Legally divorced standing by wedding vows

[JRKH]

I think that the woman that deals with the annulments is clueless at best, or a bad Catholic. The are no loopholes in the validity of a marriage. From what you stated she is threading in dangerous waters. I see that you are trying to do what is right and I would encourage you to talk to the priest or a deacon. Obtaining a decree of nullity based on lax procedures is wrong, and does not make a marriage invalid.

I would hesitate to find fault with the woman who deals with annulments.
Her Job is to look at the situation and to provide information to the one inquiring. It is up to the inquirer to determine if the infromation fits.

When I got divorced and remarried, I had already left the church, then later when I was considering returning to the church, I felt that I could not due to my previous marriage. After talking with the annulment person at another parish, I decided to proceed even though I still had serious doubts about the chances of it’s being granted.
I determined that I would answer every question honestly openly and to the best of my ability and then I would accept whatever the decision was.
As I answered the questions I found that, looking back some 30 years and really examining what had happened was very enlightening. I finally could really see the mistakes I made and how others had tried to warn me. Regardless of the determination of the Tribunal I was glad to have gone through the process.
Of course in my case the annulment was granted.

The upshot of all of this is simply this.
The person who councils is charged with providing information - honestly. She is not charged with making any determination. The person receiving this information is charged with comparing that information with what they know to be true in their marriage. The Tribunal is charged with taking the information supplied to it by those involved and making a determination as to validity or not.
Running through ALL of this is the need for LOVE and TRUTH.

If one truly believes that there might be grounds for an annulment then they should apply. If the Annulment is Granted or not - by a tribunal acting on behalf of The Church - then accept that decision and move on. Accept it as God’s will for you and for your ex spouse.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I also believe that people can lie to get an annulment. Just because the tribunal is guided by the Holy Spirit, that does not imply that people will listen to Him. There is no infallibility associated with the tribunal.

Yes people CAN lie, but then the sin, like all sin, is upon their own, personal, heads.

However, the tribunal, in acting in good conscience upon the information it is provided incurs no error in it’s decision.

ALL of this from start to finish presumes a level of honesty and integrety on all parties involved.

Peace
James

 

[LSK]

My mother did.

My father went on to ‘marry’ someone else.

My mother raised her children in The Faith.

My step-mother died and I helped my father care for his mother-in-law - why?

Because my mother had raised me in The Faith.

My father came back to The Church - received the Sacraments 10 days before he died.

My mother ROCKS.

 

[Cristiano]

I would hesitate to find fault with the woman who deals with annulments.
Her Job is to look at the situation and to provide information to the one inquiring. It is up to the inquirer to determine if the infromation fits.

When I got divorced and remarried, I had already left the church, then later when I was considering returning to the church, I felt that I could not due to my previous marriage. After talking with the annulment person at another parish, I decided to proceed even though I still had serious doubts about the chances of it’s being granted.
I determined that I would answer every question honestly openly and to the best of my ability and then I would accept whatever the decision was.
As I answered the questions I found that, looking back some 30 years and really examining what had happened was very enlightening. I finally could really see the mistakes I made and how others had tried to warn me. Regardless of the determination of the Tribunal I was glad to have gone through the process.
Of course in my case the annulment was granted.

The upshot of all of this is simply this.
The person who councils is charged with providing information - honestly. She is not charged with making any determination. The person receiving this information is charged with comparing that information with what they know to be true in their marriage. The Tribunal is charged with taking the information supplied to it by those involved and making a determination as to validity or not.
Running through ALL of this is the need for LOVE and TRUTH.

If one truly believes that there might be grounds for an annulment then they should apply. If the Annulment is Granted or not - by a tribunal acting on behalf of The Church - then accept that decision and move on. Accept it as God’s will for you and for your ex spouse.

