Length of homilies

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Does anyone have confirmation of the “Vatican” suggestion of 8 minutes? I’d be surprised to find that to be true.
The OP addressed that in a follow-up post:
I figured I should quote a source for the “vatican recommends” statement. I can’t find right now the original article I saw, just plenty of headlines saying “Vatican recommends”, but upon reading the article more closely, it is more like “Vatican official recommends”. Most articles and quotes were in conjunction with the release of this document: onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/HomileticDirectory.pdf This document recommends short homilies.

In addition the recommendation for the 8-minute homily came in a book by Archbishop Nikola Eterovic. catholicnewsagency.com/news/homilies_should_be_no_longer_than_eight_minutes_advises_vatican_prelate/

Sorry for being imprecise. :o

But, my question still remains, and is perhaps expanded. This seems to be a more modern phenomenon, unique to our time in history. Great saints and fathers of the Church were known to have preached for an hour or more. This isn’t a Protestant vs. Catholic thing. The fathers of the Church also had Jesus in the Eucharist and I just don’t buy the argument that Protestants preach more because it is all they have. When did we start to expect short homilies and why? Can we not handle more than 8 minutes?
 
We shouldn’t assume that all Protestant preachers are good at what they do. A lot of preachers meander around and you have no idea what the point of the sermon really was.

Also, a lot Protestant churches have the same issues we have with “turnover”. A lot of times, preachers will save their long sermons for the last service because they know they can go on as long as they want. Some people pick what service they want to go to based on how long the sermon’s going to be.

As I don’t have a regular parish at the moment, I really can’t say for sure about a time limit.

However, I find that I get more out of a Catholic homily because it’s short and to the point because there are other things that need to be done at Mass.

I’ve been to a Catholic church in the area where the homilies are pretty long (by Catholic standards) and I’m okay with it, but that’s because Father is a gifted speaker and his homilies are really amazing (and entertaining).
 
I’m not aware of any time limits, although Catholic masses rarely seem to exceed an hour in my experience.

Coming from a Protestant background, I suppose I’d make the following assertions -
  1. The Eucharist is a time consuming part of the service. The Protestants generally don’t have this time set aside, and so preaching (and music) fill the gap. The may have communion from time to time, but it still doesn’t take as long as the Catholic Eucharist.
  2. My old Presbyterian pastor was an excellent speaker. I didn’t time his sermons, but I suppose they generally lasted from 20 to 30 minutes. The main thing is that they’re well prepared. I’ve been in Toastmasters for some time, and the majority of their speeches are 5 to 7 minutes, kept in line with a timer (some pastors could do with a timing light - green, amber and red, with a bell if they keep rambling on, but I’m digressing).
You can say a lot 5 to 7 minutes, provided you’ve prepared well. But even with 20 to 30 minute sermons, he usually kept the service more or less to around an hour. He had to - he had three churches to preach at on Sunday, with an evening service as well in one of them. Our priest has a similar problem.

I remember one of the pastor’s sons saying that “Sundays are always so hectic around our joint. Pops (the pastor) likes to get a bit of a blow (rest) in the afternoon.” It might have been a day of rest for most of the parishioners, but it wasn’t for the pastor.
  1. Protestants sometimes seem to overdo the music, whereas Catholics seem to underdo it, in my humble experience anyway.
  2. The Catholic mass seems to be set for an hour, almost to the minute, whereas the Protestant services often go longer. But provided it’s interesting, most of the people don’t seem to mind staying the extra distance.
 
I think when people (“Vatican officials” or otherwise) offer such recommendations regarding length of time, they are intended to be a helpful, flexible guideline rather than a hard-and-fast rule.

To me, the length of time doesn’t matter too much. Back in college, I could listen to the priests preach there for hours and not be bored. Indeed, one would go on for quite awhile (I never really clocked him). But then a priest at the parish I grew up in would have me fidgeting after three minutes.

