Leprechauns Lutherans and other 16th Century Churches

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Again…when I read this title of thread…it really cracked me up.

But no, I am not fractured in my faith.

I am reflecting Vatican II…and I experience His presence at the Lutheran service…and in that I mean to say, if I even understand the term right, He is next to the bread and wine…He honors the grace they have in faith.

As Catholic, however, we experience the reality of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and really it makes me a little sad to be there and see they do not have the grace of faith that we have.

We are no better and the Lord has no favorites…but with them and so many other Christians, they do not realize how much they are missing with the sacraments, with our hierarchy in spite of its scandals. We have this tremendous experience of the Holy Trinity, our first calling as Catholics.

We are called to enter into communion with the Holy Trinity. And it is actualized by the communion we experience as Church. We cannot look at individuals, including the Pope as ends in themselves…rather we are the People of God.

Other branches of Christianity share in the Lord…and He is next to them when they worship and honor Him.

But He wants us all to be truly one, not just with sentiments…but one…at one table. On another thread, two Lutherans shared with me some of Luther’s writings, and these as such point to the problem of linguistics and politics and the problem with communication.

Just like I am reading and hearing from two sources…that the highest in Orthodoxy know that the Schism, though its circumstances and conditions were most complex, there were grave miscommunications, that led to the split and the rest of Orthodox is entrenched in this Schism.

Pope Francis is reaching out to the Evangelicals, and his gravest concern right now for reunification is with the Orthodox, and he is willing to make some kind of change to the papacy. He did not say how.

But we must hold all other Christians in good faith, knowing the Lord loves them just as much, He hears their prayers, and He looks out for them. He is present when they call on Him, when they remember Him, whether alone or together. And yes, to the apostolic Church…well, there is just so much I wish we could share with our separated brethren.

I don’t want to offend any Lutheran, but at the service in comparing it to a Catholic Mass, our Mass is so deep and solemn…that I come out totally fulfilled, nourished and renewed.

At last Sunday’ service…the pastor changed form and he asked people to chose a song to sing…and Lutherans love to sing alot. I was deeply afflicted by the horrific things happening to Syrian and Iraqi Christians, Gaza, our southern borders, and the exploitation and unstable conditions of those Central American children…Ukraine and Russia, the jets going down…awful…we sang and sang and sang…and it was consoling. In those songs I prayed for all those people and concerns…it makes me want to cry.

So I hope this clears up any confusion.

I am getting ready for bed and just looked up at the title of this post and it made me start to laugh again.

God bless!
 
KathleenGee said:
Again…when I read this title of thread…it really cracked me up.

But no, I am not fractured in my faith.

I am reflecting Vatican II…and I experience His presence at the Lutheran service…and in that I mean to say, if I even understand the term right, He is next to the bread and wine…He honors the grace they have in faith.

As Catholic, however, we experience the reality of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and really it makes me a little sad to be there and see they do not have the grace of faith that we have.

We are no better and the Lord has no favorites…but with them and so many other Christians, they do not realize how much they are missing with the sacraments, with our hierarchy in spite of its scandals. We have this tremendous experience of the Holy Trinity, our first calling as Catholics.

We are called to enter into communion with the Holy Trinity. And it is actualized by the communion we experience as Church. We cannot look at individuals, including the Pope as ends in themselves…rather we are the People of God.

Other branches of Christianity share in the Lord…and He is next to them when they worship and honor Him.

But He wants us all to be truly one, not just with sentiments…but one…at one table. On another thread, two Lutherans shared with me some of Luther’s writings, and these as such point to the problem of linguistics and politics and the problem with communication.

Just like I am reading and hearing from two sources…that the highest in Orthodoxy know that the Schism, though its circumstances and conditions were most complex, there were grave miscommunications, that led to the split and the rest of Orthodox is entrenched in this Schism.

Pope Francis is reaching out to the Evangelicals, and his gravest concern right now for reunification is with the Orthodox, and he is willing to make some kind of change to the papacy. He did not say how.