Peace
James

I do not disagree with your point. My comment was based on the fact of how the conversation was presented in this thread. First the loophole. Usually a loophole is something designed to achieve a legal result that goes against the spirit of the law. Then looking at the other suggestions that were presented, it appeared to me that there was an attempt in trying to collect information that would bias the outcome instead of just collecting all the pertinent information in a neutral manner. Asking if the OP got married for a specific reason is biasing the answer, and it is quite different for example from asking how did they feel about some specific topic. Maybe I am too rigid because my own background in data collection and that is why I am not cutting any slack to the annulment counselor. It is possible that she was poorly trained if she behaved in the manner described in the OP, and that she was doing her best to support the parishoner.

 

[JRKH]

I do not disagree with your point. My comment was based on the fact of how the conversation was presented in this thread. First the loophole. Usually a loophole is something designed to achieve a legal result that goes against the spirit of the law.

Yes you are right. “Loophole” definitely does have that connotation.

Then looking at the other suggestions that were presented, it appeared to me that there was an attempt in trying to collect information that would bias the outcome instead of just collecting all the pertinent information in a neutral manner. Asking if the OP got married for a specific reason is biasing the answer, and it is quite different for example from asking how did they feel about some specific topic.

Well - asking if one got married for a specific answer could be looking to bias an answer, or it could just be exposing the inquirer to things that had not been previously considered.

am too rigid because my own background in data collection and that is why I am not cutting any slack to the annulment counselor. It is possible that she was poorly trained if she behaved in the manner described in the OP, and that she was doing her best to support the parishoner.

Possibly you are being too rigid, but then there are many things we do not and cannot know about the situation. I too have a background in “data collection” and also in discerning that is meant from what is said or written. As you undoubteldy know it is dangerous to “read into” things too much. It is usually better to start at what is said, take it at face value and move from there.
A good example is the use of the term, “loophole”. Did the annulment councilor use this term or was she simply providing insight and options for GeorgiaPeach to consider? Did GeorgiaPeach then interpret this as “finding a loophole” (a way to circumvent). Next we must consider whether GeorgiaPeach intended the term “loophole” in the way that you regard it? See what I mean??
It’s obvious that GeorgiaPeach is not looking for a determination on the validity of her marriage. This could easily color any legitimate suggestion provided by even a well trained and experienced councilor.
There are so many angles and avenues in this that it is hard to keep straight.

Overall I’d say that everyone has given pretty good advise and support to the OP. It is up to her to do what she needs to do to keep a clear conscience and keep faith with God.

Peace
James

 

[Lady_Mariegrace]

Dear Georgia Peach,

I sympathize and commend you on your stand. I can even identify in many ways. I have recently been diagnosed with PTSD and through my assessment have come to believe that my ‘husband’ (though legally divorced) is also a victim of it. It is becoming more and more apparent through my counseling that he and i kept triggering our past wounds and possibly creating new pathways to them by our fighting. Up until and even after the legal divorce we said we loved each other but had no answers to our problems due to lots of complications, too many to list here but suffice it to say, bad counseling, lack of vulnerability, lack of insight, and stepchildren. We are both Catholic converts only recently received into the church in 2008. Once i began to work with a new counselor who looked in a different direction than the past ones - things began to become very clear. My heart was so grieved at the things we had said and done. Textbook PTSD.
He had always said he would love me and be there for me and so I approached my husband regarding our vows and a reconciliation or an annulment. He waffled with me about it for a couple of months giving me mixed messages and verbally bashing God and the Church until he finally admitted he had started an online relationship to assuage his loneliness and hurt and could not trust me enough to give me another chance at this time. He actually went this week to meet his friend in person after giving me an ultimatum 2 weeks ago that i ‘cease and desist’ all contact with him so that he could move on with his new woman.
I wish i had the opportunity to show him the things i have discovered about how the PTSD affected our relationship but he is not open to it. He met with our deacon regarding our marriage and informed the deacon about his new relationship before i ever knew about it. He also stated he doesn’t care about annulments but since i cannot move on without one he is willing to help me if i choose it - meaning he wont’ fight it and he will sign anything he needs to but he will not pursue one cause he doesn’t see the need for it. He has quit going to Church since our divorce and says he doesnt’ understand why God did not keep us together and prays daily for answers. I have tried to explain to him about free will and i have cried and prayed and apologized until i am exhausted. i met with our deacon to discuss whether i should stand by my vows or pursue the annulment. The choice was left up to me but since he knew of my husbands behavior he came prepared to give me the paperwork. i have begun it and as other people have posted - it clearly shows you things about yourself and your marriage you may not have thought about. i do not know if it will be granted but i am going to go through with it because it takes two people to reconcile and my husband is not interested in it. I still love him but he has made his choice clear.

