively, but in my view this is not nor is it intended that these are always the same thing.
The Church teaches morality to those who accept its authority. In an authoritarian state, the state lays down the law based on the opinions of those in control of it. In a democratic system law is intended to be the result of consensus among its members, modified by certain rights that individuals retain as individuals.
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Really? I mean no ill will, but this analysis is far off the mark. Example: So gay marriage in Massachusetts was " the result of consensus among its members, modified by certain rights that individuals retain as individuals"?

I recommend reading the letters of St. Thomas More for greater insight into governance.

So where does the actual authority come from by which the state is granted the right to enact laws over the people?

Read John 19:10-11:

So Pilate said to him, “Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?”

Jesus answered (him), “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above.”
 
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Ken:
Does this mean the Europeans were or were not first introduced introduced to the idea of outlawing murder when they learned about the fifth commandment?

If they already had that idea, then the European tradition of outlawing murder is not based on the fifth commandment.
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You are associating the effect with the wrong cause.

Natural law existed before the Jews came into this world, and most (if not all) societies recognized that murder was wrong and against the natural law (see, e.g., Cain v. Able, 1 Supreme Court of Eden 1).

The chosen people were somewhat haphazard in keeping to it, but were not ignorant of it. So God “codified” it for them by handing it down to Moses. That law did not come into being when the tablets were inscribed, but had existed since the creation.

Other nations were certainly aware of the natural law before God had to personally intervene and hold their nose down to the page. Therefore, it should surprise no one - and is certainly not a fact in support of the point you’re trying to make - that other nations outlawed murder. This is pretty basic Catholic theology.
 
Auberon Quin:
The US Supreme Court held this year that homosexual sodomy is not criminal conduct.

High time, too. What two people do in the privacy of their bedroom is no business of the state, as long as (a) both consent, (b) both are over-age, and (c) nobody is harmed.
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What’s your definition of what’s harmful to someone, and what is not?

Don
 
Archbishop 10-K:
To illegalize it if it’s currently legal, though, would probably not be a good idea for a secular country such as America. It’s definitely important to remember that America is not a Catholic country.

A good question might be why sodomy was illegal in the U.S. in the first place.
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If the early Church took the attitude you have taken, no missionaries would have ever been sent to far away lands to change their hearts and minds of others who believed in something false.

Sodomy was illegal because it was immoral, like murder, stealing, incest, polygamy, lying under oath, etc…it degrades human dignity which leads to base human conduct. If left unchecked it proliferates to what has resulted in what we witness today in the form of the spread of AIDS and gross aberrant behavior. That’s why it was illegal. Our ancestors had foresight, and an insight to human nature that there seems to be a severe lack of today. There’s no time like now to reverse the trend before it gets even worse. Oh, and yes, it can get worse lest you think it can’t.

A better question is why was it ever made legal?

Leadership resides in those who lead, not in those who falter at the possibility of rocking the boat. Jeus came to lead us to heaven, not coddle us to perdition.

Don
 
Archbishop 10-K:
To illegalize it if it’s currently legal, though, would probably not be a good idea for a secular country such as America. It’s definitely important to remember that America is not a Catholic country.

A good question might be why sodomy was illegal in the U.S. in the first place.
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If the early Church took the attitude you have taken, no missionaries would have ever been sent to far away lands to change their hearts and minds of others who believed in something false.

Sodomy was illegal because it was immoral, like murder, stealing, incest, polygamy, lying under oath, etc…it degrades human dignity which leads to base human conduct. If left unchecked it proliferates to what has resulted in what we witness today in the form of the spread of AIDS and gross aberrant behavior. That’s why it was illegal. Our ancestors had foresight, and an insight to human nature that there seems to be a severe lack of today. There’s no time like now to reverse the trend before it gets even worse. Oh, and yes, it can get worse lest you think it can’t.

A better question is why was it ever made legal?

Leadership resides in those who lead, not in those who falter at the possibility of rocking the boat. Jeus came to lead us to heaven, not coddle us to perdition.

Don
 
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OseeMe:
If the early Church took the attitude you have taken, no missionaries would have ever been sent to far away lands to change their hearts and minds of others who believed in something false.

Sodomy was illegal because it was immoral, like murder, stealing, incest, polygamy, lying under oath, etc…it degrades human dignity which leads to base human conduct. If left unchecked it proliferates to what has resulted in what we witness today in the form of the spread of AIDS and gross aberrant behavior. That’s why it was illegal. Our ancestors had foresight, and an insight to human nature that there seems to be a severe lack of today. There’s no time like now to reverse the trend before it gets even worse. Oh, and yes, it can get worse lest you think it can’t.

A better question is why was it ever made legal?

Leadership resides in those who lead, not in those who falter at the possibility of rocking the boat. Jeus came to lead us to heaven, not coddle us to perdition.

Don
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Good analysis. 👍 The usual suspects trolling in this thread won’t agree, of course.
 
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Ken:
Does this mean the Europeans were or were not first introduced introduced to the idea of outlawing murder when they learned about the fifth commandment?

If they already had that idea, then the European tradition of outlawing murder is not based on the fifth commandment.
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European traditon of outlawing murder is based on God’s law.
The 5th commandment is based on God’s law.

The countries that make up Europe today did know about the 5th commandment when they established their legal systems.

However, that’s the last answer of this one question game that I will play until you answer my 1 question:

If the majority decided that slavery is ok because it would provide financial benefit to them, would it be ok? Should we then change our laws to allow slavery?
 
The Barrister:
You are associating the effect with the wrong cause.

Natural law existed before the Jews came into this world, and most (if not all) societies recognized that murder was wrong and against the natural law (see, e.g., Cain v. Able, 1 Supreme Court of Eden 1).

The chosen people were somewhat haphazard in keeping to it, but were not ignorant of it. So God “codified” it for them by handing it down to Moses. That law did not come into being when the tablets were inscribed, but had existed since the creation.

Other nations were certainly aware of the natural law before God had to personally intervene and hold their nose down to the page. Therefore, it should surprise no one - and is certainly not a fact in support of the point you’re trying to make - that other nations outlawed murder. This is pretty basic Catholic theology.
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OK. That means our law against murder is not derived from the Ten Commandments, Christianity, or religion.
 
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Brad:
European traditon of outlawing murder is based on God’s law.
The 5th commandment is based on God’s law.

The countries that make up Europe today did know about the 5th commandment when they established their legal systems.

However, that’s the last answer of this one question game that I will play until you answer my 1 question:

If the majority decided that slavery is ok because it would provide financial benefit to them, would it be ok? Should we then change our laws to allow slavery?
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Laws against murder existed in Europe before the existence of the countries that currently make up Europe. The borders have changed many times, but the tradition of outlawing murder existed prior to the existence of the modern borders.
 
Vitus said:
1.) You still have yet to define “natural” order.

2.) How does a government making illegal private actions by private individuals help society?

3.) What disease would that be?
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  1. Natural law
  2. Private actions are not always private. Ramifications are no t always private. The argument that if it is private it has no effect on society and others is wrong.
  3. Commuicable diseases - AIDS, syphilis, etc…
 
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Ken:
OK. That means our law against murder is not derived from the Ten Commandments, Christianity, or religion.
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Correct. Our law comes from God.

Glad you’ve come round to the truth, finally. 👍
 
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