Leprechauns Lutherans and other 16th Century Churches

[Per_Crucem]

Maybe Concordia dust? My bad.

Bwaha. Then they would turn into really grumpy LCMS gnomes

 

[andrewstx]

bwaha. Then they would turn into really grumpy lcms gnomes

:d lol :d

 

[guanophore]

I am just not sure how far we want to push it on who can and cannot use the title, and who we allow to be the arbiter of the title. In every day conversation

This is an interesting comment. I find it curious there is a “we want” and “we allow” at all!

How did it happen that the issue became one that belongs to “we” rather than accepting what was handed down to us from the Apostles?

You’re defining Catholic as being universal unity.

No, this is not anyone here defining it. This is the definition we received from the successors of the Apostles. This is how the Church of the NT is described, and the term is used by the early Church to identify the Body founded by Christ.

However, I don't know if that historically fits the definition. The Athanasian Creed uses the term and doesn't reference the Pope or the Magisterium, for example.

IT was the Pope and the Magesterium that created the creed. They alone were authorized by Christ to do so. You don’t see any references when the term “Trinity” was adopted either.

Neither does the Apostles or Nicene Creed. The Orthodox call themselves the Orthodox Catholic Church, yet there is no unity there between them and the Latin Patriarch.

Yes, all these creeds were created when there was no schism. And despite the schism, we have most things in unity and are only separated by a comparatively miniscule percentage compared to differences we both have with all denominations.

Overall, though, I would probably be miffed if you referred to yourself as Lutheran, for the same reason I know why you would be if I called myself Catholic. So it’s all good.

Words are important, and especially words loaded with theological meaning.

 

[Per_Crucem]

This is an interesting comment. I find it curious there is a “we want” and “we allow” at all!

How did it happen that the issue became one that belongs to “we” rather than accepting what was handed down to us from the Apostles?

Because the we referenced there is in the context of the we on this forum. We are to use it in te sense the apostles did, of course. Therein lies the the dispute which arises because we don’t hold that the apostles used it in the sense that some would claim.

No, this is not anyone here defining it. This is the definition we received from the successors of the Apostles. This is how the Church of the NT is described, and the term is used by the early Church to identify the Body founded by Christ.

IT was the Pope and the Magesterium that created the creed. They alone were authorized by Christ to do so. You don’t see any references when the term “Trinity” was adopted either.

They created the form of the creed but not its content. They were no different from us as inheritors of the apostolic deposit.

Yes, all these creeds were created when there was no schism. And despite the schism, we have most things in unity and are only separated by a comparatively miniscule percentage compared to differences we both have with all denominations.

I am not sure they would agree with that.

 

[Mystophilus]

Just don’t mention unicorns, because frankly, we should avoid bringing the Anglicans into this mess.

Unicorns, being the Scottish symbol, would be the Presbyterians. I am (perhaps disloyally) tempted to suggest that the best one for the Anglican Communion would be the hydra.

 

[guanophore]

We are to use it in te sense the apostles did, of course.

Yes. We are in agreement on this point.

Therein lies the the dispute which arises because we don't hold that the apostles used it in the sense that some would claim.

Yes. When the Reformers rejected the Sacred Tradition as a source of pure revelation, much was lost.

They created the form of the creed but not its content. They were no different from us as inheritors of the apostolic deposit.

Yes, we are in agreement that the words of the Creeds reflected content that was transmitted through the paradosis, not any invention of new doctrines.

But they were different, because they did inherit and embrace the fullness of the Apostolic deposit, whereas, significant degrees of that deposit have since been lost when the doctrine of Sola Scriptura came to pass.

I am not sure they would agree with that.

By comparatively miniscule I do not in any way mean to imply that what differences exist are not important or critical. But we are in agreement of the meaning of the words in the creed.

 

[Memaw]

Many Catholics drift to denominations because they don’t feel “fed” spiritually. I was one.