But we must hold all other Christians in good faith, knowing the Lord loves them just as much, He hears their prayers, and He looks out for them. He is present when they call on Him, when they remember Him, whether alone or together. And yes, to the apostolic Church…well, there is just so much I wish we could share with our separated brethren.

I don’t want to offend any Lutheran, but at the service in comparing it to a Catholic Mass, our Mass is so deep and solemn…that I come out totally fulfilled, nourished and renewed.

At last Sunday’ service…the pastor changed form and he asked people to chose a song to sing…and Lutherans love to sing alot. I was deeply afflicted by the horrific things happening to Syrian and Iraqi Christians, Gaza, our southern borders, and the exploitation and unstable conditions of those Central American children…Ukraine and Russia, the jets going down…awful…we sang and sang and sang…and it was consoling. In those songs I prayed for all those people and concerns…it makes me want to cry.

So I hope this clears up any confusion.

I am getting ready for bed and just looked up at the title of this post and it made me start to laugh again.

God bless!
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I never had a doubt, Kathleen. Recognizing the spiritual presence of Christ in the Lutheran communion is not abandoning the Catholic faith.

God bless you.

Steve
 
Hi Mem,
Memaw said:
And what the Lutheran Church means by “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic,” is not the same as what the Catholic Church means. Vast difference! We may agree on some things but not some of the very most important things. The things that truly make us ONE. God Bless, Memaw
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I agree. On another thread there is a discussion about how you determine if someone (or some communion) is ‘anti-Catholic’. There is general consensus that if one considers the pope to be the anti-Christ, THEN you ARE anti-Catholic.

Of course Lutherans are required to hold to the teachings of the Lutheran Confessions, which make it very clear that the pope is the anti-Christ. Individual Lutherans will hem and haw about the ‘nature’ of the pope, but the fact that they claim to hold to the Lutheran Confessions means that they officially believe what the Confessions say.

Lutherans do speak of ‘One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church’, but to include us as Catholics with our ‘anti-Christ’ at the head, and our mass as the work of Satan, within that designation is more than a little odd.

How could we ever be “One” if they continue to hold to that ultra offensive language.

I know - we could redefine the word ‘one’, and maybe ‘church’ while we are at it. Oh yeah, how about the word ‘gospel’, and ‘justification’, and … Yep, that would do it. :rolleyes:

God Bless You Mem, Topper17
 
Thanks Steve.

The Lutheran service I attend uses ‘Christian’ instead of Catholic in the Nicene Creed, and some other phraseology, of which I think the Latin Catholic is more precise…the usual considering our intellectual bent vs the Orthodox mysticism.
 
I hope that you aren’t suggesting that I should have some reverence or respect for fairies In Gaelic mythology. You have a right to your opinion but I think that my story is in the spirit of the Catholic Church substituting Christian holidays in place of the pagan ones. I knew someone who believed in the “little people” as she called them (an Irish lady). If they are real spirits they are not from God and I have no intention of showing them any respect. My heritage is Irish (Cork and somewhere in Ulster) but I am an American. I thank the Irish for passing on the Catholic faith to me so I have very much respect for them; especially my great-grandfather who was a very kind and generous man but not their fairies.

Annie
 
My great grandfather was a Brady from County Cavan and my great grandmother was a Catholic from Swansea, Wales…but she had the stronger faith.

My grandmother shared with us some of the tales taught her by her father…and her faith was so strong and devout.
 
KathleenGee said:
Again…when I read this title of thread…it really cracked me up.

But no, I am not fractured in my faith.

I am reflecting Vatican II…and I experience His presence at the Lutheran service…and in that I mean to say, if I even understand the term right, He is next to the bread and wine…He honors the grace they have in faith.

As Catholic, however, we experience the reality of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and really it makes me a little sad to be there and see they do not have the grace of faith that we have.

