Lesbian "marriage"

[Awful_Things]

Awful Things:

If you tried to sympathise with my view for 5 minutes, you would probably see your way through your first two objections. (Hint: if you go to the reception, don’t sign the registry, don’t drink, and don’t clap for the newly “weds.”) The symbolic value of one’s attendance at the reception is conventional and can be altered when this is necessary and agreeable to everyone concerned.

For your next objection, I would say the Bible doesn’t require us to teach continually. Isn’t there a term for someone who goes around “correcting” everybody? Why is such a person universally hated? Isn’t it because they come off as arrogant? Isn’t there an asymmetric power relation between teacher and student so that when someone behaves as a teacher they are belittling the people around them?

Next, you wouldn’t have bothered with your next point if you had tried to sympathise with my side. (Hint: is the estrangement strictly necessary?)

Finally, I admit it could very well be impossible to avoid teaching lessons, but that doesn’t mean teaching has to be the direct aim of every action. And that doesn’t mean that teaching lessons is a line a argument that needs to be insisted on.

(Last post, I swear)

Not to be contrary, but I never said one must “teach continually”. Your words were these:

Furthermore, the idea of sending messages to people is troublesome. First, it is supremely arrogant to think that your duty is to teach others.

If it is arrogant to “teach others”, you placed no qualifier on that as being “continual” or once in a while. What you wrote is called a straw man argument.

Also, if you truly plan to go "to the reception, don’t sign the registry, don’t drink, and don’t clap for the newly “weds”, then why in the world are you there? Are you supporting them? If someone walks up to you and says, “Isn’t this great?”, how will you respond? Are you comfortable with the occassion of scandal when others see you at the reception?

Let us say receptions after an abortion were customary. Would you be equally fine attending that?

 

[Awful_Things]

I disagree with the idea that “attendance implies approval”.

I attended mass with my wife this past Sunday, but this doesn’t mean that I agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church; in fact, I consider some of them to be deeply harmful. I went because mass is important to my wife and my wife is important to me.

To the OP: if you stay away, be aware what it will communicate about how much you value the couple relative to how much you value your religion’s rules. Depending on how close you are to the couple, simple attendance at their wedding can be seen as an expression of love. By the same token, lack of attendance can be taken as a sign of lack of love.

Define love.

 

[Awful_Things]

It has been a long time since I actually attended a wedding, and my religious beliefs have changed considerably since then. If I applied them constantly with attended weddings, I would probably need to stop going to most weddings altogether, including Catholic ones.

In this day and age, it is rare for a young couple to be open to life - which is a core part of marriage. Knowing they contracept, and they are not open to life (that they fully intend to only have ONLY 1 (maybe 2) children) - how can I celebrate a marriage that I know is not really one, that I know has flaws from inception. At best I can hope as their “marriage” falls apart due to their dis-unity, they turn to God and find out what a marriage actually is.

So I have the option of attending, supporting the shadow of a relationship they are starting, and praying for them - or not attending, knowing they really are going to be needing that support and those prayers.

So to be clear, you would support the “shadow” of a relationship that is contrary to natural law and God’s law?

 

[gearhead]

Define love.

In this case, something like “care and regard for another person”.

 

[Awful_Things]

In this case, something like “care and regard for another person”.

So, in this case, why is attendance at a reception a demonstration of care and regard?

Also, while Christ definitely associated with sinners, do we see examples of him showing “care and regard” by showing up as a guest to events which are designed to celebrate sin? If not, are we being unChristlike in that “love”?

If this were a reception for a relationship built on pedophelia, would you attend?

 

[gearhead]

So, in this case, why is attendance at a reception a demonstration of care and regard?

Because it shows support for the couple.

Also, while Christ definitely associated with sinners, do we see examples of him showing “care and regard” by showing up as a guest to events which are designed to celebrate sin? If not, are we being unChristlike in that “love”?

Hey - do what you want. Wedding invitations are just that: invitations, not summonses. If you don’t want to go, nobody’s forcing you. It would just be good to keep in mind how it might be perceived.

If the friendship of the couple matters to you, then you might consider offending the couple to be a negative thing. You have to ask yourself whether the (IMO dubious) principle involved is worth that cost.

Edit: ah… I see you slipped an edit in your post:

If this were a reception for a relationship built on pedophelia, would you attend?

No, I wouldn’t. If I knew of a pedophilic relationship involving someone I knew, I wouldn’t send an RSVP, I’d phone the police.

Would you phone the police to report a same-sex relationship between consenting adults? Assuming that the answer’s “no”, think long and hard about why you wouldn’t.

 

[fix]

I disagree with the idea that “attendance implies approval”.

I attended mass with my wife this past Sunday, but this doesn’t mean that I agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church; in fact, I consider some of them to be deeply harmful. I went because mass is important to my wife and my wife is important to me.

Mass is not objectively immoral so attending one is not similar to what we have with the OP.

To the OP: if you stay away, be aware what it will communicate about how much you value the couple relative to how much you value your religion’s rules. Depending on how close you are to the couple, simple attendance at their wedding can be seen as an expression of love. By the same token, lack of attendance can be taken as a sign of lack of love.

