Legitimacy of the Book of Sirach

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How can I answer someone who believes that the Book of Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) in the Old Testament is a “devotional book read in churches written sometime pre-middle ages and put in the Bible by the Catholic Church”, implying that it was not part of the original canon of Scripture and at any rate, is not legitimately a book of Scripture?
 
Haven’t pieces of the Book been found written in Hebrew among the Dead Sea Scrolls? Certainly it was included among the Septuagint which means it was considered along with other Scripture amongst Pre-Christian Greek speaking Jews.

The Christian Church that included the Book of Sirach did so with the same authority that She had in including all the NT Books. It’s rather odd that your friends follow a group that rejects all the NT Books.

They may claim that the OT was written for Jews. But it was written for Jews in order to point them toward Christ. These very Jews that rejected Christ are now rejecting the very books that point them toward Christ!

Interesting.
 
How can I answer someone who believes that the Book of Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) in the Old Testament is a “devotional book read in churches written sometime pre-middle ages and put in the Bible by the Catholic Church”, implying that it was not part of the original canon of Scripture and at any rate, is not legitimately a book of Scripture?
Easy…tell them that it existed as part of The Canon that Jesus used…The Septugaint (which existed a couple hundred years before Jesus was born).

Also tell them that because Jesus quoted from them,
they are Scripture.
 
How can I answer someone who believes that the Book of Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) in the Old Testament is a “devotional book read in churches written sometime pre-middle ages and put in the Bible by the Catholic Church”, implying that it was not part of the original canon of Scripture and at any rate, is not legitimately a book of Scripture?
When Yagael Yadin excavated at Masada (which fell to the Romans in 73 AD), he found fragments of the Book of Sirach in Hebrew.
 
When Yagael Yadin excavated at Masada (which fell to the Romans in 73 AD), he found fragments of the Book of Sirach in Hebrew.
Every book that is found in the universal Christian Bible is found with The Dead Sea Scrolls.

Let us remember that no Christian bible with only 66(6) books existed before the 16th century.

The Protestants did to the Christian Bible,
what the Protestants did to the Christian Bible.

They removed what they needed to to establish their newer beliefs that needed to have scripture yield to them
(in the Pharisees case, it was the dissimilation of Jesus being The Messiah, for the Protestants, it was their dissimilation of The Catholic Church being The Church started by Jesus).
 
Thank you all so much! This will definitely be helpful.
Saint Dymphna…love her.

Her story is beautiful.

And good luck.

(The Book of Sirach changed my life and I love it. Reading it, I see all of Jesus’ teachings there and a good chunk of The Lords’ Prayer in one section)
 
How can I answer someone who believes that the Book of Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) in the Old Testament is a “devotional book read in churches written sometime pre-middle ages and put in the Bible by the Catholic Church”, implying that it was not part of the original canon of Scripture and at any rate, is not legitimately a book of Scripture?
The Book of Sirach is an integral part of some of the earliest extant Christian Bibles, including the Codex Vaticanus, from about A.D. 350, and the Codex Alexandrinus, from about A.D. 400.
 
The Book of Sirach is an integral part of some of the earliest extant Christian Bibles, including the Codex Vaticanus, from about A.D. 350, and the Codex Alexandrinus, from about A.D. 400.
I’d add that according to J. P. Holding, head of Tekton Apologetics Ministries and personally affiliated with the Souther Baptist Church, describes Sirach as “…considered the most highly esteemed of the apocryphal literature. It contains nothing in the way of absurdities, but was clearly written around 190-180 BC” (tektonics.org/lp/otcanon.html#otapoc)).

More information on the Apocryphal texts can be found in Holding’s article The Formation of the OT Canon.
 
“…considered the most highly esteemed of the apocryphal literature. It contains nothing in the way of absurdities, but was clearly written around 190-180 BC”
.

Still, it just doesn’t sound kosher…"…considered the most highly esteemed of the apocryphal literature."

How can one highly esteem something that they dont’ believe is canonical?

This is venerating human text then.

I for one know it’s scripture since Jesus was taught from it and quoted from it extensively, but Protestants aren’t allowed to know that fact and since their not allowed to read it, they’ll never know or see how many of Jesus’ teachings come from Sirach (not to mention that the books tranlated name literally is “The Wisdom of Jesus” [not Christ Jesus, just Jesus]).
 