We are no better and the Lord has no favorites…but with them and so many other Christians, they do not realize how much they are missing with the sacraments, with our hierarchy in spite of its scandals. We have this tremendous experience of the Holy Trinity, our first calling as Catholics.

We are called to enter into communion with the Holy Trinity. And it is actualized by the communion we experience as Church. We cannot look at individuals, including the Pope as ends in themselves…rather we are the People of God.

Other branches of Christianity share in the Lord…and He is next to them when they worship and honor Him.

But He wants us all to be truly one, not just with sentiments…but one…at one table. On another thread, two Lutherans shared with me some of Luther’s writings, and these as such point to the problem of linguistics and politics and the problem with communication.

Just like I am reading and hearing from two sources…that the highest in Orthodoxy know that the Schism, though its circumstances and conditions were most complex, there were grave miscommunications, that led to the split and the rest of Orthodox is entrenched in this Schism.

Pope Francis is reaching out to the Evangelicals, and his gravest concern right now for reunification is with the Orthodox, and he is willing to make some kind of change to the papacy. He did not say how.

But we must hold all other Christians in good faith, knowing the Lord loves them just as much, He hears their prayers, and He looks out for them. He is present when they call on Him, when they remember Him, whether alone or together. And yes, to the apostolic Church…well, there is just so much I wish we could share with our separated brethren.

I don’t want to offend any Lutheran, but at the service in comparing it to a Catholic Mass, our Mass is so deep and solemn…that I come out totally fulfilled, nourished and renewed.

At last Sunday’ service…the pastor changed form and he asked people to chose a song to sing…and Lutherans love to sing alot. I was deeply afflicted by the horrific things happening to Syrian and Iraqi Christians, Gaza, our southern borders, and the exploitation and unstable conditions of those Central American children…Ukraine and Russia, the jets going down…awful…we sang and sang and sang…and it was consoling. In those songs I prayed for all those people and concerns…it makes me want to cry.

So I hope this clears up any confusion.

I am getting ready for bed and just looked up at the title of this post and it made me start to laugh again.

God bless!
Click to expand...
Hi Kathleen

Thank you for clearing that up. Your post touched my heart very much and I had intended to write a bit more maybe I will later.

After reading some of my posts on CA it may be difficult to believe but after my family and close friends the most important people in the world to me and whom I hope will come home are the Lutherans. My experience with the Lutheran people was very good. I still have Lutheran friends. The pastors of the Lutheran Churches that I attended were almost exclusively very kind hard working terrific family men. There is one exception in my experience but they are human after all. I never met a Lutheran who referred to himself as being part of the Catholic Church. If the ECs have been around for a long time they weren’t in my neck of the woods. My heart aches for those who tell themselves that they are members of the Catholic Church and are receiving the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. I want to shout “please come home”.

“Just like I am reading and hearing from two sources…that the highest in Orthodoxy know that the Schism, though its circumstances and conditions were most complex, there were grave miscommunications, that led to the split and the rest of Orthodox is entrenched in this Schism.”

I am a history buff and have read quite a bit about the schism and in MHO the break was due to politics on both sides. I know the sack of Constantinople is used to hammer Catholics but the Orthodox actually did their share of evil.

Pax et bonum

Annie

BTW the Lutherans of my experience used “Catholic” in their creed but spelled with a lower case “c”.
 
KathleenGee said:
Thanks Steve.

The Lutheran service I attend uses ‘Christian’ instead of Catholic in the Nicene Creed, and some other phraseology, of which I think the Latin Catholic is more precise…the usual considering our intellectual bent vs the Orthodox mysticism.
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To change the meaning is to “do our own thing”. Isn’t that the name of the game today! Make it what we want it to be. “The truth is what you want it to be!” How false!!! God Bless, Memaw
 
For sure.

Some times I think the Latin Church over defines at times. But then there is always somebody out there that is going to tweek the one true Christ, and the Deposit of Faith.

So the Church is there to clarify any mistaken notion…because the devil makes his own wild fire…seems when a mistaken idea comes out, people grab onto it and it spreads very fast.