Love ought to be correctly ordered or it really is not love, right?

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Off the top of my head: Show up late, leave early, avoid food and drink, stay off the dance floor, dress more casually than the occasion would ordinarily require, and refrain from expressing anything about the “marriage.” Or you could argue: By skipping the “wedding” ceremony, you’ve already opted out of celebrating.

I would actually argue that staying home and not attending would be viewed better in the eyes of the “couple” getting “married.” Going to the ceremony and publicly expressing your disapproval and throwing a wet blanket on the whole thing is just going to upset them even more than not attending, and will upset the other attendees as well.

My advice is just say that you aren’t going to be attending. If people really want to drag the reason out of you, then you may explain that you disapprove of the celebration, and don’t find anything in this is worthy of celebration. Or, if you want to be more charitable, you can just explain in a lighthearted manner that: “I think it would be more fun for you guys on your day for me to just stay away”

If they are going to get horribly offended at this, it just shows their intolerance of your beliefs, and they are not friends worth having. I have very good friends who differ in views from me greatly. And there are things they want to celebrate (Like Obama’s election) that I chose not to attend. Because they are friends, they understand that we don’t have to agree to be friends, and the respected my opinions and decisions.

 

[gearhead]

Mass is not objectively immoral so attending one is not similar to what we have with the OP.

Same-sex marriage isn’t objectively immoral.

But there is quite a bit to find immoral in the teachings of the Catholic Church, and mass is one of the major symbols or aspects of the Church.

Love ought to be correctly ordered or it really is not love, right?

Love between partners in a same-sex marriage is ordered just fine.

 

[fix]

Same-sex marriage isn’t objectively immoral.

But there is quite a bit to find immoral in the teachings of the Catholic Church, and mass is one of the major symbols or aspects of the Church.

Love between partners in a same-sex marriage is ordered just fine.

And this is based on what?

 

[gearhead]

I would actually argue that staying home and not attending would be viewed better in the eyes of the “couple” getting “married.” Going to the ceremony and publicly expressing your disapproval and throwing a wet blanket on the whole thing is just going to upset them even more than not attending, and will upset the other attendees as well.

I agree. If the objective is to not show approval of the marriage while minimizing the offense to the couple, then making a show out of disapproving is a really bad idea.

If they are going to get horribly offended at this, it just shows their intolerance of your beliefs, and they are not friends worth having.

Huh?

*- A: I’m getting married! Wanna come to the wedding?

• B: I reject your notion of marriage. Your relationship isn’t really love; it’s sin.
• A: What an awful thing to say! What’s with you?
• B: Hmmph. You’re so intolerant of my beliefs.*

 

[gearhead]

And this is based on what?

Which “this” are you referring to?

 

[fix]

Which “this” are you referring to?

All that you wrote in that post.

 

[Awful_Things]

Because it shows support for the couple.

Exactly. One is perfectly permitted to show support for an idividual when that individual is doing something that is worthy of support. By supporting a “couple” in a celebration of a sinful (or at least scandalous) act, you are chosing differently. On that note, it should also be pointed out that one does not support people, but actions. I do not blanketly support my brother because, if he begins beating his kids, I do not support that. Nor would I hang out at his house while it is happening to “support him and his wife”. I do support him and anyone else, though, who does something good, such as attending Mass.

Hey - do what you want. Wedding invitations are just that: invitations, not summonses. If you don’t want to go, nobody’s forcing you. It would just be good to keep in mind how it might be perceived.

The OP asked for advice. I’m giving it. Are you at all concerned about how it would be perceived by those who would understand it to be scandal? Why are they less important than the wedding guests?

If the friendship of the couple matters to you, then you might consider offending the couple to be a negative thing. You have to ask yourself whether the (IMO dubious) principle involved is worth that cost.

Christ tells us that standing up for righteousness might even divide family (he came with a sword, not to bring peace on earth). He didn’t disapprove of this, so why do you? Are you being unChristlike by taking a different approach?

No, I wouldn’t. If I knew of a pedophilic relationship involving someone I knew, I wouldn’t send an RSVP, I’d phone the police.

Ah, so the law of the land is worth speaking up about, but not the law of God? Also, couldn’t you just phone the police, but still show up to “support” the couple, each of whom you care about? What is the difference?

Would you phone the police to report a same-sex relationship between consenting adults? Assuming that the answer’s “no”, think long and hard about why you wouldn’t.

No I wouldn’t. Why? Because same-sex relationships aren’t against the law, at least in my state. Gay marriage’s are matter of invalid licenses, not arrests. No law has been broken, as in pedophelia. Come on, you can do better than that.

 

[gearhead]

All that you wrote in that post.

• the only bases to declare same-sex marriage immoral are religious beliefs that I don’t personally believe are based in fact.
• without getting into issues I have with Catholic teachings that don’t relate directly to the mass, I find the idea of the sacrifice in the Eucharistic ceremony to be deeply immoral. It commemorates the placing of all the sins of the world on the only truly innocent person. This idea is fundamentally unjust; while Christ’s sacrifice can be seen as noble, the actions of a god who would demand that sacrifice are not.

