lesbian friend

[Maxply]

Respectfully, Mirdath, I’d say you’re probably on target the way people initially take things. But in the long term, it’s important that people know where other people stand, and it does, for most people, affect their behavior.

The number 1 factor in preventing teens from smoking, for instance, is their knowledge that parents disapprove. Deep down, there’s an impact.

This subject—showing moral disapprobation–is a very difficult and context-specific one. Very, very tough to generalize. Some homosexuals may well respect someone firm in their beliefs, while others might laugh or trivialize a person and his values.

Hollywood and TV have made us all super-sensitive to moral criticism of any sort, to the extent that any discussion or show of values is considered on a par with the holocaust. This has a good effect, if you want to promote the notion that any and all behaviors are okay to do ("What!!! You don’t like me killing puppies!! How dare you judge!!). But overall, humans have a moral dimension, and I fear for the erosion of our public appreciation of this.

 

[Mirdath]

Respectfully, Mirdath, I’d say you’re probably on target the way people initially take things. But in the long term, it’s important that people know where other people stand, and it does, for most people, affect their behavior.

I’m not encouraging people to hide their beliefs for the sake of the initial impression – quite the contrary! Consider Fred Phelps’ method of preaching against homosexuality as opposed to Gertabelle’s: the former I deride, the latter I’d gladly sit down with and talk, even though the end result is most likely to be polite disagreement. I know quite well where both stand on the issue, but one of them I respect – and that’s what makes the difference. As they say, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

This subject—showing moral disapprobation–is a very difficult and context-specific one. Very, very tough to generalize. Some homosexuals may well respect someone firm in their beliefs, while others might laugh or trivialize a person and his values.

Very true; but you’re much more likely to gain and keep that respect if you’re tactful. Many would-be evangelists forget that, and then condemn their audience all the more for the catcalls.

No, patience, love, and respect aren’t going to win everybody over, or even eliminate hostility. But they’ll do a far better job at that than getting up on a soapbox and excoriating people. Condemning those who condemn you only puts you down at their level.

 

[Maxply]

Sounds like we’re pretty much in agreement. I don’t know who Fred Phelps is, though.

It seems to me as though fundamentalists have really done religion a disservice over the years, have made it possible for the general public, and especially those who have anti-religious views, to poke fun at religious and spiritual belief.

I hate to see any values-talk get scoffed at simply because it IS values-talk. I hate to see religion get dissed just because of some wild-eyed, half-educated preechurs.

With respect to the people in this situation, I just can’t say. I’d need to know more about them. In MY life, I try to take advice from people and have a hard time rejecting advice, since it’s usually offered in a spirit of helpfulness. But that’s me. Others might pretend that some great offense was given, etc., etc.

I like your part about honey and flies; laughter’s a good thing, too.

 

[sandraladeda]

I find that many Catholics seize on the gay lifestyle with a greater judgementalism than they would for any other sin. let’s face it - there is lots of sin out there we could be judgemental about!

If we feel it is advisable to inform a lesbian friend of the sinfulness of her actions, and end the friendship, I guess we should also write off the people we know who live together before marriage, get vasectomies, don’t go to church on Sunday, divorce and remarry, etc. Would you do that? “Sorry, Bob, I can no longer be your friend because you practice birth control”. Would that be right? Would that be fruitful?

What is the fruit of telling someone you do not approve of their gay lifestyle and that it is a sin?

I feel the more Christlike approach is one of mercy - love the sinner. Unless the lesbian friend is an idiot, she knows what the church teaching is on homosexuality. She knows her friend’s beliefs. Continuing to love her and be her friend is not like saying it’s okay, it’s an opportunity to show love and mercy. Be a Christian example. The day may come that the lesbian friend will ask the question of the Catholic friend - what do you think about me being gay? There will surely never be the opportunity to have that conversation if there is a judgement pronounced, and a friendship written off.

imho

PS gertabelle, I loved your post #17…

 

[Mirdath]

Sounds like we’re pretty much in agreement. I don’t know who Fred Phelps is, though.

I think so

Fred Phelps is the ‘God hates fags’ guy, the pastor of Westboro Baptist Church. He’s pretty notorious for picketing funerals and so on. A chapter of the Ku Klux Klan put out a leaflet condemning him a while back. When the Klan calls a WASP a bigot, that’s telling.

It seems to me as though fundamentalists have really done religion a disservice over the years, have made it possible for the general public, and especially those who have anti-religious views, to poke fun at religious and spiritual belief.

I hate to see any values-talk get scoffed at simply because it IS values-talk. I hate to see religion get dissed just because of some wild-eyed, half-educated preechurs.

Very much so. The lunatic fringe has managed to push the idea that it is representative of ‘true’ Christianity into the social gestalt incredibly well over the last 20-30 years – and everybody else is hurting because of that, Christian and non-Christian alike.

 

[PennitentMan]

When the Klan calls a WASP a bigot, that’s telling.

What does the acronym WASP mean?

Thanks!

 

[Mirdath]

What does the acronym WASP mean?