But when it is the truth of Christ…there is opposition because then people have to die another part of their self to Christ. The road to eternal life is hard and difficult.

To be Catholic, you really have to die to your way of looking at things.
 
Annie,

I know what you mean.

And I am sensitive in my relationship to the Lutherans at this congregation and try not to sound backbiting.

I do see practices and movements change a few times. So instead of the prayers before communion where the pastor states they are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, it was briefly touched as we spent alot of time singing. I participated because of my mood and made it a prayer for all the great problems in the world. To clarify, at Catholic Mass, nothing changes in the different parts. And there are strict rubrics for the Mass and sacrament to be valid.

There was a profound statement made at the communion service at the beginning…i don’t pay attention now…where after the bread and wine is blessed…instead of the pastor holding up the host and stating, ‘this is my body and blood’, a layman takes the host from him, stands at the center of the altar and says the words. That was to me Protestant.

I will remember you and your family in prayer.
 
Annie39 said:
In ancient Irish myths, the leprechaun guards a hidden pot of gold which humans try to find; and if a person catches one, so the Irish say, he can be forced to reveal where it is by holding him until he reveals its whereabouts. It happened one day so one version of the story goes. A man captured a Leprechaun by hiding behind a tree in a forest until the wee one strolled by and the man threw a net around him. The man would not let him go until he revealed under which tree the treasure was hidden the Leprechaun obliged. The man had a shovel and used it to bury the gold under the tree. He then tied a red ribbon to the tree so that when he returned with a wheel barrow he would be able to distinguish which tree it was that had the deposit of gold. The following day he returned with the wheel barrow only to discover that the Leprechaun had tied identical red ribbons on every tree in the forest. The trees appeared to be identical but only one was the tree which had the treasure.

I have always interpreted that to be an Irish folk tale about the farmer in a parable in the Bible. The farmer (the man in the folk tale) who sows good seed (the first red ribbon) and the evil one (the Leprechaun) ties an (identical red ribbons) the bad seed. Of course the folk tale is not exact because when the Lord (represented by the man) surveys all the “trees” He has no doubt wherein lay the treasure that he left (deposit of faith). Those bad ribbons are like the word “Catholic” when used outside of the True faith. There is a True Faith and if one seeks with all of his heart, He will find it. Who ever seeks finds. Sometimes it takes a little work.

Annie
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Hi Annie: I like your little story. had not looked at it in the way you did but find it does have much meaning It made me think back to my hippie day in SF during the 60’s and not being a practicing Catholic, but not giving up my faith in the Catholic Church. That being said I remember one time when I met Jim Jones who tried very hard to convince me to join his church, I resisted because I could not see anything that he had to offer and this was when I was studying different religions and denominations and coning to the conclusion that the truth was to be found in the Catholic Church.
Code: 
           It also reminded me of those who seek the truth, and in seeking it find it in the Catholic Church so they come home so to speak. I do understand that the various Christian Church contain some of the truth but as a Catholic believe they do not have the fullness of the truth or the whole truth, but only some of the truth. I also understand that some think they find it in whatever Church they decide on as God leads them as He wills for them as per their understanding of Him and what they come to believe. 

          Discovering the truth is not an easy thing. We live in a world where truth is often hidden and lies can travel the world several times before the truth can tie its shoe laces. Sometimes it is not easy to tell the difference between what is true and what is not. And as Jesus said those who have ears let them hear.
 
Topper17 said:
Hi Mem,

I agree. On another thread there is a discussion about how you determine if someone (or some communion) is ‘anti-Catholic’. There is general consensus that if one considers the pope to be the anti-Christ, THEN you ARE anti-Catholic.

Of course Lutherans are required to hold to the teachings of the Lutheran Confessions, which make it very clear that the pope is the anti-Christ. Individual Lutherans will hem and haw about the ‘nature’ of the pope, but the fact that they claim to hold to the Lutheran Confessions means that they officially believe what the Confessions say.

