let the truth be told

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Does is bother anyone outside of the Catholic Church that each protestant denomination teaches something quite different than the other?

Especially since we were not taught directly by Jesus Christ and or His apostles which had been given teaching authority to teach in His name?
 
Does is bother anyone outside of the Catholic Church that each protestant denomination teaches something quite different than the other?

Especially since we were not taught directly by Jesus Christ and or His apostles which had been given teaching authority to teach in His name?
So you have asked a question.
Made a statement which indicates what a Protestants answer “should” be.
And finally indicated that you would not believe anything we might say.

Classic, you will have a long and successfull carreer here at CA.
 
Does is bother anyone outside of the Catholic Church that each protestant denomination teaches something quite different than the other?

Especially since we were not taught directly by Jesus Christ and or His apostles which had been given teaching authority to teach in His name?
Yes, it bothers me that Protestant communions, Rome, and Orthodoxy do not teach the same doctrines. It is evidence of sin.

Jon
 
Well, it bothers me a bit as a Catholic.

But now the tide is turning…they’re coming home…First the Anglicans, then the Lutherans…😃 😉
 
Yes, it bothers me that Protestant communions, Rome, and Orthodoxy do not teach the same doctrines. It is evidence of sin.

Jon
Dear JonNC,

It is indeed an evidence of sin, but sin on the part of those who have separated from the Catholic Church, be they Orthodox or the Protestant ecclesial groups. Now I freely admit that these unhappy divisions are engendered over doctrinal and moral issues which the warring parties consider very fundamental.

Our Lord prayed passionately that all His disciples would be one (St. John 17:21) and He said the Church was to be one flock with one shepherd (see St. John 10:16). Now it seems quite clear to me that all the factions within Protestantism have their roots in the Reformation when a single, historic and unified Church authority was abandoned. Since that time each new division produces a smaller splinter sect, often more extreme than its previous manifestation.

All these divisions are the inevitable consequence of sola scriptura and the so called ‘perspicuity of scripture’. Even on empirical evidence these theories cannot be sustained. There are two major problems for the upholders of these erroneous teachings: first, if the Bible is so clear and easy to understand, why the existence of some 30,000 different Protestant denominations? It will not do to respond by saying that these differences only concern so called ‘second order’ issues, and that all agree on the fundamentals. Sorry, but the different groups do not merely disagree about minor things like whether women should where hats in Church or whether one should be sprinkled, dipped or dunked in Holy Baptism. On the contrary they disagree on major questions - is Baptism necessary for salvation?; is it possible for one to loose one’s salvation?; What is the correct model of Church government?; Do good works matter; What is a sacrament? It is easy work to say that Sacred Scripture is essentially clear, but experience simply does not bear it out since all the Protestant groups/individuals make their appeal to the bible to make their conflicting points. Now all of this ultimately leads one along a subjective path to a quagmire of contradictory opinions - in fact the utter doctrinal bedlam that is Protestantism today.

I am quite prepared to concede that God has used the 30,000 different denominations to further His work in this vale of tears, however He is always endeavouring to pull good out of mankind’s sin. The Catholic Church of course values diversity, but our model is not 30,000 warring denominations existing as a law unto themselves; rather it is diversity of emphasis, culture and theological approach existing wthin the organic unity of the Catholic Church.

The second problem is what does one do when Scripture does not present a clear teaching on some crucial question of the day. This is very relevant at the moment since many moral issues are clearly products of the modern age. Unfortunately the bible does not discuss things like in virtro fertilisation, human cloning, atomic warfare or that perenial issue, global warming. My question is: When there are fundamental differences of opinion and when the bible does not speak clearly, who decides? In other words, who interprets the bible for our needs? It is either up to you and me or some Authority greater than both of us - hence the necessity of the Magisterium of the One true Church of Christ in this world.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
yes in alot of ways it bothers me. its so strange that i am a stranger to people who used to accept me as a brother, before i became Catholic. it bothers me that now when i try to have a discussion with protestants, we really are speaking in 2 different languages. the people i used to be associated with appear alien to me and i to them. our friendships are at best strained. but they seem to need to attempt to convince me of my " error " when after a long study of the bible and church history, the error is clearly theirs. oh well. im not going to push unity at the expense of truth. the eucharist the mass, prayers to the saints etc. why give up platnum for tin.
 
Dear JonNC,

It is indeed an evidence of sin, but sin on the part of those who have separated from the Catholic Church, be they Orthodox or the Protestant ecclesial groups. Now I freely admit that these unhappy divisions are engendered over doctrinal and moral issues which the warring parties consider very fundamental.

Our Lord prayed passionately that all His disciples would be one (St. John 17:21) and He said the Church was to be one flock with one shepherd (see St. John 10:16). Now it seems quite clear to me that all the factions within Protestantism have their roots in the Reformation when a single, historic and unified Church authority was abandoned. Since that time each new division produces a smaller splinter sect, often more extreme than its previous manifestation.

