Legitimately saying a Mass

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If a priest commits a mortal sin and does not confess it but goes on to say Mass, is it a legitimate Mass? When he blesses the water on the altar, is it really blessed? Has he committed sacrilege by saying the Mass and/or receiving communion? How does it affect the parishioners who attended and received communion? Thank you.
 
If a priest commits a mortal sin and does not confess it but goes on to say Mass, is it a legitimate Mass? When he blesses the water on the altar, is it really blessed? Has he committed sacrilege by saying the Mass and/or receiving communion? How does it affect the parishioners who attended and received communion? Thank you.
The answer is that celebrating Mass with an unconfessed mortal sin is a further sin on the priest’s part; however, it has absolutely no effect on the validity of the Mass or the blessings, and hence absolutely no effect on the parishioners. Although we generally say, “The priest blessed this water,” or “The priest says Mass,” in fact all the blessings and graces of the Mass are exclusively the work of God. God works through his priest, but neither he, nor his graces, can be tainted in any way by the unworthiness of the priest himself.
 
If a priest commits a mortal sin and does not confess it but goes on to say Mass, is it a legitimate Mass? When he blesses the water on the altar, is it really blessed?
Yes it it is definitely valid Mass and the water is really blessed. This was settled (as I understand it) in the third century in response to a heresy called Novatianism. This heresy said (among other things) that people who had been baptized by heretics or schismatics should be re-baptized, but it was determined that it was not necessary to do that as the holiness or beliefs of the minister were not relevant as long as the form and matter were correct.
How does it affect the parishioners who attended and received communion? Thank you.
There is no effect on the parishoners. If you think about it, how could we ever know that any sacrament was valid, unless that were true? How could you know whether you were (e.g.) married? That’s why the sacraments are valid regardless of the spiritual health of the minister of them.

So don’t worry about that, except to pray for the priest. The devil attacks priests more ferociously than most of us, so they need extra prayers.

–Jen
 
There is no effect on the parishoners. If you think about it, how could we ever know that any sacrament was valid, unless that were true? How could you know whether you were (e.g.) married? That’s why the sacraments are valid regardless of the spiritual health of the minister of them.
Close; however, I’m not sure this consequentialist view is exactly the right way to look at it. That is to say, the Church does not tell us, “Well, it would be awkward and tough to manage if we said that priests in a state of sin couldn’t carry out the sacraments, so I guess we’ll go ahead and say that they can to make things easier on everybody.” I’m sure that’s not what you meant, but it’s helpful to be clear that the source of the teaching is not convenience, but spiritual truth.
 
So, I suppose that other sacraments performed are equally valid (baptisms, confessions, extreme unctions, marriages, etc) because they are “exclusively the work of God” (to quote Mark Thompson). Now, for him to engage in these sacraments in his condition, are they mortal or venial sins?
 
Close; however, I’m not sure this consequentialist view is exactly the right way to look at it. That is to say, the Church does not tell us, “Well, it would be awkward and tough to manage if we said that priests in a state of sin couldn’t carry out the sacraments, so I guess we’ll go ahead and say that they can to make things easier on everybody.” I’m sure that’s not what you meant, but it’s helpful to be clear that the source of the teaching is not convenience, but spiritual truth.
Quite true. I wasn’t so much saying that it was why the Church did it, but more as proof of the Wisdom of God. God has decreed that the sacraments should be valid because the power of them comes from Him through the Church (e.g. 2 Cor 4:7: “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendant power belongs to God and not to us.”)

A consequence of this is that it is possible to know whether you have received a sacrament or not, which would otherwise be impossible, since you can’t possibly know if another person is in a state of mortal sin. (You can know about the grave matter, and possibly the full knowledge, but not the full consent of the will.)

Thanks for the correction. I wouldn’t have liked to leave the impression that it was just something the Church decided to be practical, rather than a natural consequence of the way God has ordered the sacraments and the action of the Church.

