Leprechauns Lutherans and other 16th Century Churches

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Per_Crucem said:
So you’re taking a conversation between two posters and imputing it to Jon, who wasn’t even part of it? You will find that Jon’s views are not coterminus with EvangelCatholic’s on a whole host of issues.
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Its the issue sir the issue
 
Annie39 said:
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I actually don’t think of the Church serving me in at all.  I see it as I am finally home to where I can serve the Lord and eventually share with Him everlasting happiness in heaven. (Baltimore Catechism 3. Why did God make us? God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.) The pastor of one of the Lutheran Churches that I attended in the past recently asked me if I am “being fed” now.  I told him “I’d say that receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and divinity of Jesus Christ on a regular basis is the very definition of being fed spiritually”.
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Many Catholics drift to denominations because they don’t feel “fed” spiritually. I was one.

I understand that Lutherans believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Did you not?
Annie39 said:
I don’t know if you are one of the Lutherans who congregate here who has posted about the Pope being the Anti-Christ as long as he teaches that which the Lutherans believe to be wrong.
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I think if you take into account what Leo X deomonstrated through word and deed, you would find it anti-Christ as well.
Annie39 said:
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I don’t really care what Lutherans think about Catholics.  Not even my friends.
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This does not seem like an attitude oriented toward unity.
Annie39 said:
the Leprechaun story is not meant to incite. In fact I’m floored that that is even suggested. It is meant as food for thought and maybe interesting dialogue.

Annie
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I am not Lutheran, or a Leprechaun, but I could see why Lutherans would take your analogy in a negatie sense.
 
Annie39 said:
Its the issue sir the issue
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No it isn’t. You took someone elses position on the issue and then called Jon deceptive or dishonest based on another poster’s interaction on the forum. Who does that?
 
guanophore said:
I am not Lutheran, or a Leprechaun, but I could see why Lutherans would take your analogy in a negatie sense.
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Just don’t mention unicorns, because frankly, we should avoid bringing the Anglicans into this mess.
 
=Annie39;12219374]Jon, this has been dealt with time and time again. I surprised that you haven’t read it. Below is one page of such a discussion between Fr. David and the guy who goes by EvangelCatholic.
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Here was my response to Fr. David;
While I contend that Cardinal Ratzinger meant something more than Christ’s presence within the community. He was writing to a Lutheran bishop, after all, and this would have appeared almost patronizing. OTOH, I don’t believe that the Cardinal was attempting to draw an equality between our Eucharist and yours, as that would be counter to Catholic teaching, as you’ve said.
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11891086&postcount=53

Regardless of the discussion of how deeply Cardinal Ratzinger intended his comment to be viewed, he certainly did not seem to consider the Lutheran Eucharist as pyrite.
You are being called to Catholic unity.
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Pray for the day.

Jon
 
Annie39 said:
I’m not sure what you mean and am not quite sure what reply you expect but when I was a Lutheran I would sometimes attend other protestant churches. I was looking for something. I searched and searched every so often. All of the churches left me empty. I would take my boys with me but was not really thinking of how this would affect them. Not too long after I returned to The Church one of my boys asked me why I go to all of these different churches. I replied by asking him…if someone told you that he had filled a closet with gold in this city and all you had to do was look in closets until you find it you could have the entire stash, how many closets would you search before you stopped? He then asked “and have you found that closet?” I replied yes. He looked at me said “cool” then left the room.
I
have often told this story but I think that the Leprechaun story is a little better in honor of me ancestors.

Annie
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I really don’t want to come off as insulting in any way, but in my opinion, even though you did find the Truth, the way you went about it is somewhat dangerous.

To see what I mean, read “The Screwtape Letters” and look particularly at Letter 16.

I’m presuming that, even if you haven’t read this wonderful book, you’re aware of its premise: it is a series of instructional letters from a “Senior Demon” Screwtape to his nephew Wormwood, a “Junior Tempter”, helping him in his task to lead his “patient” to hell.

MY DEAR WORMWOOD,

You mentioned casually in your last letter that the patient has continued to attend one church, and one only, since he was converted, and that he is not wholly pleased with it. May I ask what you are about? Why have I no report on the causes of his fidelity to the parish church? Do you realise that unless it is due to indifference it is a very bad thing? Surely you know that if a man can’t be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the neighbourhood looking for the church that “suits” him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches.

The reasons are obvious. In the first place the parochial organisation should always be attacked, because, being a unity of place and not of likings, it brings people of different classes and psychology together in the kind of unity the Enemy desires. The congregational principle, on the other hand, makes each church into a kind of club, and finally, if all goes well, into a coterie or faction. In the second place, the search for a “suitable” church makes the man a critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil.

“The Enemy” from Screwtape’s point of view, of course, being God.

Even though (again IMO) you went about it the wrong way, I feel you were graced by God in finding the Church that Jesus started. God takes our mistakes and flaws and sins and makes good out of 'em.

Sola Gratia!
 
I am amazed at how we continue to see a streak of nastiness and condecension underlying a number of threads

I am glad you are happy in the Roman Catholic Church-good for you-other of us are happy in other denominations

a bad analogy -to start
 
Annie39 said:
That Irish priest is a very wise man. But I don’t understand what point you are trying to make here about trolls. And I never see trolls around St. Patrick’s day.
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No, but they are prolific on July 31st, for some reason.
 