Lutherans do speak of ‘One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church’, but to include us as Catholics with our ‘anti-Christ’ at the head, and our mass as the work of Satan, within that designation is more than a little odd.

How could we ever be “One” if they continue to hold to that ultra offensive language.

I know - we could redefine the word ‘one’, and maybe ‘church’ while we are at it. Oh yeah, how about the word ‘gospel’, and ‘justification’, and … Yep, that would do it. :rolleyes:

God Bless You Mem, Topper17
Click to expand...
Hi Topper: I agree with you and what you are saying. However it seems to me from reading many posts that some Lutheran’s posts not all Lutherans seem to believe in their confessions or at the very least do not take all of it seriously about the Pope being the antichrist and teaching false doctrine, while other Lutheran posters seem to take it very seriously and do believe that the Pope is the antichrist and does teach false doctrines, so it seems to me IMHO that there is not some universal agreement in understanding or agreeing with everything in the confessions, and some will believe what they will depending on how one understands it. Some think that it is the Council of Trent that keeps them from wanting to reunite while others seem to think that till the CC accepts the Lutheran doctrines there can be no reunion between the two Churches.
It seems confusing to me that there appears to be no agreement as each seem to understand it differently while as a Catholic I read the confession on that point and find it hard to believe that it could mean anything but what it says in the literal sense. Any Church not in union with the CC is separated from it and so not one with the CC. IMO it seems to me that any Church can be called One Holy and Apostolic and Catholic if they are separated from the one Christ founded, with all of the teaching that have been taught since the beginning, not changing those teachings to whatever a Church and its leaders decide it to be. And that is the real problem in that while a Church may have some of the truth, they are not willing to accept all of the truth.
 
SteveVH said:
I too believe that the OP could be taken as provocative, but it doesn’t have to be. There is a lot of truth to the fact that the word “Catholic” has begun to be thrown around to the extent that it begins to loose its meaning. For instance, an “evangelical Catholic” to me means a Catholic who’s ministry is evangelizing. I don’t know of a Church called “The Evangelical Catholic Church”. It seems to me to be an effort to reduce the Catholic Church to just one more ecclesial community among many, one among equals, all who have equal claim to be called “Catholic”, but “Catholic” on their own terms. It actually gives lie to the very term, which implies universal unity.
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Hi Steve VH : I agree! Over the years it appears that a good many churches or those who call themselves believers try to reduce the CC to just one more community of churches and make the CC one among equals, while others seem to take it to the extreme by being anti-Catholic in their remarks and thinking, while still others are just indifferent to it all one way or the other.
 
spina1953 said:
Hi Annie: I like your little story. had not looked at it in the way you did but find it does have much meaning It made me think back to my hippie day in SF during the 60’s and not being a practicing Catholic, but not giving up my faith in the Catholic Church. That being said I remember one time when I met Jim Jones who tried very hard to convince me to join his church, I resisted because I could not see anything that he had to offer and this was when I was studying different religions and denominations and coning to the conclusion that the truth was to be found in the Catholic Church.
Code: 
           It also reminded me of those who seek the truth, and in seeking it find it in the Catholic Church so they come home so to speak. I do understand that the various Christian Church contain some of the truth but as a Catholic believe they do not have the fullness of the truth or the whole truth, but only some of the truth. I also understand that some think they find it in whatever Church they decide on as God leads them as He wills for them as per their understanding of Him and what they come to believe. 

          Discovering the truth is not an easy thing. We live in a world where truth is often hidden and lies can travel the world several times before the truth can tie its shoe laces. Sometimes it is not easy to tell the difference between what is true and what is not. And as Jesus said those who have ears let them hear.
Click to expand...
Your post took me back many a moon. “Be sure to wear some flowers in your hair” keeps going through my mind. 🙂

Somewhat like Mr. White Wynd in Chesterton’s short story “Homesick at Home” you and I and many other folks went around the spiritual world like Wynd did the physical one only to come home again.

Annie
 
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