–Jen
 
If a priest commits a mortal sin and does not confess it but goes on to say Mass, is it a legitimate Mass? When he blesses the water on the altar, is it really blessed? Has he committed sacrilege by saying the Mass and/or receiving communion? How does it affect the parishioners who attended and received communion? Thank you.
My priest had a saying:

“When Peter baptizes, Christ baptizes. When Paul baptizes, Christ baptizes. When Judas baptizes . . . Christ baptizes.”

Hence, priests are merely a vessel that the one and only High Priest works though. Catholics have no priest but Christ.
 
So, I suppose that other sacraments performed are equally valid (baptisms, confessions, extreme unctions, marriages, etc) because they are “exclusively the work of God” (to quote Mark Thompson). Now, for him to engage in these sacraments in his condition, are they mortal or venial sins?
As I mentioned above, it is not possible to know whether another person has committed a mortal sin or not (nor is the state of someone else’s soul any of our business, although if their actions are public and are causing scandal the Church must deal with them). This is because it is difficult to know whether the person has full knowledge of the gravity of the sin, and impossible to know whether they have had the full consent of the will.

So I suppose what you are really asking is, “Would being minister of a sacrament while in a state of mortal sin be grave matter or not?” I am not an expert, but I think it would be grave matter. However, that would not apply to marriage, because technically the priest is just a witness, and the ministers of the sacrament are the spouses.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge could give a more definitive answer.

–Jen
 
I’m not sure in every case that the OP asks about. I know, for instance, that priests of the SSPX cannot validly hear confessions and give absolution except in danger of death, and I’m not sure whether they can validly conduct a marriage, perform anointing of the sick, etc. However, that does not have to do with sinfulness, but rather with the irregularity of their status in the Church.

May I ask, are all these questions ultimately about clergy sex abuse? We had a thread about that a while ago; I guess the theory is, “Any church that says a pedophile can validly give blessings and perform the Sacraments is not a church I want to belong to.” I think WetCatechumen’s priest’s saying, “When Judas baptizes . . . Christ baptizes” speaks to that, and my apologies if that’s not really the issue you’re getting at. If you’re really worried about, say, whether you ought to get a sick relative re-anointed, hopefully someone with a deeper canonical knowledge will answer.
 
Yes, I began this thread with clergy sex abuse in mind (although I didn’t know if this was a sore topic here), and more specifically, if the priests did not confess these sins (and it seems some/many didn’t), where this “chain reaction” of sin had led them and who they affected.

Even more to the point, I also have concerns about their superiors and how much sin beyond the abuse itself that their superiors later had to “absolve” (proper term?), when the abuse was uncovered.

And just so folks here don’t think I’m being hypothetical or unfamiliar about this topic, I am a former Catholic who had been an altar boy in Massachusetts for five years and served under two priests who the church later publicly admitted were sex abusers.
 
Sin is sin. Yes, for these priests who abused to keep on saying Mass and offering the sacraments while in mortal sin was compounding their sin, it was not in any way ‘invalidating the sacraments.’

People going to Masses said by these priests were not receiving a ‘lesser’ Mass than those going to Masses said by innocent priests. People receiving communion from these sinful priests were not receiving an ‘invalid Eucharist’ while those receiving communion from innocent priests were getting a ‘real Eucharist.’

I hope that helps you to understand. The breaking of trust in the relationships between abusive priests and those they abused, and those they served without abuse, and even those who now have read about their evil deeds, is indeed scandalous and sinful and hurtful but it does not ‘invalidate’ their priestly functions.
 
Yes, I began this thread with clergy sex abuse in mind (although I didn’t know if this was a sore topic here), and more specifically, if the priests did not confess these sins (and it seems some/many didn’t), where this “chain reaction” of sin had led them and who they affected.

Even more to the point, I also have concerns about their superiors and how much sin beyond the abuse itself that their superiors later had to “absolve” (proper term?), when the abuse was uncovered.