We may lament the modern American situation where people are pressed for time with short attention spans, but that is the cultural condition we find ourselves in. I don’t think asking priests to preach 40 minute homilies is going to change that. Anecdotally, I’ve heard that homilies are much longer in places like Africa where Mass will go on for 2 or 3 hours. But there, many people are walking to Mass and basically setting aside their whole day for it. If it was over so soon, they’d be disappointed. 🙂

I guess my background in writing makes me sympathetic to the “less is more” school of thought. I’ve seen a quote (sometimes attributed to Lincoln and sometimes Woodrow Wilson 🤷) that says something to the effect of, “If you need me to speak for five minutes, I need a week to prepare; if you need me to speak for an hour, I’m ready now.” I’m not sure if the quote is authentic, but it does speak to the point that it can be more difficult to craft a good short homily than a longer one.
 
Our parish has five weekend Masses, and I know that others have even more. Our priest aims for the 10-12 minute range, and usually does four of the five Masses. A deacon’s homily is usually a little shorter. I think that if you check the schedules of the large megachurch and mainline Protestant churches you’ll find that they have one or two Sunday services. So if the sermon is the main event and you only have to do it once, you can obviously spend more time on it. Whether or not longer is more valuable depends on your perspective. The Mass in its totality is what is important about Mass. We meet our Lord in all its parts…liturgy, offering, singing, hearing, praying and receiving Him in his fullness.
 
Does anyone have confirmation of the “Vatican” suggestion of 8 minutes? I’d be surprised to find that to be true.
My clarification is in post 9. Vatican document recommends short, Vatican “official” recommends 8 minutes.
 
The homilies where I attend aren’t longer than 4-5 minutes. Usually just a short commentary on the readings and how to apply them in our daily lives, and then move on. Like others have said, I think it’s mainly to fit Mass into the 30-45 minute range, since at longer Masses (on solemnities/ordinations/etc.) the homilies easily go into the 20 minute range.

That being said, it’s still an improvement, because the Orthodox church that I used to attend didn’t have homilies at all. That being said, the standard Sunday service was around 3 hours long, so the Priest could be forgiven for not being able to stand any longer than that.
 
I read a couple articles about this when the recommendation came out. I know at least one of the articles referenced other sources that said the average attention span is about 9 minutes. That’s in line with what I’ve read previously. Considering how often homilies I’ve heard have followed the pattern of “joke/anecdote, brief mention of one of the readings then a ‘punchline’ to tie it all together,” I don’t know that anything more than 8-10 minutes would be advisable. I’m more in favor of the recommendation for priests and deacons to take a public speaking course. I’d also like to hear homilies that actually teach and instruct more often. Our priest gave a great one a few weeks ago and didn’t have to rely on jokes or stories about his childhood (not that our current priest does a lot of that but the basic pattern is so prevalent it’s still surprising to hear a homily that doesn’t follow it). The longer (20+ minutes) homilies I’ve heard don’t have a clear direction and seem to be padded with extra jokes, family stories and shout outs to prominent parishioners.
 
I figured I should quote a source for the “vatican recommends” statement. I can’t find right now the original article I saw, just plenty of headlines saying “Vatican recommends”, but upon reading the article more closely, it is more like “Vatican official recommends”. Most articles and quotes were in conjunction with the release of this document: onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/HomileticDirectory.pdf This document recommends short homilies.

In addition the recommendation for the 8-minute homily came in a book by Archbishop Nikola Eterovic. catholicnewsagency.com/news/homilies_should_be_no_longer_than_eight_minutes_advises_vatican_prelate/

