legislating morality

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What do you mean, ‘none of the qualities?’ At exactly what STAGE are you talking about? “Fetus” is used to define an unborn child up to the moment of birth.

40 week old fetus in the womb has ‘none of the qualities of a human’. . .40 week fetus delivered ONE minute later and suddenly, wow, it’s human?:rolleyes:

I find it puzzling that you can make such a tremendously blanket kind of statement “None of the qualities” and act as though your statement is the fact without any kind of proof to back you up.
Exactly. and murder is murder, in the case of abortion I would imagine it would be 1st degree. Its an issue which need be re-defined. But its not only a murder, its pre-meditated. And all those involved are liable by the conspiracy laws.

All this would need be re-defined simply due to Roe vs Wade and the Griswald case’s are very old. This is 70’s we are talking now.

In emergeny medical. Loss is very rare. Today they make a choice, be it the mother or the child. This usually happens in a complicated delivery when the mother is cut and bleeding out is a possibility. The loss of either is very rare.

I know the case’s here, but I don’t know the statistics nation wide.

God Bless, Gary
 
The whole point of some of us (the LDS poster, Sufjon, and others) is that our religions do not define abortion as murder under all circumstances. This is a religious freedom issue as much as an issue of morality.
I’m sure the Nazis felt the same way.
 
=z0wb13;7710732]i understand that there are probably as many opinions on abortion as there are people on this forum. that said, why should any one religion’s opinion on the subject be forced onto people that aren’t of that faith?
so abortion is a sin in the catholic church, but why should hindus or muslims have to accept that? some do or don’t anyway, but there doesn’t seem to be any general consensus in those religions. most muslims allow it until the fourth month, and many, but not all, hindus ban it outright.
so my question isn’t on whether or not abortion is a sin. rather, i want to know is if it is ever alright to force one person’s beliefs on another person, and why or under what circumstances.
No dear friend;

Abortion is MURDER of a "holy and innocent, defenseless baby: The Fifth Commandment is not ONLY for catholics; but for all of humanity. Therefore it is always a GRAVE Moral wrong. “Thou Shall Not Kill” means everyone… not only catholics; and that is how God will judge the action.

God Bless,
Pat

From the current Code of Canon Law:
BOOK III. THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI …

Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.

**§2. **No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience.

God Bless,
Pat
 
Let me be very blunt. No, a woman should not have the choice to kill her unborn baby. It is a human life which should be afforded all the protections that other human life is given. Why should a mother have a choice to kill her unborn child? If she is in a position of saving her life or saving her child’s life she should have the choice, as grim as that choice may be. No one is asking the hospital to kill the mother. They should do all they can to save both. But if that choice arises, the mother should always be allowed to choose the life of her child above her own.

We are speaking of an intrinsic evil and religious views should be as valid here as they are with murder, robbery or any other grave crime. Morality is what our laws, for the most part, are based upon.
I agree that a woman should be able to chose the life of her child over her own, and she should be able to chose her own life if that is her capacity and inclination at the time. It is not up to you and I to decide that. Let me be clear. If you mandate no abortions under any circumstances, you will indeed create situations where mothers will die unwillingly, and medical practitioners will be put in the position of aiding and abetting in their deaths. I don’t see abortion as a form of birth control. I support artificial contraception as a better alternative. The position of churches like yours and mine are simply unrealistic regarding birth control. These positions are causing untold deaths in under developed regions of the world where abstinence is being pushed as the way to prevent STD’s when it is well known that it is unrealistic to expect abstinence. That is a far greater crime against humanity than the issue of abortion in cases of danger to a mother’s health. Let me be more clear. I am disgusted at what is being done by high handed religious organizations in Africa. Hold a mass where only adults who have never in their lives used a condom can attend and I’ll show you a mass that is sparsely attended. So before we start legislating what women do to protect their own health, or preaching morals at the expense of others people’s lives, perhaps we should more closely examine our own behavior. God is not calling on you and I to hunt down other people and point out their moral flaws. He calls on you and I to clean our own houses, and a good place to start is to look with compassion on others without regard to our opinions on their morality.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
… a fetus has none of the qualities that are generally attributed to a human. the potential to become something does not qualify it as being that thing. that’s why vegetarians can eat eggs but not chickens. that’s why furniture is made out of trees, not seeds.
From the moment of conception, the human being is created in the image and likeness of God; eggs, chickens, furniture, and seeds are not. This is where we get the religious perspective that all persons are created equal. If the human being is not created in the image and likeness of God, there would be no need to treat people equally before the law, because they would be no different from eggs, chickens, furniture, and seeds.