And just so folks here don’t think I’m being hypothetical or unfamiliar about this topic, I am a former Catholic who had been an altar boy in Massachusetts for five years and served under two priests who the church later publicly admitted were sex abusers.
Sorry to hear that, Patnos. I’m sure it’s horrible to find out something like that about priests you respected. I only asked if the sex abuse scandal was what what you were getting at because I find it easier to talk when you know that you’re both really talking about the same thing.

As to whether there’s a “chain reaction” of sin, the answer is that there’s not. I would obviously never want to receive the Eucharist from an abusive priest, but I guess I’d rather do that than not receive the Eucharist at all. The grace of the Sacraments transcends humanity. Now, I suppose that’s fine for me to say since I don’t know any abusive priests, but I would hope that if I were in another position God would grant me the strength to keep my eyes focused on Him and overlook anything else that tries to stand in the way of my relationship with Him.

Is that easy to do? I’m sure it’s not, which is why a lot of people have left the Church over the abuse scandals. That’s where the elements of rationalization come in: “I didn’t leave the Church, the Church left me,” or, “Any church that doesn’t say that a pedophile priests sacraments are invalid can’t be the church God intended.” It’s completely understandable why people would feel this way, just as its understandable why people in Martin Luther’s day would think that a Church rife with religious abuses couldn’t be God’s Church. The theological answers are the same in both cases, however.

If you have specific questions about how the Church handles the confessions and absolution of priests who have committed abuse, I can’t really answer that, although I do know that God can and does forgive even the most heinous abuse.
 
Thanks everyone.

“Chain reaction” was an ambiguous choice of words by me. I mostly meant the “compounding” of sin upon the clergy himself, but it could have extended to others. Let’s say that he sinned, didn’t confess it, took communion, etc. Wow! We were told that taking communion without confessing was a no-no.

Actually, the rift between the church and me began when they changed the church rules in the 60’s based on the Second Vatican Council. There I was, a little kid, and I’m saying to myself, “How can the rules change? They’re supposed to be permanent.” Funny enough, had they stayed the course and kept the rules such as “No meat on Friday,” etc, I probably would have survived being Catholic into adulthood.
 
If a priest commits a mortal sin and does not confess it but goes on to say Mass, is it a legitimate Mass? When he blesses the water on the altar, is it really blessed? Has he committed sacrilege by saying the Mass and/or receiving communion? How does it affect the parishioners who attended and received communion? Thank you.
Yes it is. It was an old heresy called Donatism that claimed that the Priest had to be holy for the Mass (or any Sacrament) to be efficacious. But, the Church teaches that the efficaciousness of a Sacrament is independent of the human minister because Christ is the primary minister. Thus, the Sacraments work “ex opera operato”, by virtue of themselves.
 
Thanks everyone.

“Chain reaction” was an ambiguous choice of words by me. I mostly meant the “compounding” of sin upon the clergy himself, but it could have extended to others. Let’s say that he sinned, didn’t confess it, took communion, etc. Wow! We were told that taking communion without confessing was a no-no.
Yes, it would be a compounding of sin on the priest’s part. But it would not “extend to others,” except in conceivable cases where, for instance, you encouraged the priest to say Mass without confessing his sins or something like that. That’s really just a particular application of ordinary Church teaching, however. I wouldn’t deliberately choose a sinful, pedophile barber if there was one next door that I knew was holy and pious, but if I just walk into a barbershop to get my hair cut, (1) it’s definitely a haircut, (2) I have not been contaminated with any sinfulness, and (3) the pedophile barber should have his license revoked and be sent to jail. That’s not to trivialize the Sacrament,
Actually, the rift between the church and me began when they changed the church rules in the 60’s based on the Second Vatican Council. There I was, a little kid, and I’m saying to myself, “How can the rules change? They’re supposed to be permanent.” Funny enough, had they stayed the course and kept the rules such as “No meat on Friday,” etc, I probably would have survived being Catholic into adulthood.
That’s really unfortunate – and obviously ironic in a bad way. Hopefully your presence on this board and your openness to asking questions means good things.