They were being “fed” in the Most Beautiful way but they weren’t appreciating the Holy Meal. That is NOT always the Churches fault. And if many would look into their heart, they would admit that. We need to open our minds and our hearts to what the Church offers and appreciate what God has given us. God Bless. Memaw

 

[Per_Crucem]

Yes. When the Reformers rejected the Sacred Tradition as a source of pure revelation, much was lost.

I don’t disagree. However, even bearing that, on a creedal level, the creeds mention nothing of the areas that separate Lutheran and Catholic theology (the Pope, etc.).

But they were different, because they did inherit and embrace the fullness of the Apostolic deposit, whereas, significant degrees of that deposit have since been lost when the doctrine of Sola Scriptura came to pass.

I agree.

By comparatively miniscule I do not in any way mean to imply that what differences exist are not important or critical. But we are in agreement of the meaning of the words in the creed.

How much we read into the words of the creed determines that, though. What the Orthodox church means by “one, holy, catholic and apostolic,” is not the same as what the Latin church means.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t disagree. However, even bearing that, on a creedal level, the creeds mention nothing of the areas that separate Lutheran and Catholic theology (the Pope, etc.).

How much we read into the words of the creed determines that, though. What the Orthodox church means by “one, holy, catholic and apostolic,” is not the same as what the Latin church means.

I think this last statement informs the first. The mention of the word "catholic’ in the creed can be a point of separation, depending on how those who are reciting it infuse it with a different meaning. I recently had a Lutheran here at CAF say that their parish changed the word to “Christian” Church so they “feel better” using it. I think that is a crux of a matter.

Although this particular member affirmed that “universal” was meant by the term when everyone used it, there are still feelings of animosity around the word “catholic”. May God heal us of our wounds!

 

[Per_Crucem]

I think this last statement informs the first. The mention of the word "catholic’ in the creed can be a point of separation, depending on how those who are reciting it infuse it with a different meaning. I recently had a Lutheran here at CAF say that their parish changed the word to “Christian” Church so they “feel better” using it. I think that is a crux of a matter.

Although this particular member affirmed that “universal” was meant by the term when everyone used it, there are still feelings of animosity around the word “catholic”. May God heal us of our wounds!

Amen. I think (and I believe the East, both Orthodox and Catholic, agrees with the idea) that catholic means less “universal,” as it does “fullness and completeness.”

This is where I believe my own current communion is lacking.

 

[Annie39]

Amen. I think (and I believe the East, both Orthodox and Catholic, agrees with the idea) that catholic means less “universal,” as it does “fullness and completeness.”

This is where I believe my own current communion is lacking.

So…Come home. We have left a light on for you. Right next to the tabernacle.

Annie

 

[Memaw]

I don’t disagree. However, even bearing that, on a creedal level, the creeds mention nothing of the areas that separate Lutheran and Catholic theology (the Pope, etc.).

I agree.

How much we read into the words of the creed determines that, though. What the Orthodox church means by “one, holy, catholic and apostolic,” is not the same as what the Latin church means.

And what the Lutheran Church means by “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic,” is not the same as what the Catholic Church means. Vast difference! We may agree on some things but not some of the very most important things. The things that truly make us ONE. God Bless, Memaw

 

[KathleenGee]

I have been attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran church…and I am ‘in’, now passing the test…after gradually moving back to staying in my seat during communion service…I have been reflecting on the differences for awhile now…and I am likewise not wanting to offend anyone.

I do enjoy them…and i am beginning to believe in the Lutheran stand of consubstantiation…I do have an observation and am praying in the Holy Spirit to seek truth of others…that I am tending to believe that Christ is present with the Lutherans at church…with the bread and wine.

And as a Catholic, we experience Christ in His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

I am trying to articulate…

About leprechauns…they are Catholic demons…there is the Anglican unicorn…and I would say the Norwegian Lutheran trolls…having lived with a variety of Scandinavians up in Puget Sound most of my life…as well as enjoying their smorgasbords, hard tac, spritz, and other culinary delights.

 

[Annie39]

I have been attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran church…and I am ‘in’, now passing the test…after gradually moving back to staying in my seat during communion service…I have been reflecting on the differences for awhile now…and I am likewise not wanting to offend anyone.