Thank you, Wolseley–very helpful info!

2nd Gen: I’d love to hear your story about how Sirach changed your life.
 
Still, it just doesn’t sound kosher…"…considered the most highly esteemed of the apocryphal literature."
How can one highly esteem something that they dont’ believe is canonical?
I think he discusses that somewhere else in the article. Also, you could e-mail him that question. His e-mail is lnked on the main page of Tekton Apologetics Ministries (‘Contact Us’).

If I had to hazard a guess, I’d say Holding is speaking from a literary/academic standpoint, as well as perhaps comparing the teachings of Sirach to those of the definitive OT/NT Canon. But again, read the rest of the article and, if you still have a question, e-mail him.

BTW- does anyone know where I can find an online copy of the Apocrypha?
 
Thank you, Wolseley–very helpful info!

2nd Gen: I’d love to hear your story about how Sirach changed your life.
In my early 20’s, just when I had become “edumacated” and felt this rush of worldly wisdom from school and all these new enlightments I was experiencing, I came to a point that with all my secular and worldly success, I felt empty. I had of course stopped going to Church as soon as I was out of my mother’s grasp in my late teens.

Anyway, during a particularly spiritually painful night, I picked up a Catholic version of The Good News Bible that my Mom had left before she moved to Puerto Rico. It was late at night, about 11ish.

I came across Sirach and just began reading. And reading. And reading. I didn’t stop until the sun came up.

My whole outlook on life changed. I literally saw myself in those words, especially in the personal flaws Sirach speaks on. I was basically forced to confront myself and look in the spiritual mirror.

I wept that night and began my reversion back to Christianity. First, it took me a few years just to humble myself to allow God back into my life. Or I should say, that no matter what I did, He was always there. I had to acknowledge that I needed Him.

One night, I began praying and crying and crying and praying. I ended up shredding my shirt and taking off all of my clothes and yelling to God to take me, body, mind and soul as I came into this world, naked. I fell to the floor in tears and fell to sleep.

The next day, I began to live a much more pious life, I let go of the vanity and pride which had me so imprisoned spiritually and internally. I let go of materialism, of my carnal nature and sought to live a quiet life.

And Sirach was what set me off. I use that book as the guide for how I should act. I had been reading self help books up until that point but realized that they had all plagerized Sirach and this work was written thousands of years ago.

It scared the “hell” out of me literally.

By the end of my 20’s, I was on my way back to Catholicism. Once my personal studies revealed secular truths that matched scripture, I knew that in being a Christian, I had to be a Catholic. I was born a cradle Catholic…I just needed to bring my “prodigal” self back home.

At 30, I did my confirmation with tears in my eyes.

My life changed even more since then. It’s true that once a person is confirmed in The Faith, The Holy Spirit occupies you even against your will…I believe that the vow of one’s Confirmation overrides the negative human freedoms we have. It’s like giving God permission to take over when you’re steering the ship in the wrong direction.

I’m not saying that I’ve been a saint since then, but I can honestly say that if it wasn’t for my humbling myself to God, I wouldn’t be alive today.

Sirach made me do the right things and God rewarded according to my deeds and that encouraged me to continue the lessons I learned in Sirach and God continued to bless me.

When I hear Jesus speaking in The Gospels, I see Sirach.

I feel sorry for those who allow men to tell them what they can and cannot believe is God’s Word based on human reasoning.

It’s like they dont’ trust God to protect them from being misindoctrinated. Their faith is in man (in their own interpretation) and not in God.

But thank God He saved me from myself.

Amen.
 
BTW- does anyone know where I can find an online copy of the Apocrypha?
Can’t help you there buddy, but I can show you where you can find The Holy Bible with 73 books! (tongue in cheek! LOL!)

Seriously though, you’ll find them below with the 2nd link giving a nice rebuttal to Protestant reasons why they don’t accept The Deuterocanonical Books.

drbo.org/

st-takla.org/pub_Deuterocanon/Deuterocanon-Apocrypha_El-Asfar_El-Kanoneya_El-Tanya__0-index.html

Good reading.