Thanks!

White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Sorry, I thought it’d be clearer

 

[PennitentMan]

White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Sorry, I thought it’d be clearer

I think it is, I’m just ignorant

I heard it on a Scrubs episode the other day…Dr Cox asked a couple if they were WASPs…he replied, “Penticostals, actually”

I kinda suspected it was a religious thing, but for all I knew, he could have been asking if they were the flying, stinging insects!

Sorry for the slight derailment

 

[PennitentMan]

I think it is, I’m just ignorant

I heard it on a Scrubs episode the other day…Dr Cox asked a couple if they were WASPs…he replied, “Penticostals, actually”

I kinda suspected it was a religious thing, but for all I knew, he could have been asking if they were the flying, stinging insects!

Sorry for the slight derailment

Oh, and now I get his joke too! Thanks

 

[Maxply]

I don’t want to hog this thread, but I think Sandra’s got a good point about people especially pointing out the homosexual stuff.

I’m struggling right now in figuring out how to deal with all these people living together. This is just something I would never have seriously considered, even though at the time I was dating I could have jumped into that crater. I just think its bad policy, smells bad, and does a disservice all around. . . as well as the moral/sin implications.

This living together stuff is very dangerous in many respects.

But to the OP: it’s tough keeping silent; silence might suggest acceptance, and ultimately, make you complicit. Whatever’s finally said, must be done calmly, nicely and in a friendly way, and as a casual byword and not the main conversation (i.e., "let’s talk about your homosexuality). Maybe at some point there might be a talk of trying to live one’s values, etc.

I know in my life, I’ve had to walk away from friends whose values I just could not share. In some of these instances, it actually proved to be a good thing for me.

 

[Catholig]

I think so

Fred Phelps is the ‘God hates fags’ guy, the pastor of Westboro Baptist Church. He’s pretty notorious for picketing funerals and so on. A chapter of the Ku Klux Klan put out a leaflet condemning him a while back. When the Klan calls a WASP a bigot, that’s telling.

Very much so. The lunatic fringe has managed to push the idea that it is representative of ‘true’ Christianity into the social gestalt incredibly well over the last 20-30 years – and everybody else is hurting because of that, Christian and non-Christian alike.

The “God Hates Fags” guy also said the Pope John Paul II is in hell

Catholig

 

[Mirdath]

The “God Hates Fags” guy also said the Pope John Paul II is in hell

Among many, many others, yes.

 

[KCtheMommy]

The “God Hates Fags” guy also said the Pope John Paul II is in hell

Catholig

Doesn’t common sense and experience in hatred- specifically WASPS using hatred – point right to the source of the problem?

“God Hates Fags” is obviously a homosexual himself. Instead of helping himself – he attacks everyone else like him. Well ok it’s an assumption, but a fair one. I feel OK assuming this crazy man is a homosexual, I mean what does it matter what I think? I know this much: it’s certainly safer than assuming what God thinks or feels about ANYONE.

To walk around spreading HATRED in the name of God…tsk tsk tsk. Saying a little prayer for him.

 

[Vincenzia]

Maybe she is experimenting. Her age is important in this instance too. You try all kinds of things when you are younger… well and sometimes older.
One of my best friends is gay and has been with his partner for over 25 years, which is longer and stronger than most hetero marriages. I’m not condoning, but I’m not judging either. They love and are committed to each other and sometimes in life finding love just isn’t so easy for everyone. But love is a gift. Isn’t it? One thing I can say about my friend is that we are very open with each other. He knows my views and we’ve had very intense and informative discussions about faith and marriage… some we agree and some we definitely don’t. I pray for him, yes, disown him for his lifestyle, no.
Talk to your friend, if this is really that big of an issue for you. Be sincere, not judgemental. If she understands and truly wants to have a relationship with you still, then this might be a very enlightening experience for you both.
Jesus hung out with a pretty crazy crowd in his time, did he?

 

[Sina]

I personally think that since your friend came out to you, they need you to be your friend and you should support them. I don’t mean support the sinful acts, but just support who they are. I think you know that anyways.

I have had friends in university who were engaged in sex with multiple partners. I was personally disgusted by it, but when they realized that they didn’t need to do this in order to gain popularity etc… I was there to support them. Everyone is a sinner right?

I like the idea that people are putting out on this thread that we need to be examples to our friends. You don’t always realize how much of an example you are right away.

To go off on a tangent if I may:
I have some friends who are unpractising Catholics who had an abortion right before they got married ( I don’t think I can ever get over that ), but when they had their first born child, they asked me to be the godmother because they couldn’t imagine anyone else and even though they stray from Christ, they were happy to have a friend to reach out to in need and they obviously wanted their daughter raised in the faith, with help and support.

 

[Greg27]

The “God Hates Fags” guy also said the Pope John Paul II is in hell

Catholig

A nice example of how total hate pollutes a person’s heart to the extent they can see no goodness or beauty, anywhere. (While I don’t agree with everything JP II said or argued, he was someone who had a deep relationship with his God).