I do enjoy them…and i am beginning to believe in the Lutheran stand of consubstantiation…I do have an observation and am praying in the Holy Spirit to seek truth of others…that I am tending to believe that Christ is present with the Lutherans at church…with the bread and wine.

And as a Catholic, we experience Christ in His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

I am trying to articulate…

About leprechauns…they are Catholic demons…there is the Anglican unicorn…and I would say the Norwegian Lutheran trolls…having lived with a variety of Scandinavians up in Puget Sound most of my life…as well as enjoying their smorgasbords, hard tac, spritz, and other culinary delights.

I’m sorry that you are converting from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. If you would like to discuss it perhaps we could start another thread.

But the part of your post that just gave me the giggles was about leprechauns being Catholic demons. May I ask how you came to that conclusion? Unicorns are Anglican really? And trolls are Lutheran, you don’t say? One of my boys lives in Puget Sound (I always say “on” Puget sound) I’ll ask him about their smorgasbords and why he didn’t take us to one when we visited.

Annie

 

[Memaw]

I have been attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran church…and I am ‘in’, now passing the test…after gradually moving back to staying in my seat during communion service…I have been reflecting on the differences for awhile now…and I am likewise not wanting to offend anyone.

I do enjoy them…and i am beginning to believe in the Lutheran stand of consubstantiation…I do have an observation and am praying in the Holy Spirit to seek truth of others…that I am tending to believe that Christ is present with the Lutherans at church…with the bread and wine.

And as a Catholic, we experience Christ in His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

I am trying to articulate…

About leprechauns…they are Catholic demons…there is the Anglican unicorn…and I would say the Norwegian Lutheran trolls…having lived with a variety of Scandinavians up in Puget Sound most of my life…as well as enjoying their smorgasbords, hard tac, spritz, and other culinary delights.

If you are beginning to believe the Lutheran stand of consubstantiation, then its time you come back to your Catholic Church and study your faith and the Eucharist. And leave the leprechauns, unicorns and trolls to the fairy tales. Prayers and God Bless, Memaw

 

[SteveVH]

I’m sorry that you are converting from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I don’t think she is. She takes someone in her care to Lutheran services and has been observing their liturgy.

 

[steido01]

I don’t think she is. She takes someone in her care to Lutheran services and has been observing their liturgy.

That’s my understanding, too. Very kind of her to do such a charitable thing.

In any case, we Lutherans typically don’t try to convert a catechized Christian. No sense in cannibalizing our sacramental, liturgical brothers and sisters who are already hearing the word and receiving His Grace through the sacraments. Now our non-denominational extended kinfolk, on the other hand…

 

[EvangelCatholic]

That’s my understanding, too. Very kind of her to do such a charitable thing.

In any case, we Lutherans typically don’t try to convert a catechized Christian. No sense in cannibalizing our sacramental, liturgical brothers and sisters who are already hearing the word and receiving His Grace through the sacraments. Now our non-denominational extended kinfolk, on the other hand…

 

[Annie39]

I don’t think she is. She takes someone in her care to Lutheran services and has been observing their liturgy.

If you read her note it sounds like she is about to convert.

Annie

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I have been attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran church…and I am ‘in’, now passing the test…after gradually moving back to staying in my seat during communion service…I have been reflecting on the differences for awhile now…and I am likewise not wanting to offend anyone.

I do enjoy them…and i am beginning to believe in the Lutheran stand of consubstantiation…I do have an observation and am praying in the Holy Spirit to seek truth of others…that I am tending to believe that Christ is present with the Lutherans at church…with the bread and wine.

And as a Catholic, we experience Christ in His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

I am trying to articulate…

About leprechauns…they are Catholic demons…there is the Anglican unicorn…and I would say the Norwegian Lutheran trolls…having lived with a variety of Scandinavians up in Puget Sound most of my life…as well as enjoying their smorgasbords, hard tac, spritz, and other culinary delights.

Its great that you are enjoying our Divine Services, but to be fair, we don’t believe in consubstantiation and all Lutheran theologians reject that term.