🙂
 
In my early 20’s, just when I had become “edumacated” and felt this rush of worldly wisdom from school and all these new enlightments I was experiencing, I came to a point that with all my secular and worldly success, I felt empty. I had of course stopped going to Church as soon as I was out of my mother’s grasp in my late teens.
Anyway, during a particularly spiritually painful night, I picked up a Catholic version of The Good News Bible that my Mom had left before she moved to Puerto Rico. It was late at night, about 11ish.
I came across Sirach and just began reading. And reading. And reading. I didn’t stop until the sun came up.
My whole outlook on life changed. I literally saw myself in those words, especially in the personal flaws Sirach speaks on. I was basically forced to confront myself and look in the spiritual mirror.
I wept that night and began my reversion back to Christianity. First, it took me a few years just to humble myself to allow God back into my life. Or I should say, that no matter what I did, He was always there. I had to acknowledge that I needed Him.
One night, I began praying and crying and crying and praying. I ended up shredding my shirt and taking off all of my clothes and yelling to God to take me, body, mind and soul as I came into this world, naked. I fell to the floor in tears and fell to sleep.
The next day, I began to live a much more pious life, I let go of the vanity and pride which had me so imprisoned spiritually and internally. I let go of materialism, of my carnal nature and sought to live a quiet life.
And Sirach was what set me off. I use that book as the guide for how I should act. I had been reading self help books up until that point but realized that they had all plagerized Sirach and this work was written thousands of years ago.
It scared the “hell” out of me literally.
By the end of my 20’s, I was on my way back to Catholicism. Once my personal studies revealed secular truths that matched scripture, I knew that in being a Christian, I had to be a Catholic. I was born a cradle Catholic…I just needed to bring my “prodigal” self back home.
At 30, I did my confirmation with tears in my eyes.
My life changed even more since then. It’s true that once a person is confirmed in The Faith, The Holy Spirit occupies you even against your will…I believe that the vow of one’s Confirmation overrides the negative human freedoms we have. It’s like giving God permission to take over when you’re steering the ship in the wrong direction.
I’m not saying that I’ve been a saint since then, but I can honestly say that if it wasn’t for my humbling myself to God, I wouldn’t be alive today.
Sirach made me do the right things and God rewarded according to my deeds and that encouraged me to continue the lessons I learned in Sirach and God continued to bless me.
When I hear Jesus speaking in The Gospels, I see Sirach.
I feel sorry for those who allow men to tell them what they can and cannot believe is God’s Word based on human reasoning.
It’s like they dont’ trust God to protect them from being misindoctrinated. Their faith is in man (in their own interpretation) and not in God.
But thank God He saved me from myself.
That’s a pretty amazing testimony. 👍

Just to clarify something, whether Sirach is a part of the definitive canon or not, I do not want to try to limit God by saying that God can or cannot work through Scripture or anything else. After all, He reached Moses through a burning bush, reached Jonah through a giant sea creature and reached David while the future King of Israel was tending sheep.

For me, I believe God reached me through the Left Behind series (I say ‘believe’ because I do not want to speak for God or claim things that may not be true). I believe He did reach out to me here because it wasn’t until reading LB (and watching 700 Club and coming to a basic understanding of the Messianic Prophecies) and truly understanding that there is a Hell and that, whatever it is like, it is bad place (worse than Heaven we can at least say) and that I need Salvation. I admit that the method of my coming to Salvation (mixed with OCD/Scrupulosity) has led to a ‘fear of Hell’-based faith, which I believe, Scripturally, is not the ideal form of faith, but as a friend of mine put it, [It’s better to get to Heaven in third-class, than Hell in first-class].
 
That’s a pretty amazing testimony. 👍

Just to clarify something, whether Sirach is a part of the definitive canon or not, I do not want to try to limit God by saying that God can or cannot work through Scripture or anything else. After all, He reached Moses through a burning bush, reached Jonah through a giant sea creature and reached David while the future King of Israel was tending sheep.