History is replete with claims that a certain class of people is not really human. American slave owners justified slavery by claiming that blacks were not really human beings. The Nazis said the same thing about the Jews. Have you never heard of the Golden Rule? Suppose we got enough people to support a law that declared Taoists were not really human? Besides, how can you support a “choice” that, if you mother had made it, you wouldn’t be here to advocate for it? If such advocacy isn’t a fallacy, it should be.

So you, my friend, have fallen for what we Christians call the Big Lie. A pro-abortion editorial appearing in the September 1970 issue of California Medicine contains a revealing statement on lying in the service of killing:
“Since the old ethic has not yet been fully displaced, it has been necessary to separate the idea of abortion from the idea of killing, which continues to be socially abhorrent. The result has been a curious avoidance of the scientific fact, which everybody knows, that human life begins at conception and is continuous whether intra- or extra-uterine until death. The very considerable semantic gymnastics which are required to rationalize abortion as anything but the taking of a human life would be ludicrous if they were not often put forth under socially impeccable auspices. It is suggested that this schizophrenic sort of subterfuge is necessary because while a new ethic is being accepted the old one has not yet been rejected.” [Emphasis added] This is not a religious perspective; it was written by those who support abortion on demand.
it is a religious sentiment that attempts to define an embryo as a human being. so, how can another person’s religious perspective be used to make the laws?
Whether you accept it or not, all laws are based on someone’s religious perspectives. Take environmentalists for example. They worship mother earth and have been successful [and they make no qualms about it] in forcing the rest of us obey their “religious perspectives.” Remember that the imposition of values (lawmaking) is part of creating a government and society. Thus, it’s not a matter of if we’re going to impose values but simply what values will be imposed.

Can’t you see that?
 
Here here! Abortion advocates love going into this game, but when it comes to talking hard numbers, their vagueness is dispersed, and you see the opinion of what they consider human is based on their stance on abortion. My stance on abortion is from when I recognize human life, and that will be the defining difference between us and them.
No problem with that. But we have to start discussing penalties for abortion. If the pro-life side doesn’t bring up punishment, the pro-choice side will. Seems like there is some agreement to treat abortion as first degree murder. Here’s a statistical breakout of abortion frequency in the US:
INCIDENCE OF ABORTION

• Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.[1] Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.[2]

• Forty percent of pregnancies among white women, 69% among blacks and 54% among Hispanics are unintended.[1] In 2008, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000. However, between 2005 and 2008, the long-term decline in abortions stalled. From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions occurred.[2]

• Each year, two percent of women aged 15-44 have an abortion;[2] half have had at least one previous abortion.[6] At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45[4], and, at current rates, about one-third will have had an abortion
guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.htmlbortion.[5]

That’s large population to deal with. I don’t think law enforcement has enough resources to prosecute over a million cases of murder a year. Should there be a phasing of an abortion ban? But what of the abortions committed during the phasing in period? They are murders and should be treated as a crime. Things get very complicated quickly.

I’m trying to be realistic. I know most people here are pro-life. But you can’t outlaw abortion without legal penalties. So what should be the penalties be? And how should be ban be enforced? What about birth control pills that some say cause abortion? Outlaw birth control pills? If you want to change the laws, you need to have an idea of what laws to change and how to change them.
 
A phony argument. There are other laws regarding what you cannot do with your body: You cannot sell it; you cannot take illegal drugs; you cannot be drunk in public, e.g.
-You can sell your body legally in some very civilized countries.

-You can sell organs from your body in many places legally.

-What is an illegal drug in one place is not always so in a another place.

-You can legally drink yourself right into liver failure as long as you don’t drive a car or show up in public.

-Committing suicide is illegal in the US as far as I know, but I have never seen a cadaver brought up on these charges.