If your husband is willing to remain friends with you and is not pursuing other women, maybe you can get him some help with his PTSD and eventually you could reconcile. I applaud you for your decision and i am right there with you about how people nowadays are so ready to chuck their marriage for some other option. This is the hardest thing i have ever went through and i wish to God i had known before the divorce what i know now but for some reason i dont’ understand it didn’t work that way.

The Bible says in I Cor 7:11 for the wife to be reconciled if possible. The Church provides the annulment process for alot of reasons and the soul searching involved is a good thing. But they don’t require you to get an annulment if you wish to stand by your marriage. It is valid in the Church’s eyes until it is proved invalid before a tribunal. No one person can tell you differently.
Seek God and wait on the Lord - Prov 3 5-7

Lady Marie

 

[micahmike]

A couple posters on the first page mentioned celibacy. GeorgiaPeach is not required to be celibate. although her husband has divorced her, she is free to engage in marital relations with him should she choose to. Whether she (or he) would be interested in or well served by such relations is another conversation, but she is not required to be celibate today and it should not be assumed that she will be.

 

[GeorgiaPeach]

Yes you are right. “Loophole” definitely does have that connotation.

Well - asking if one got married for a specific answer could be looking to bias an answer, or it could just be exposing the inquirer to things that had not been previously considered.

Possibly you are being too rigid, but then there are many things we do not and cannot know about the situation. I too have a background in “data collection” and also in discerning that is meant from what is said or written. As you undoubteldy know it is dangerous to “read into” things too much. It is usually better to start at what is said, take it at face value and move from there.

A good example is the use of the term, “loophole”. Did the annulment councilor use this term or was she simply providing insight and options for GeorgiaPeach to consider? Did GeorgiaPeach then interpret this as “finding a loophole” (a way to circumvent). Next we must consider whether GeorgiaPeach intended the term “loophole” in the way that you regard it? See what I mean??
It’s obvious that GeorgiaPeach is not looking for a determination on the validity of her marriage. This could easily color any legitimate suggestion provided by even a well trained and experienced councilor.
There are so many angles and avenues in this that it is hard to keep straight.

Overall I’d say that everyone has given pretty good advise and support to the OP. It is up to her to do what she needs to do to keep a clear conscience and keep faith with God.

Peace
James

I don’t know if loophole was the correct term for what she was doing, but it felt like she was digging for anything. I especially felt this was considering I didn’t set up the appointment to discuss annulment. I wanted advice from our parish priest on how to handle my situation. My husband had just filed for divorce but was very conflicted about his decision. Ultimately it came down to the fact that he had done things that he felt guilty over. Somehow he thought getting a divorce would fix his guilt. It has only compounded it.

I felt ambushed by the lady I met with. All she wanted to talk about was annulment. She told me how weak I would look to my children if I tried to hold on to my marriage. The she started in with the usual, you need to take care of yourself (hello…I’m MARRIED) and find another man (hello…I’m MARRIED)… Besides the fact, I don’t NEED a man to find happiness.

 

[Monsterkittie]

I don’t know why it is so hard for people to accept that I am at peace with my decision. This isn’t so much about my husband, but about my relationship with God. I believe I am sending a great message to my children too.

Any thoughts (reassurance ) on the issue would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

A woman I have come to admire, respect and love very much is in much the same situation. She too was married in the church, and has since then been divorced. At the time she wasn’t close to Christ, but during the hardships that led to the divorce and the time afterward she grew closer. She said that when she said “I do” it was for life and it was for THREE…her, her husband, and God. Since God never said “I divorce you” and she never told God “I divorce you”, she still has a connection within marriage that are covered under “till death do us part”. She said it took a while for her to realize she ISN’T completely alone, and devoted herself to her children and to the bride of her Lord, the church.

