Jon, this has been dealt with time and time again. I surprised that you haven’t read it. Below is one page of such a discussion between Fr. David and the guy who goes by EvangelCatholic.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=874608&page=4
Not true. What you are posting is untrue, and (at this point) outright deceptive.
- The document does not say what you misrepresent it as saying.
- The document does not speak with any authority to over-turn Catholic doctrine.
Again, you are taking a document that has no teaching authority and trying to claim that that document overturns 500 years of Catholic teaching and practice, including very recent documents that do speak with authority.
Catholics can say that “Lutherans believe it” but cannot agree with the statement itself, that Lutherans actually have a valid Eucharist. It’s a distinction I’ve tried to explain to you over and over again, but you consistently deny.
I can say all day long “he thinks he’s the reincarnation of Napoleon” but that won’t mean that he actually is that.
I could “prove” that the Catholic Church recognizes that Lutheran ecclesial communities do not have Apostolic Succession, and do not have a valid Eucharist. That would be the theological equivalent of “proving” that the sun rises in the morning.
This is the teaching of the Catholic Church
30. The Catholic Church’s teaching on the relationship between priestly ministry and the Eucharist and her teaching on the Eucharistic Sacrifice have both been the subject in recent decades of a fruitful dialogue in the area of ecumenism. We must give thanks to the Blessed Trinity for the significant progress and convergence achieved in this regard, which lead us to hope one day for a full sharing of faith. Nonetheless, the observations of the Council concerning the Ecclesial Communities which arose in the West from the sixteenth century onwards and are separated from the Catholic Church remain fully pertinent: “The Ecclesial Communities separated from us lack that fullness of unity with us which should flow from Baptism, and we believe that especially because of the lack of the sacrament of Orders they have not preserved the genuine and total reality of the Eucharistic mystery. Nevertheless, when they commemorate the Lord’s death and resurrection in the Holy Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and they await his coming in glory”.
Bl. Pope John Paul II, 2003
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…e-euch_en.html
What’s more even your church agrees:
The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (Matt. 24:5, 23-24; Mark 13:6, 21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18, 22, 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ’s Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.
However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic “Anti-Christ” (Dan. 7:8, 11, 20-21, 24-25, 11:36-45; 2 Thess. 2; 1 John 2:18, 4:3; Rev. 17-18) … Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions’ identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person’s heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.
In a footnote, the Commission adds:
To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran Confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God’s guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.
lcms.org/faqs/lcmsviews#pope
Your church’s own statement that the Church’s official dogma will have to change but until then the Papacy (right now in the person of Pope Francis he is an individual person) teaches are that of the Antichrist. When I first read this I thought talk about the mouse that roared! Your church teaches that our doctrine and that of the Lutherans are diametrically opposed to one another. You can shout that the shiny stuff under your tree is the real deal but it is still pyrite.
“Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
Yes, exactly and part of my journey back home includes a Billy Graham crusade on TV. The Lord used him to tell me that I needed to bring my belief in Him from my head to my heart. That was the beginning of my journey around the spiritual world back home.
While I was protestant I read a couple of books by a protestant missionary talking about how it was easier than he thought to preach Christ. Those two books are ETERNITY IN THEIR HEARTS and PEACE CHILD. I number among the people who will not be at all surprised if I learn that Plato is in heaven.
You are being called to Catholic unity.
Annie