What is the point? That if you come down with a medical condition in the first trimester of pregnancy where going full term will cause you to die, you should have to die because some religions prohibit abortion? My religion prohibits the torment and killing of animals as much as it prohibits abortion, so should we stop all medical research that might save your life or mine or the lives of countless others because of my religious convictions? I am responsible for what Sufjon does. If I should chose to die under some unforeseen circumstance to uphold my convictions on non-violence to animals that is my choice. It should never be imposed on you to do the same. My views on morality are not always practical nor would they serve the common good very well in many cases. That is why there is separation of church and state.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
-You can sell your body legally in some very civilized countries.
Not in the U.S. [Do you know what “selling your body” means?]
-You can sell organs from your body in many places legally.
Not in the U.S.
-What is an illegal drug in one place is not always so in a another place.
We’re talking about the U.S. where there are laws against taking illegal drugs.
-You can legally drink yourself right into liver failure as long as you don’t drive a car or show up in public.
I grant you this one.
-Committing suicide is illegal in the US as far as I know, but I have never seen a cadaver brought up on these charges.
I think you mean attempting to commit suicide.
What is the point?
The point is that sweeping statements like, “It’s my body, and I can do whatever I want with it” just don’t hold water.
 
By your logic, the State should then execute or, at least, imprison the mother who has an abortion. And why not also execute or imprison the doctor who performs the abortion? And maybe the family of the mother who consent to her having an abortion, as accomplices? And the hospital administrators who allow the abortion to be performed? How about the legislators who made the abortion legal: they too should be punished. And, if we can round them up, the whole pro-abortion (pro-choice is a better description) culture, including me? Why not according to what you say? Murder is murder. Of course, legally speaking, murder is NOT murder. There are gradations of legal culpability, including criminal intent and extenuating or mitigating circumstances. I recall Ronald Reagan, in a presidential debate, made the same argument as you. He actually called mothers who have abortions murderers. I wonder though whether he or you are willing to take the next step leading to imprisonment for the mother, doctor, and others implicated in the crime. If not, why not, based on your argument?
We are all entitled to our own opinion, but not to our own facts. A baby in the womb is first a person, and alive and is murdered by abortion. Those facts are facts. Now in your opinion, you may believe that the mother has the “right” to committ murder based upon the politically legislated laws, which in this country is true, but that does not change the fact that it is murder. To kill an innocent baby in the womb would be called what . . . . if not murder.

And to your litany of those who are guilty of condemnation, the answer is yes, they are all guilty of being culpable of murder if they support or advocate abortion.

And to answer your charge of would I have them killed, no, I would have them live so that they can, through experience change their “opinion” and embrace the facts and be saved.

However, GOD the FATHER, in HIS justice will deal with all of us at the time of our deaths based upon how we live our lives in accordance with HIS facts, and not our opinions.
 
Hello JharekCamelian: In regards to the question as to whether I know what selling your body means, yes I know it means prostitution. I personally would not pay for sex, but I cannot say that doing so is uncivilized. I also cannot take the moral high ground in respect to that topic because I have never found it to be very difficult to obtain for free. Who can say what I may or may not have paid for if that were not the case. I can say that it is counter to my own personal moral standards, but I have never been put to that test. I have also never had a hard time finding a way to make a living, so I am in no position to judge either party participating in such transactions.

I see you use s’s instead of z’s so I gather you are in the UK. I worked there for 18 months once doing joint venture work. Ever since then I am never sure when to use an s or a z. 🙂

Your friend
Sufjon
 
Problem with prostitution here is its hand in glove with “all” the issues. First there’s the abortion, then the drug use which by large fuels that trade. Then add on top of the STDs and most significant the HIV Virus. All interact with each other. The drug dealers have constant business with the girls, then the deviates. Oh its something to behold.

So by large in places like NYC you have heath care workers literally in the street handing out condoms, clean needles with bleach for AIDs, and pamphlets for self-help programs. Oh its a bit out of control I would say, especially NY since theres a large population of children on the streets also.

Nothing new in NYC though. Its been that way as long as I can remember. It may even be slightly better today.
 
For the majority of the time in America, yes. But, not in ALL cases…
Exactly my point. And we must protect the religious and legal rights of this minority. No one is forcing Catholics to have abortions under any circumstances. Why can’t our “opponents” on this issue see this? Mormons and Jews unite!
 