I wish you could meet her. She just radiates the light of Christ from within. Sure, some people who are ignorant (but well intentioned) or just plain nosy ask why she doesn’t start dating again (her ex-husband married someone else and has children with ‘wife #2’ now.) My friend says she doesn’t need anyone else. Her heart is complete with her Lord.

Best of luck to you, GeorgiaPeach! But, most of all, Blessings to you! Lean on Him when you’re weary, and take your joy from Him.

You (and all my divorced friends) are in my prayers!!

God bless you, Sister in Christ!

 

[JRKH]

I don’t know if loophole was the correct term for what she was doing, but it felt like she was digging for anything. I especially felt this was considering I didn’t set up the appointment to discuss annulment. I wanted advice from our parish priest on how to handle my situation. My husband had just filed for divorce but was very conflicted about his decision. Ultimately it came down to the fact that he had done things that he felt guilty over. Somehow he thought getting a divorce would fix his guilt. It has only compounded it.

I felt ambushed by the lady I met with. All she wanted to talk about was annulment. She told me how weak I would look to my children if I tried to hold on to my marriage. The she started in with the usual, you need to take care of yourself (hello…I’m MARRIED) and find another man (hello…I’m MARRIED)… Besides the fact, I don’t NEED a man to find happiness.

GP,
I hope you don’t feel that I was atacking you or anything. I was simply discussion how easy it is for us to “read into words”, things that are not there.

I can see how you felt “ambushed” by being “midirected”. Obviously the Pastor jumped to the conclusion that you were seeking advise on an annulment, probably because that is what people in your situation usually are looking for. Thus he set you up with the councilor, and she continued this erronious perspective, otherwise why would the pastor ask her to meet with you.

Have you tired to talk with your pastor again, expalning that, at least for present, you are not interested in seeking an annulment?

Peace
James

 

[GeorgiaPeach]

James - I didn’t feel attacked! I just wanted to clarify the questions you brought up.

It was actually the secretary at the church office that set up my appointment with the “annulment lady” vs. the pastor (as I requested) when she found out it had to do with divorce. I didn’t realize this until I showed up.

At the time of the meeting I hadn’t been served yet but knew it was coming. I was in a fragile state anyway, just dreading that knock at the door. My emotions were running high. I actually left the appointment wanting to get the marriage annulled. Of course, once my emotions settled and rational thinking returned, I felt much differently.

Thank everyone for all of their (name removed by moderator)ut. I am exploring starting a support group for people in my situation once we get settled at our new parish.

 

[Ailina]

James - I didn’t feel attacked! I just wanted to clarify the questions you brought up.

It was actually the secretary at the church office that set up my appointment with the “annulment lady” vs. the pastor (as I requested) when she found out it had to do with divorce. I didn’t realize this until I showed up.

At the time of the meeting I hadn’t been served yet but knew it was coming. I was in a fragile state anyway, just dreading that knock at the door. My emotions were running high. I actually left the appointment wanting to get the marriage annulled. Of course, once my emotions settled and rational thinking returned, I felt much differently.

Thank everyone for all of their (name removed by moderator)ut. I am exploring starting a support group for people in my situation once we get settled at our new parish.

I’m curious as to whom the “annulment lady” was. Perhaps she was a member of the diocese Tribunal Office? Perhaps the secretary mistakenly thought you wanted to see someone from the Tribunal when you phoned the parish office.

It seems odd. When I started the annulment process, I had to meet with my parish priest first to discuss my case in order to decide whether there were adequate grounds for starting the Annulment process going. In my case, there was no question that I kept my vows, but there were huge questions about whether my ex understood the vows he undertook. The parish priest then submitted a form we both filled out and sent it to the local Tribunal office.

I don’t see anything wrong with availing the services the Church provides, such as annulments. For a lot of people, it helps provide closure to a very painful part of life. To me, it’s another service akin to going to confession.