You’re probably already aware that there’s a difference between the Church’s teachings on matters of faith and morals on the one hand, and its practices and disciplines on the other hand. This Church asks for different things in the lives of the faithful (1) in the catacombs of Rome in 150 AD, (2) in France during the Plague in the 1300s, (3) in the Brazilian jungle in 1910, and (4) in a first-world country in 2010.

It may also surprise you to learn – it surprises most people – that the Church didn’t quite “do away with the no-meat-on-Friday penance”. They retained the call for a penitential Friday practice, but no longer specified that in must be in the form of abstaining from meat. This makes some sense in a modern world in which meat is more likely to be a staple of the diet, versus even 100 years ago when it was much more of a luxury.

The Protestants have been trying for four centuries to find any possible way to claim that Rome’s dogmatic teaching on an issue of faith or morals. They’ve come up with some instances of changes in wording or emphasis, a bunch of changes in non-dogmatic matters, a few things that aren’t changes at all but look like them if you squint your eyes really hard, a whole slew of confusions caused by selectively quoting or mistranslating old documents, and not much else.

Christ was divine, but walked the earth as a man. In a similar way, the Church, which is called the Body of Christ, is divinely instituted, but exists in the world. Some people think that because the Church is in the world, it must constantly change in all respects to keep pace with the world. Others think that because it is divinely instituted, nothing about it can ever change. Both of those are complete errors, though.

As to the changes that took place in the 1960s and 1970s, in my view at least, what happened is that things had been largely frozen in place for 400 years, so when the door was opened to change there was a lot that had to come out at once. Even more so (to shift metaphors), like a rubber band that’s been stretched taut, when you let go it will not just fall loose but will bounce too far the other way. So, four centuries after Trent, there were definitely changes that needed to be made to the Mass. Probably what we should have wound up with was something that looked maybe 60% like the old Mass and 40% like the new Mass, at least as practiced in most of your average parishes. So now, a few decades on, were seeing a shift back in the other direction: increased use of Gregorian chant and Latin, more young people starting to receive Communion on the tongue and young women wearing veils to Mass, even a return to older styles of vestments for the priests.

All that is perfectly natural. Or, rather, it’s natural for things like the manner of worship to change as the centuries go past; and if you hold up that process for a while, it’s natural to have a period of tumult and correction as you straighten it out. We just happen to be living through that. However, none of the fundamentals of the faith has changed. There are disagreements about how to express those fundamentals through the liturgy of the Mass, how to foster them through education and penitential practices, and so on. And there are people who are just outright dissenters, like priests who call from the pulpit for the ordination of women. But those things have always been the case. Each generation thinks they’re experiencing them for the first time, and perhaps we’re experiencing them more than has happened in a couple of centuries, maybe since the French Revolution. But the Church will still be here in 10 years, 100 years, 10,000 years, unless Christ returns first. That’s one of the promises he made to us when he gave us the gift of the Church.
 
Yes, it would be a compounding of sin on the priest’s part. …]
Wow, great post. I would just like to add that another reason for getting rid of the “no meat on Fridays” absolute rule, and making it instead an option that one can choose, is that there are also a lot of vegetarians out there, or people who only eat fish (not meat) for health reasons, and they should be given the opportunity to have penitential practices that have some meaning for them. These people can substitute giving up something else, or instead having some set special period of prayer or Scripture reading that is specific to Fridays, so that their penitential practice helps them to grow more spiritually.

The (perhaps unintended and IMO unfortunate) consequence of this is that, in countries like the US and the UK where Catholics are in a minority, we have lost a cultural bond between us as Catholics. In addition, thanks to the “spirit of Vatican II” (no relation to the actual words of Vatican II), many Catholic adults don’t even know that we are still supposed to engage in some sort of penitential practice on Fridays. I didn’t know anything about it until I came back to the Church after being away, and my father (a lifelong and very committed Catholic) didn’t know about it until I told him. On the plus side, this appears to be turning around a good bit.

Also, on the encouraging side, I was told that in general, the period after any council is a period of more or less confusion. And while 40 years seems to us like a long time to be confused, in the history of the Church it is just a moment.

–Jen
 
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