We are all entitled to our own opinion, but not to our own facts. A baby in the womb is first a person, and alive and is murdered by abortion. Those facts are facts. Now in your opinion, you may believe that the mother has the “right” to committ murder based upon the politically legislated laws, which in this country is true, but that does not change the fact that it is murder. To kill an innocent baby in the womb would be called what . . . . if not murder.

And to your litany of those who are guilty of condemnation, the answer is yes, they are all guilty of being culpable of murder if they support or advocate abortion.

And to answer your charge of would I have them killed, no, I would have them live so that they can, through experience change their “opinion” and embrace the facts and be saved.

However, GOD the FATHER, in HIS justice will deal with all of us at the time of our deaths based upon how we live our lives in accordance with HIS facts, and not our opinions.
Even the immorality of murder must sometimes be weighed against the morality of saving a human life, according to Judaism. The original example I and others had discussed–either on this thread or another, I don’t recall anymore–infrequent as it may be, is the one in which a mother’s life is in dire jeopardy if she does not abort her baby. This terrible situation is compounded by the fact that it is too early in the pregnancy for the baby to survive without the mother. Would you have the mother be forced not to terminate her pregnancy and die ALONG WITH HER BABY or abort the baby and have the mother live? I repeat, my faith says the moral thing to do is to abort the baby and save the life of the mother, rather than forfeit the lives of BOTH the baby and the mother. As a Catholic, you may disagree: that is your religious prerogative. No one is taking that religious right away from you. What I and others of my faith as well as LDS, Hindus, and (I believe) Quakers are asking of you is that you have respect for other religious principles and not prevent us from exercising our religious rights. The exercise of this right is NEVER a happy one; on the contrary, it is full of anguish for the mother and the family. However, for some of us, it is the moral thing to do provided, of course, the mother and her family consent to the abortion.
 
In the US, public funding for abortions for poor women is minimal at best, only for exceptional cases, and not provided in all states.
How many infant deaths are required for the number to be considered “minimal?”
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meltzerboy:
More of our tax money is used to support the war in Afghanistan and other conflicts than for abortion.
This is no justification for funding a practice that, when successful results in the death of at least one person. (BTW, I’m not a big supporter of the war(s) that two administrations have perpetuated and expanded.)
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meltzerboy:
Of course, abortion is not comparable to an elective cosmetic procedure. The majority of women who have abortions don’t do it for “kicks.” And it is also true that some women may abuse their legal rights, middle class women as well as poor, and wealthy women who may be able to afford abortions in private clinics. (I would suppose you are opposed to abortions in private settings as well as public.)
Again, you’re not really addressing the main point. Abortion is a medical procedure that, when successful, ends a life. It is per se different from all other medical procedures. My earlier post made clear that funding the practice with tax money is just one basis for establishing the fact that we who oppose the practice are, through our taxes, forced to participate in it. And I oppose even a “minimal” amount of killing with my tax money - regardless of the fact that others may fund their own abortion.
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meltzerboy:
I agree abortions are a serious matter and should be rare and performed only in severe circumstances.
Then you would be against the constitutionally protected right to abortion, because since Roe v. Wade was decided, the number of abortions in this country increased exponentially.
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meltzerboy:
But to make ALL abortions illegal will not end abortions; it will only make them unregulated and much less safe.
First, a successful regulated abortion is not safe either. It kills a human beging… always. Second, if abortion were not a Constitutionally protected right, it would not disappear. It would be more heavily regulated at the state and local level. The argument that if Roe v. Wade were overturned back alley abortions would be the only recourse for a poor unwed mother is nothing but propaganda. No one wants to see women hurt by submitting to unsterile procedures, but we’ve seen the alternative for the past 30 years and the number of deaths by abortion is staggering. 1/3 of my generation never made it out of the womb by some estimates.
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meltzerboy:
You and other hard-line opponents of abortion under ANY circumstances fail to realize, or simply do not accept, that not all women’s religious beliefs agree with your own and that you are attempting to impose your own religious values on the whole population.
To the contrary, I believe that women of all religious backgrounds deserve much better than a “medical” procedure that results in the murder of one person and the emotional and physical brutalization of another person. And I need not force my particular religious doctrine on women to make this point. You need not believe in the soul, or heaven, or even God. But if you accept the most common fundamental right that every human being is to be given equal dignity, then you have to see that abortion is simply NOT an acceptable solution no matter what. There are alternatives. A woman who thinks an abortion is her only “solution” has been deceived by the culture in which she lives.