 

[GeorgiaPeach]

Ailina - She is the Pastorial Assistant. She heads up the Divorce Group, Couples Group, Annulments and Convalidations. I ran into her tonight after Mass and she congratulated me on my divorce and asked me to meet with her before I leave town.

Our parish has a lot of oddities I am not totally comfortable with. It isn’t as traditional as I like. We are moving back to our hometown soon enough. I LOVE the parish there.

 

[JRKH]

James - I didn’t feel attacked! I just wanted to clarify the questions you brought up.

Great. The last thing I wanted to do was any any more stress to your life.

It was actually the secretary at the church office that set up my appointment with the “annulment lady” vs. the pastor (as I requested) when she found out it had to do with divorce. I didn’t realize this until I showed up.

At the time of the meeting I hadn’t been served yet but knew it was coming. I was in a fragile state anyway, just dreading that knock at the door. My emotions were running high. I actually left the appointment wanting to get the marriage annulled. Of course, once my emotions settled and rational thinking returned, I felt much differently.

Thank everyone for all of their (name removed by moderator)ut. I am exploring starting a support group for people in my situation once we get settled at our new parish.

Yea - I can see where the timing was a big factor in how the meeting affected you.

All in all I believe you are a fine and strong woman - beloved of God - for your courage.

Hope to hear more about how you are gietting settled into your “new” life in your “old” hometown.

Peace
James

 

[Palomas]

I am just wondering if there are any legally divorced Catholics out there that have decided to stand my their wedding vows?

Long story short, I was married to a great man for 17 years (3 children). Mid-life crisis combined with PTSD (military) lead him to file for legal divorce. I am in a no-fault state, so I had no option but to go along with the divorce.

I set up an appointment to talk to our parish priest to get advice regarding legal divorce. Instead, the woman who deals with annulments met with me. She quized me and found a “loop hole” that would allow for an annulment. It stunned me.

My husband and I are on very friendly terms and talk daily. We are both in agreement that our marriage was valid.

Although I know in my heart that I am doing God’s will by standing by my vows, I seem to be alone in my views. I mean, I did say “for better or for worse.” This is the “worse” in my opinion. If this means growing old alone, then so be it.

My views are difficult for anyone else to accept. If I hear “screw him” or that some man will come along and “sweep me off my feet” one more time I am going to scream.

I don’t know why it is so hard for people to accept that I am at peace with my decision. This isn’t so much about my husband, but about my relationship with God. I believe I am sending a great message to my children too.

Any thoughts (reassurance ) on the issue would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

God bless you and all those in a similar situation.

I know of two different people in this predicament. In one person’s case, a divorce and annulment were granted, but this person did not want either one and has remained faithful to the vows despite the spouse having “remarried” a number of years ago. This particular person has gotten so much flack from coworkers as well as fellow parishioners but has remained loyal to the marriage vows through it all.

And with the second person, the situation is very similar, but we have reason to believe and hope that things will turn around not just for them, but for society in general, that marriage as an institution will be restored.

Pax,
Palomas

 

[gambino]

Peach,
All I can say is that what is in your heart must be valid. I applaud you for going against the grain of the world. I get alot of flak for my stance too. And I often wonder if its worth it. I haven’t heard a word from my wife in almost 3 years…no contact, no apology, nothing. But then I realize that for the time being, I’m called to love her the way Christ loves me. It makes me sad that I didn’t fully realize this while I was actively with her. I could’ve been such a more amazing husband for her. I pretended to be this great Catholic, but I was a pagan in how I lived…I didn’t love her purely and I gave in to the temptations of the world (lust, drinking, laziness) way too often. But even now and despite my intense pain, I know that my prayers for her are efficacious.

As you go on with this journey, I think that you have to be prepared to lose even more. Some of my friends, family and even now my parents don’t understand why I don’t move on. And to be honest, I don’t know why either. But I do believe that God places things on our heart. And while I’ve half-heartedly started an annulment to 1.) possibly keep her out of sin. 2.) trust in the wisdom of the church. I won’t provide them with an evidence on my part that I believe my half of the vow is invalid. In the end, God will judge us for what we have done and didn’t do. Becoming a hero for the faith and my wife’s soul would be vindication enough.