Sorry for being imprecise. :o

But, my question still remains, and is perhaps expanded. This seems to be a more modern phenomenon, unique to our time in history. Great saints and fathers of the Church were known to have preached for an hour or more. This isn’t a Protestant vs. Catholic thing. The fathers of the Church also had Jesus in the Eucharist and I just don’t buy the argument that Protestants preach more because it is all they have. When did we start to expect short homilies and why? Can we not handle more than 8 minutes?
He says eight minutes on the grounds that this is the average amount of time that listeners can concentrate. This does not imply that 8 minutes is a magic number, but that a good homily must keep in mind the expected attention span of the faithful who will be in attendance. That eight minute number will vary depending on the homilist and the faithful who are present. Archbishop Fulton Sheen could talk for 25 minutes and beat out Milton Berle’s variety show on the other channel, so he had a gift for extending the average attention span. As another poster has noted, some other homilists so abuse the attention span that it is practically impossible to listen to them speak without being distracted by the speaker’s poor use of rhetoric. Other homilists have an Amen Pew made up of parishioners under the age of two, and they might learn that they have a lot less than eight minutes to get their points made before the chorus begins to drown them out. 😉 😃
 
I heard a priest say recently that, if a priest can talk for 2 minutes and do it well, that’s far better than talking for ten minutes and doing it badly! It’s not about quantity it’s about quality - to put in another way: it’s important for a priest to know how to begin but it’s also at least as important to know when to stop!

As others have pointed out, one of the differences between us and our protestant brethren is that, for us, the focus of the mass is on Christ in the eucharist. granted, there’s an intrinsic link between the Word spoken and the word made flesh - the two should complement each other. That said, this is also why, for us, the focus of a homily is on the scriptures of the day - breaking open the Word for those who are to receive it. IMHO eight minutes sounds like a reasonable, ballpark figure, but again it’s about quality not quantity.
 
… but upon reading the article more closely, it is more like “Vatican official recommends”. Most articles and quotes were in conjunction with the release of this document: onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/HomileticDirectory.pdf This document recommends short homilies.
Thank you for taking the time to look these up! This document from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments looks very interesting.* I look forward to going through at least some of it.
In addition the recommendation for the 8-minute homily came in a book by Archbishop Nikola Eterovic. catholicnewsagency.com/news/homilies_should_be_no_longer_than_eight_minutes_advises_vatican_prelate/
“Improvisations must be avoided,” the archbishop continues, “since the homily is too serious of a reality to be delivered to the faithful without adequate planning.” Archbishop Eterovic

Several of us seem to agree with Archbishop Eterovic on this point. 🙂
But, my question still remains, and is perhaps expanded. This seems to be a more modern phenomenon, unique to our time in history. Great saints and fathers of the Church were known to have preached for an hour or more. This isn’t a Protestant vs. Catholic thing. The fathers of the Church also had Jesus in the Eucharist and I just don’t buy the argument that Protestants preach more because it is all they have. When did we start to expect short homilies and why? Can we not handle more than 8 minutes?
I imagine we’d have to turn to Fr Taft to know more about how attentive those early faithful were to St John Chrysostom/golden-mouthed, and others. There seems to have actually been a great deal of inattention in those liturgies. I love it on Feasts when instead of the priest or deacon preaching, a homily from one of the Church Fathers is read. I wonder how much these are studied in seminary. Would be a very good thing. I know some Evangelical seminaries do study them.

In any case, as I said before
Protestant and Evangelical… I think that is something we could learn from them, those who are really masters at preaching.
I’m merely guessing here, but I think with some exceptions, Dominicans for example are the Order of Preachers, it would seem that many who enter the Catholic priesthood do so with preaching not at the top of what they thirst to do. The sacraments would seem generally more compelling.

In the East with the set prayers of our Liturgy running about an hour and 30-45 minutes plus a homily there can be the tendency to hold that the “Liturgy IS the catechesis”. After years of hearing the faithful talk it’s clear that while our prayers are catechetical, there is a great deal more that does need to be taught outright, in a well prepared homily, and in adult classes.

In addition to what seems a clearly off the cuff homily, I also don’t like is when the priest starts with a joke, which he’s clearly gotten off some homily prep website, and goes on with more content which likewise seems to have come not from his own encounter with the readings or the Feast day, but from someone else, on line or in some other prepared text.

However, I have found that every time it seems someone indeed has gotten fed by that very homily. God works in mysterious ways!

