The point is that all morality derives itself from religion. Those religious codes of law and morals have become such a part of society that now all societies have them. Your religious beliefs don’t make you immoral because your society has systemized that morality through law and a communal sense of good.
Is that really a religious belief? Is it even a personal belief - could you actually look at a newborn the moment before he takes his first breath and not see a human? Can you really believe that inhaling is what gives us our humanity? It seems more likely that you see the illogic of choosing an arbitrary event or time between conception and first breath to say that humanity has somehow popped into the fetus and so have chosen a short time after birth to believe we become human.
Have you ever read Joanthan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal” for solving the problem of starving Irishmen? He seems to be thinking along the same lines as you are.
absolutely. i will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you plainly don’t understand. but it is my profound religious belief that life begins when a baby takes its first breath.
sometimes it’s hard to read a person’s tone on a web board. i’m not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but if you read what i said, then i stated rather explicitly that it is a personal and religious belief.
again, this is my religious belief. i don’t understand how you can look at the world and see any kind of afterlife. i just can’t. i don’t understand how bad things could happen to good people if a benevolent force looked after the universe.
No I don’t. If abortion is supposed to work (it doesn’t but let’s pretend it does) then the children need to be taken care of, the chances the mother will be a proper mother are low, so where is the support?
Really? So it is ok for you to do an abortion just one week before a woman is giving brith to a child? That opinion is rather unusual view.
I agree that we can’t force Catholic values on people but we can definitely make abortion illegal, if the majority of the people thinks that is right and it becomes illegal in a democratic way. I say that because while it surely is a Catholic value that abortion is wrong you don’t have to be a Catholic or even be religious in any way to think so. The question is not about religion, it is about whether humans have the right to live or not and also when the unborn life becomes a human. In a way, the abortion issue is just about the interpretation of the belief that all humans have a right to live. And I think that the people who are pro-choice understand why a person who are pro-life can’t compromise and why they will try to make abortion illegal if they can. Because, assuming that they are not racists, they would do the same thing if someone wanted to exterminate all Native Americans. The racists probably also thinks that the non-racists stands in their way because of the non-racists own personal opinions. They can however think that we are stupid, if thats what they want.
If someone I know is going to get an abortion; I can disagree with her and beg her not to get one… But at the end of the day i have no right to stop her on… It’s not my child and it’s currently legal… Short of a constitutional amendment on abortion it will remain legal sadly…
stop putting words in my mouth. that would never happen. that is a straw man argument, and if that’s not obvious to everyone else on the boards, then you need to look up “straw man argument” on wikipedia.
that’s not my opinion at all. it’s not even close to my opinion. if you can’t understand this, then feel free to ask me questions. but what you are doing really is arguing with yourself. because the “opinions” that you ascribe to me are your own, as are your criticisms of them. like a snake eating its tail.
so when exactly does the unborn life become a human? like i said, it is my firm religious belief that life begins when you take your first breath. things like breath, wind and lightness are very important to taoists.
so you must understand that i can’t move an inch from my position. so what would andromedus do next, now that you have reached an impasse?
Yes, of course as long as it is legal you can’t do anything but trying to convince people, but if it is decided in a democratic way that abortion should be illegal then you also force people. I thought you meant even that would be wrong. Now its seems like thats not the case, or did I misunderstand your post?
It would perhaps never happen but I don’t see how that is relevant at all since I was asking about whether you thought an abortion one week before a woman is giving birth to a child is acceptable or not. I am sorry that I implied that you thought it was acceptable if you don’t, I am rather relieved if thats the case actually.
Ok, but then I wonder, what is the human before its first breath? I mean, there is no huge difference between the moment a person is born and the moment before that happens and when do you think an abortion is acceptable? If it ever is? It is quite easy to assume that you think an abortion is ok until the last moment since you say that a human becomes human with the first breath, but you reacted strongly against that assumption so it seems like you don’t think an abortion that late is acceptable. However, when you wrote ‘‘become human’’ did you mean that the life becomes fully human or something like it?
Its hard for me to say exactly when it becomes a life, but I think it is early and therefore I don’t want someone to do an abortion for the same reason that you don’t close your eyes and fire a gun just because it might not kill someone. Well, if you don’t move an inch from your position and I don’t either then its up to the majority of the people to decide whether it should be illegal or not. So I can only try to convince people.
I’m sorry, but this stance is, in my opinion, the tragic flaw of ‘pro-choice Catholics’. It isn’t about pushing your beliefs on others. It is the belief that human life begins at the moment of conception - when sperm and egg join to create a separate human being, with human DNA; a live organism that has a heartbeat (more on this below). Catholics, and scientists, recognize this as a human being. Therefore, the killing of that human being is murder. Since not only our religion (and pretty much all religions), but pretty much all societies and codes of law also, recognize murder as wrong, we must stand against abortion. Follow the thread - it was documented that one of the ideas of the pro-choice movement and the push for legalized abortion back in the 60s and 70s was to try and convince people that a fetus is not a human. Sadly, this seems to have actually worked.
How can you end suffering for the whole world, then? Your suggestion is that suffering is bad, and people ‘may not’ have a good shot in life of ‘making something’ of themselves by being properly educated and raised, so it is better that they are not even born? Congratulations, you would wipe out the whole population in the next 60 years.
That is true, you cannot physically stop someone. But you can pray for them, you can pray for an end to abortions, you can protest, call your local and national lawmakers, etc. Just because you can’t physically stop someone doesn’t mean you can’t do anything.
Yes that is the goal.
No I have never said what you are saying right here. Please use quotes.
No, it is better that those causing the suffering are stopped.
No it is a terrible example. This isn’t the thread to discuss that.
Definitely not.
I never made the argument you are arguing against here, however you could pick a case or two for every general trend that goes against it.
How do you propose to end suffering? And isn’t murder causing harm? There have been several abortionists and pro-choice advocates who, after watching the destructive and harmful video tape of an actual abortion, have become pro-life. Their testimony is that the fetus is suffering. So, ending abortions is helping to end suffering.
i agree. but you are playing a little loose and fast with scientific facts. as much fun as watching tv is, you can’t rely on it for medical information. clinical death means cardiac arrest, when the heart stops beating, and blood flow ceases to deliver oxygen to the brain. but just because someone is clinically dead, it doesn’t mean they are permanently dead; like you mentioned, CPR may be used to revive people.
You wanted a quote, so here it is. As a reminder, my statement was: Your suggestion is that suffering is bad, and people ‘may not’ have a good shot in life of ‘making something’ of themselves by being properly educated and raised…