 

[Ailina]

Ailina - She is the Pastorial Assistant. She heads up the Divorce Group, Couples Group, Annulments and Convalidations. I ran into her tonight after Mass and she congratulated me on my divorce and asked me to meet with her before I leave town.

Our parish has a lot of oddities I am not totally comfortable with. It isn’t as traditional as I like. We are moving back to our hometown soon enough. I LOVE the parish there.

I don’t see anything wrong with a Catholic support group for Separated/Divorced people. Such a group helped me when my ex-husband left. I now facilitate this support group, and have to say all the participants are hurting and in need of a sympathetic ear to listen to their struggles. I am starting to think that too many people stay far too long in terrible marital situations, and that maybe leaving sooner rather than later would be best for everyone. Some marriages are not made in heaven.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Long story short, I was married to a great man for 17 years (3 children). Mid-life crisis combined with PTSD (military) lead him to file for legal divorce. I am in a no-fault state, so I had no option but to go along with the divorce.

I set up an appointment to talk to our parish priest to get advice regarding legal divorce. Instead, the woman who deals with annulments met with me. She quized me and found a “loop hole” that would allow for an annulment. It stunned me.

My husband and I are on very friendly terms and talk daily. We are both in agreement that our marriage was valid

. . .

Any thoughts (reassurance ) on the issue would be much appreciated.

You have mine!

Actually, the comment about “loopholes” does not surprise me. I have plans on writing an article about the topic of annulments and the number granted today, and I am essentially going to argue that annulments have often in our Church’s history been used as a “loophole” (for instance, the marriages of the filles-du-roi in New France), and that God may have even providentially arranged it that way. I know that sounds odd, but I can’t do it justice here, and it will probably be years before I get around to writing it (I have a pile of other things on my list of topics before I can get to this one).

If you want some more reassurance, you have Scott Hahn’s. I will reprint what I wrote years ago on this forum when annulments were being debated. This is from his “Exodus” CD series, Tape #7 I believe:

Dr. Hahn begins by saying “Church lawyers brag they can annul every marriage”, based on “27 different grounds of psychological disturbances”. He concludes that “most annulments” are not true annulments. His suggestion? Even though he thinks seeking an annulment today is a dangerous thing because of the above, he says: “Don’t not seek an annulment, but don’t purjure yourself or exaggerate, tell the whole truth. If you think the decision was made because it was the easy road, the shortcut, you will stand before God and He will show you your decision, and if there is any falsification or hedging and if you know lawyers played fast and loose with Church law, you are an adulterer”. Therefore he concludes, “if you do seek an annulment, do it with caution”, for “Church courts are not infallible”, and in the end, if you are guilty of what is described above, your ignorance is “vincible”.

I don’t want to re-ignite the debate on annulments (I already debated that on this forum, and I believe the thread was closed and we are no longer allowed to debate it anyway). But I will give you my full support for your decision. And I think there are many people like you who know their marriages were truly valid, and have decided to do likewise. And I also think it is sad that people feel it is tragic you will not seek an annulment, as though your life cannot be as meaningful or fulfilling if you remain single.

 

[Michael_Saint]

To then be told that there was never a marriage to begin with and that the woman who I continue to love is not and never has been my wife… I think that might destroy me completely.

Tietjen, please refer to the quote I cited of Dr. Hahn.

A tribunal’s decision is not infallible - and that is certainly true today. The Roman Rota overturns most of the annulments granted in the US when appealed. If there is an “annulment” granted, it does not mean you were not married.

 

[Michael_Saint]

However, in a later post you say that the loophole is that his parents were divorced?! That doesn’t make much sense in light of canon law with respect to validity of marriages. The person who said that doesn’t know their stuff.

Not so. Canon lawyers would argue that if one’s parents are divorced, this may have had a profound enough effect on the children that they were unable to trust enough to give themselves fully at the altar, or something to that effect. In fact, they might say his “PTSD” actually began after the divorce, and that it was merely exacerbated by time in the army.

People have received annulments over less. No, this person who said this definitely did know her stuff!