*Did you happen to notice, babochka, that this was released on the Feast of Sts Peter and Paul, whose Fast we’re in now? 🙂
 
I guess my background in writing makes me sympathetic to the “less is more” school of thought. I’ve seen a quote (sometimes attributed to Lincoln and sometimes Woodrow Wilson 🤷) that says something to the effect of, “If you need me to speak for five minutes, I need a week to prepare; if you need me to speak for an hour, I’m ready now.” I’m not sure if the quote is authentic, but it does speak to the point that it can be more difficult to craft a good short homily than a longer one.
Whether it was Lincoln or Wilson, it looks as though he may have borrowed his idea from Pascal. One of the Provincial Letters, the sixteenth, is half as long again as the others, twelve pages compared with eight. At the end Pascal apologizes for that, explaining that “The only reason why this letter is so long is that I did not have the time to write a shorter one.”
 
Whether it was Lincoln or Wilson, it looks as though he may have borrowed his idea from Pascal. One of the Provincial Letters, the sixteenth, is half as long again as the others, twelve pages compared with eight. At the end Pascal apologizes for that, explaining that “The only reason why this letter is so long is that I did not have the time to write a shorter one.”
😃 I guess the sentiment is a common one. 🙂
 
He says eight minutes on the grounds that this is the average amount of time that listeners can concentrate. This does not imply that 8 minutes is a magic number, but that a good homily must keep in mind the expected attention span of the faithful who will be in attendance. That eight minute number will vary depending on the homilist and the faithful who are present. Archbishop Fulton Sheen could talk for 25 minutes and beat out Milton Berle’s variety show on the other channel, so he had a gift for extending the average attention span. As another poster has noted, some other homilists so abuse the attention span that it is practically impossible to listen to them speak without being distracted by the speaker’s poor use of rhetoric. Other homilists have an Amen Pew made up of parishioners under the age of two, and they might learn that they have a lot less than eight minutes to get their points made before the chorus begins to drown them out. 😉 😃
So perhaps, rather than give the advice to only speak for 8 minutes, the advice should be for priests and deacons to work very hard at improving their preaching skills? Like so many others, I’ve heard some impressive 3-minute homilies. I’ve also heard some amazing 25 minute homilies, and even a few 40 minute sermons in Protestant churches.
 
Perhaps we should take a note from the Byzantine Liturgy, and have the deacon shout “Wisdom! Let us be attentive!” every eight minutes during the homily 😃
 
Perhaps we should take a note from the Byzantine Liturgy, and have the deacon shout “Wisdom! Let us be attentive!” every eight minutes during the homily 😃
Sounds like a good idea. There have certainly been times when I’ve needed to be woken up during a homily.
 
Perhaps we should take a note from the Byzantine Liturgy, and have the deacon shout “Wisdom! Let us be attentive!” every eight minutes during the homily 😃
I could have used that a few weeks ago. Our deacon’s homilies tend to be a little unfocused. This particular week I’d been up the whole night thanks to our daughters each waking up at strategically timed intervals. I got the feeling that for his homily that week he was shooting from the hip. At the very least he hadn’t prepared it well. It was over twenty rambling minutes of jokes, anecdotes and then his interpretation of one of the readings and his opinion on current events. My oldest daughter kept elbowing me when I dozed off. Even our priest seemed put off by it. I’ve been hoping since then that someone would gently suggest a public speaking course to him.
 
Tell that to St. John Chrystostom and St. Ambrose, both of whom were known to have very long homilies. I’m not sure how a long, well-crafted homily takes the focus off of Jesus, any more than a 10 minute homily does

. I’m mostly focused on the “its about all we’re capable of paying attention to” argument. Is that valid?
Chrystostom and Ambrose gave what are called catechetical homilies. They were probably not done at Mass but at catechetical sessions, many of them for catechumens. They mysteries of the Church were broken open for them. Some of the best of Chrystostom’s were his mystological homilies that were preached to the Neophytes following their baptism.
 
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