For me, I believe God reached me through the Left Behind series (I say ‘believe’ because I do not want to speak for God or claim things that may not be true). I believe He did reach out to me here because it wasn’t until reading LB (and watching 700 Club and coming to a basic understanding of the Messianic Prophecies) and truly understanding that there is a Hell and that, whatever it is like, it is bad place (worse than Heaven we can at least say) and that I need Salvation. I admit that the method of my coming to Salvation (mixed with OCD/Scrupulosity) has led to a ‘fear of Hell’-based faith, which I believe, Scripturally, is not the ideal form of faith, but as a friend of mine put it, [It’s better to get to Heaven in third-class, than Hell in first-class].
I agree wholeheartedly that God uses different ways to reach us hard headed folk. I believe that if a book series as you defined led you to a closer relatioinship with God and brought you into communion with Him, who am I a mere mortal to argue that?

Jesus said it clearly with the tree/fruits comparison.

If the tree bears good fruit, then it is a good tree. It’s a safeguard from being misled.

Think about it, before Protestants removed books from The Word of God, that Bible brought Christanity to the world.

The arrogance of man is that they think that they could “correct” The Word of God. If it needed to be corrected, then it wasn’t The Word of God after all for His Word is inerrant.

Besides all that, any one reads those books removed all teach Catholic Doctrine. When a Protestant removes books from The Bible that all have the same thing in common (Catholic Docrtine) what does that tell the intelligent-think-for-themselves Christian?
 
In my early 20’s, just when I had become “edumacated” and felt this rush of worldly wisdom from school and all these new enlightments I was experiencing, I came to a point that with all my secular and worldly success, I felt empty. I had of course stopped going to Church as soon as I was out of my mother’s grasp in my late teens.

Anyway, during a particularly spiritually painful night, I picked up a Catholic version of The Good News Bible that my Mom had left before she moved to Puerto Rico. It was late at night, about 11ish.

I came across Sirach and just began reading. And reading. And reading. I didn’t stop until the sun came up.

My whole outlook on life changed. I literally saw myself in those words, especially in the personal flaws Sirach speaks on. I was basically forced to confront myself and look in the spiritual mirror.

I wept that night and began my reversion back to Christianity. First, it took me a few years just to humble myself to allow God back into my life. Or I should say, that no matter what I did, He was always there. I had to acknowledge that I needed Him.

One night, I began praying and crying and crying and praying. I ended up shredding my shirt and taking off all of my clothes and yelling to God to take me, body, mind and soul as I came into this world, naked. I fell to the floor in tears and fell to sleep.

The next day, I began to live a much more pious life, I let go of the vanity and pride which had me so imprisoned spiritually and internally. I let go of materialism, of my carnal nature and sought to live a quiet life.

And Sirach was what set me off. I use that book as the guide for how I should act. I had been reading self help books up until that point but realized that they had all plagerized Sirach and this work was written thousands of years ago.

It scared the “hell” out of me literally.

By the end of my 20’s, I was on my way back to Catholicism. Once my personal studies revealed secular truths that matched scripture, I knew that in being a Christian, I had to be a Catholic. I was born a cradle Catholic…I just needed to bring my “prodigal” self back home.

At 30, I did my confirmation with tears in my eyes.

My life changed even more since then. It’s true that once a person is confirmed in The Faith, The Holy Spirit occupies you even against your will…I believe that the vow of one’s Confirmation overrides the negative human freedoms we have. It’s like giving God permission to take over when you’re steering the ship in the wrong direction.

I’m not saying that I’ve been a saint since then, but I can honestly say that if it wasn’t for my humbling myself to God, I wouldn’t be alive today.

Sirach made me do the right things and God rewarded according to my deeds and that encouraged me to continue the lessons I learned in Sirach and God continued to bless me.

When I hear Jesus speaking in The Gospels, I see Sirach.

I feel sorry for those who allow men to tell them what they can and cannot believe is God’s Word based on human reasoning.

It’s like they dont’ trust God to protect them from being misindoctrinated. Their faith is in man (in their own interpretation) and not in God.

But thank God He saved me from myself.

Amen.
2nd Gen, wonderful! 👍

Sirach is one of my favorite books in the OT, and when I was young, it actually helped me form my values. I can even say that it prepared me in reading the Gospels. Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21. Check out my sig.
 
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