Annie39 said:
In ancient Irish myths, the leprechaun guards a hidden pot of gold which humans try to find; and if a person catches one, so the Irish say, he can be forced to reveal where it is by holding him until he reveals its whereabouts. It happened one day so one version of the story goes. A man captured a Leprechaun by hiding behind a tree in a forest until the wee one strolled by and the man threw a net around him. The man would not let him go until he revealed under which tree the treasure was hidden the Leprechaun obliged. The man had a shovel and used it to bury the gold under the tree. He then tied a red ribbon to the tree so that when he returned with a wheel barrow he would be able to distinguish which tree it was that had the deposit of gold. The following day he returned with the wheel barrow only to discover that the Leprechaun had tied identical red ribbons on every tree in the forest. The trees appeared to be identical but only one was the tree which had the treasure.

I have always interpreted that to be an Irish folk tale about the farmer in a parable in the Bible. The farmer (the man in the folk tale) who sows good seed (the first red ribbon) and the evil one (the Leprechaun) ties an (identical red ribbons) the bad seed. Of course the folk tale is not exact because when the Lord (represented by the man) surveys all the “trees” He has no doubt wherein lay the treasure that he left (deposit of faith). Those bad ribbons are like the word “Catholic” when used outside of the True faith. There is a True Faith and if one seeks with all of his heart, He will find it. Who ever seeks finds. Sometimes it takes a little work.

Annie
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My Irish husband (born in Ireland) says that this is a 19th century construct, designed to make Irish people appear stupid. I would not put a lot of thought into Leprechauns or fairies.
Nothing to do with any Bible story.
 
Ok, we’ve talked about Leprechauns, and trolls, but not goblins. Does anyone else see a resemblance here? 😛
 
pianistclare said:
My Irish husband (born in Ireland) says that this is a 19th century construct, designed to make Irish people appear stupid. I would not put a lot of thought into Leprechauns or fairies.
Nothing to do with any Bible story.
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I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, thank you. However there are Irish folks (living in Ireland now) who would beg to differ. Fairies are part of the folklore of many a European country. Note that others on the thread have posted about them. Leprechauns are but part of this shared myth.
As for having nothing to do with any Bible story I confess that that is from my own imagination. I thought it up so in my world it does have something to do with it. And I think that it works quite well IMHO.

Annie
 
steido01 said:
I’m glad you’ve found a church to serve you in Word and Sacrament. I have too. It’s Lutheran - full of a whole bunch of Evangelical Catholics. But this aside has nothing to do with my original question, so I’ll rephrase and try again: your story and title come off as condescending, Romocentric and, frankly, offensive - to protestants in general and Lutherans in particular. Why do make such a comparison where you know many non-Roman Catholics congregate? It seems like your goal is to incite and instigate, rather than dialogue.
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I too believe that the OP could be taken as provocative, but it doesn’t have to be. There is a lot of truth to the fact that the word “Catholic” has begun to be thrown around to the extent that it begins to loose its meaning. For instance, an “evangelical Catholic” to me means a Catholic who’s ministry is evangelizing. I don’t know of a Church called “The Evangelical Catholic Church”. It seems to me to be an effort to reduce the Catholic Church to just one more ecclesial community among many, one among equals, all who have equal claim to be called “Catholic”, but “Catholic” on their own terms. It actually gives lie to the very term, which implies universal unity.
 
SteveVH said:
I too believe that the OP could be taken as provocative, but it doesn’t have to be. There is a lot of truth to the fact that the word “Catholic” has begun to be thrown around to the extent that it begins to loose its meaning. For instance, an “evangelical Catholic” to me means a Catholic who’s ministry is evangelizing. I don’t know of a Church called “The Evangelical Catholic Church”. It seems to me to be an effort to reduce the Catholic Church to just one more ecclesial community among many, one among equals, all who have equal claim to be called “Catholic”, but “Catholic” on their own terms. It actually gives lie to the very term, which implies universal unity.
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I get your point, Steve. I am just not sure how far we want to push it on who can and cannot use the title, and who we allow to be the arbiter of the title. In every day conversation, I don’t refer to myself as catholic precisely because for lay folks who don’t post to forums all day, that means “Roman Catholic.”

You’re defining Catholic as being universal unity. However, I don’t know if that historically fits the definition. The Athanasian Creed uses the term and doesn’t reference the Pope or the Magisterium, for example. Neither does the Apostles or Nicene Creed. The Orthodox call themselves the Orthodox Catholic Church, yet there is no unity there between them and the Latin Patriarch.

Overall, though, I would probably be miffed if you referred to yourself as Lutheran, for the same reason I know why you would be if I called myself Catholic. So it’s all good.
 
Per_Crucem said:
I get your point, Steve. I am just not sure how far we want to push it on who can and cannot use the title, and who we allow to be the arbiter of the title. In every day conversation, I don’t refer to myself as catholic precisely because for lay folks who don’t post to forums all day, that means “Roman Catholic.”

You’re defining Catholic as being universal unity. However, I don’t know if that historically fits the definition. The Athanasian Creed uses the term and doesn’t reference the Pope or the Magisterium, for example. Neither does the Apostles or Nicene Creed. The Orthodox call themselves the Orthodox Catholic Church, yet there is no unity there between them and the Latin Patriarch.

Overall, though, I would probably be miffed if you referred to yourself as Lutheran, for the same reason I know why you would be if I called myself Catholic. So it’s all good.
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Even the term “Roman Catholic” is not correct. But I don’t think, after 2000 years, that we really have to spend much time or brain power defining what the “Catholic Church” means and who has valid claim to that name.

Thanks for your understanding.

God bless.

Steve
 
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