Again meltzerboy, This is not a “Catholic” or even a “Christian” religious issue. It is a human dignity issue in which pro-“choice” advocates argue while considering only one of the two humans in the picture. They think they are being compassionate to the poor mother, but they are just as deceived by our culture. It makes me so sad.

Peace,
Robert
 
I had not yet read these comments when I had written my response to your comment addressed to me. Still, I think my prior remarks stand. No one is depriving you of your morality, grounded in your religious faith, by legalizing abortion. Your family members are not being forced to have an abortion. But how about other people’s morality: what makes you assume that their morality is not grounded on THEIR religious faith? Do you believe that if one chooses abortion, that means one does not have any religious faith? Just because YOU have concluded that abortion is murder does not mean that others have reached the same conclusion in keeping with their own faith. I find it interesting that you use science to justify your thinking on abortion.
meltzerboy said:
(I’m wondering whether you rely so much on science when it does not accord with your religious views, as in supporting the theory of evolution.)

I believe that neither science nor the theory of evolution are not inconsistent with my faith. You seem to have quite a few preconceived notions about who I am and what I believe. Maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions so fast. 👍
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meltzerboy:
Biology actually states that an embryo is a viable human life, not exactly the same as a fully or even partially formed fetus. And science does make qualitative distinctions with regard to fetal development. BTW, although this is really a topic for another thread, are you also opposed to stem cell research, as well as abortion, based on your morality regarding that life begins at conception? Most scientists do support stem cell research.
You do know that the right to an abortion based upon a finding of viability is a legal construct, right? Viability is not an issue. The issue is about respect for all human life. “Qualitative distinctions” are fine for science, but not when it comes to making moral (as opposed to dogmatically religious) decisions on when taking of human life is proper. And this is off the topic but I am not opposed to adult stem cell research. I do oppose fetal stem cell research, where the stem cells are the byproduct of the taking of human life. Most scientists do support stem cell research. Many oppose fetal stem cell research. There is a distinction to make between the two.

Peace,
Robert
 
I agree with you 100% meltzerboy. My religion requires me to be a vegetarian. We see killing any creature as unacceptable, but should my religious conviction be forced on everyone else? I like separation of church and state. I watch other people eat carcasses that are prettied up and made tasty and it makes me ill to watch, but I have the choice not to watch and the choice not to participate.

Your friend,
Sufjon
Friend sufjon. I may not agree with your vegan lifestyle, but I would not say you are barred from the political discussion on the matter. And if you convince the U.S. Congress or the courts to ban beef, well then I’ll congratulate you on your victory as I pack up my belongings to move to Canada. 😃

Peace,
Robert
 
I believe that neither science nor the theory of evolution are not inconsistent with my faith. You seem to have quite a few preconceived notions about who I am and what I believe. Maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions so fast. 👍

You do know that the right to an abortion based upon a finding of viability is a legal construct, right? Viability is not an issue. The issue is about respect for all human life. “Qualitative distinctions” are fine for science, but not when it comes to making moral (as opposed to dogmatically religious) decisions on when taking of human life is proper. And this is off the topic but I am not opposed to adult stem cell research. I do oppose fetal stem cell research, where the stem cells are the byproduct of the taking of human life. Most scientists do support stem cell research. Many oppose fetal stem cell research. There is a distinction to make between the two.

Peace,
Robert
Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions too much on what your views and beliefs are. I apologize for that. FYI, most scientists state that embryonic stem cells offer more promise than adult stem cells; a minority of scientists disagree.
 
For me, the simplest point comes down to DNA.

Granted, the mother is concerned with her body. But there is ANOTHER human body that is distinct. The mother’s DNA is only in her tissues. The child (at the moment of conception) has one-of-a-kind, never before and never again, unique DNA. That’s HUMAN DNA.

Really, what else can be said regarding the beginning of human life?
 
What is sad is that the immorality that is being legislated has resulted in the fact that, statistically, the most dangerous, life threatening place to live in this world is a mothers womb.
 
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