However, maybe we should just leave it at that, since I don’t want to drag the thread off-topic. If you want to discuss this somewhere else, let me know.

• I’ve personally witnessed the love between a number of same-sex couples (as much as a person can witness the love between two other people, anyhow) - it’s as real, genuine and “ordered” as the love between opposite-sex couples.

 

[Nec5]

Aren’t there two big issues here about witnessing?

1. Isn’t everyone at a marriage considered a witness and are considered testimony to the validity of the marriage? If so, then your attendance indicates that you are a witness tot he validity of the union.
2. What about the part where the priest/rev. says “if anyone here has any reason not to join these too…”? You would be required to say something if you considered the marriage invalid or wrong for any reason. Otherwise, you are consenting to the union.

 

[gearhead]

Exactly. One is perfectly permitted to show support for an idividual when that individual is doing something that is worthy of support. By supporting a “couple” in a celebration of a sinful (or at least scandalous) act, you are chosing differently. On that note, it should also be pointed out that one does not support people, but actions. I do not blanketly support my brother because, if he begins beating his kids, I do not support that. Nor would I hang out at his house while it is happening to “support him and his wife”. I do support him and anyone else, though, who does something good, such as attending Mass.

I’ve got no objection with this. All I’m saying is that not attending can send a message saying “what you’re doing is unworthy of support”. People tend to take things like that personally when it comes from someone close to them.

The OP asked for advice. I’m giving it. Are you at all concerned about how it would be perceived by those who would understand it to be scandal? Why are they less important than the wedding guests?

I didn’t say anything about the wedding guests. I referred only to the couple. I know there can be exceptions, but usually when someone invites you to their wedding, it’s because of the relationship that you have with them.

I personally feel that what bystanders think, whether they’re wedding guests or members of one’s congregation, is secondary; you’re free to feel differently.

Christ tells us that standing up for righteousness might even divide family (he came with a sword, not to bring peace on earth). He didn’t disapprove of this, so why do you? Are you being unChristlike by taking a different approach?

I don’t really care whether I’m “christlike” or not. I go by what I think is right, not by what Jesus did. Sometimes the two are different things.

However, all this talk about being “christlike” has got me to thinking: I seem to have forgotten the verse in the Gospels where Jesus declines an invitation to a lesbian wedding. Could you remind me which one it is?

Ah, so the law of the land is worth speaking up about, but not the law of God?

Sexual abuse of children is worth speaking up about, whether it’s the law of the land or not. Calling the police is a handy way of putting the harm to an end.

Also, couldn’t you just phone the police, but still show up to “support” the couple, each of whom you care about? What is the difference?

If someone I know was a pedophile, then I wouldn’t want to support him. I wouldn’t care about the message that my non-attendance at the hypothetical pedophilia ceremony you’ve dreamed up.

No I wouldn’t. Why? Because same-sex relationships aren’t against the law, at least in my state.

You’re halfway there. Why aren’t they against the law?

 

[gearhead]

Aren’t there two big issues here about witnessing?

1. Isn’t everyone at a marriage considered a witness and are considered testimony to the validity of the marriage? If so, then your attendance indicates that you are a witness tot he validity of the union.

Certainly not legally. The only witnesses who testify to the validity of the marriage are the ones who sign the marriage certificate.

1. What about the part where the priest/rev. says “if anyone here has any reason not to join these too…”? You would be required to say something if you considered the marriage invalid or wrong for any reason. Otherwise, you are consenting to the union.

I don’t know about where you are, but this custom has disappeared where I am. I’ve been to many weddings from a spectrum of denominations and religions, but I’ve never once heard the officiant ask for objections from the attendees.

 

[Nec5]

Certainly not legally. The only witnesses who testify to the validity of the marriage are the ones who sign the marriage certificate.

I don’t know about where you are, but this custom has disappeared where I am. I’ve been to many weddings from a spectrum of denominations and religions, but I’ve never once heard the officiant ask for objections from the attendees.

You’re probably right. I almost mentioned the fact that the custom may have faded. Oh well. Another great idea goes the way of the dust bin.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Huh?

*- A: I’m getting married! Wanna come to the wedding?

• B: I reject your notion of marriage. Your relationship isn’t really love; it’s sin.
• A: What an awful thing to say! What’s with you?
• B: Hmmph. You’re so intolerant of my beliefs.*

Gearhead: Any friend is going to recognize that not everyone agrees with their choices. I can’t think of a single person who would argue with the arguements you are giving. Let me make it a little more clear:

A: I’m getting married!
B: I am glad you are happy, but I will not be attending.
A: Why?
B: The notion of same sex marriage is against my religion. I think we would both be more comfortbale if I stayed home. I still love you though.
A: I understand, and I am sorry you feel that way.

Conversations happen like this all the time. Many people are able to maintain friendships with diverse people without sacrificing their religious beliefs. This is the foundation of tolerance.