All these divisions are the inevitable consequence of sola scriptura and the so called ‘perspicuity of scripture’. Even on empirical evidence these theories cannot be sustained. There are two major problems for the upholders of these erroneous teachings: first, if the Bible is so clear and easy to understand, why the existence of some 30,000 different Protestant denominations? It will not do to respond by saying that these differences only concern so called ‘second order’ issues, and that all agree on the fundamentals. Sorry, but the different groups do not merely disagree about minor things like whether women should where hats in Church or whether one should be sprinkled, dipped or dunked in Holy Baptism. On the contrary they disagree on major questions - is Baptism necessary for salvation?; is it possible for one to loose one’s salvation?; What is the correct model of Church government?; Do good works matter; What is a sacrament? It is easy work to say that Sacred Scripture is essentially clear, but experience simply does not bear it out since all the Protestant groups/individuals make their appeal to the bible to make their conflicting points. Now all of this ultimately leads one along a subjective path to a quagmire of contradictory opinions - in fact the utter doctrinal bedlam that is Protestantism today.

I am quite prepared to concede that God has used the 30,000 different denominations to further His work in this vale of tears, however He is always endeavouring to pull good out of mankind’s sin. The Catholic Church of course values diversity, but our model is not 30,000 warring denominations existing as a law unto themselves; rather it is diversity of emphasis, culture and theological approach existing wthin the organic unity of the Catholic Church.

The second problem is what does one do when Scripture does not present a clear teaching on some crucial question of the day. This is very relevant at the moment since many moral issues are clearly products of the modern age. Unfortunately the bible does not discuss things like in virtro fertilisation, human cloning, atomic warfare or that perenial issue, global warming. My question is: When there are fundamental differences of opinion and when the bible does not speak clearly, who decides? In other words, who interprets the bible for our needs? It is either up to you and me or some Authority greater than both of us - hence the necessity of the Magisterium of the One true Church of Christ in this world.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
Dear JonNC,

It is indeed an evidence of sin, but sin on the part of those who have separated from the Catholic Church, be they Orthodox or the Protestant ecclesial groups. Now I freely admit that these unhappy divisions are engendered over doctrinal and moral issues which the warring parties consider very fundamental.

Our Lord prayed passionately that all His disciples would be one (St. John 17:21) and He said the Church was to be one flock with one shepherd (see St. John 10:16). Now it seems quite clear to me that all the factions within Protestantism have their roots in the Reformation when a single, historic and unified Church authority was abandoned. Since that time each new division produces a smaller splinter sect, often more extreme than its previous manifestation.
And warm regards to you as well, and thank you for your thoughtful response. Just
a couple of quick thoughts, and more later.
1st, the CCC (817) is quite clear that there is was blame to go around. In this way, the indictment for division is against all of us, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Protestant, etc., though 818 says that, "one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection…". As the separation we share continues, I accept my share of the blame (sin) of it, and I ask His and your forgiveness.
All these divisions are the inevitable consequence of sola scriptura and the so called ‘perspicuity of scripture’.
The problem with this is that Orthodoxy and in fact not all Protestantism abides the doctrine of sola scriptura, and many who say they do, actually hold to solo scriptura, a significantly different theory.
Originally posted by Hisalone
How do you define sin?
In this discussion, it is clear that we are not fulfilling Christ’s call and command that we be one. This disobedience is clearly sin. Now that doesn’t mean we claim unity where it does not exist, but only that we seek each other out, and together pray the Holy Spirit guide us.

Jon
 
Does is bother anyone outside of the Catholic Church that each protestant denomination teaches something quite different than the other?
I don’t think each Protestant denomination teaches something quite different from all the others. If the truth is told, many non–Catholic Western Christian faith communities share common ground both in doctrine and spirituality. I respectfully suggest that in such cases the more accurate description of the Christians concerned would be to declare that the doctrines to which they adhere and the Christian lifestyles that they embrace are “quite similar.”

I bring this to attention in order that truth might best be served. 🙂

Ecumenically,
Mick
👍
 
Dear JonNC,

Thankyou for your comments.

First, Let me say by way of reply that the references (paras. 817-818) that you cite from the The Catechism of the Catholic Church do not approve or sanction schism on the part of Orthodoxy or Protestantism, for that would be a tacit denial that the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Christ upon St. Peter (see C.C.C. para. 816). The references that you cite are merely acknowledging that owing to human sinfulness “men on both sides were to blame”, in the sense that passions oftentimes ran exceedingly high and only served to exacerbate matters. Moreover, the descendants of the original separatists obvously cannot be held resposible for acts of disunion perpetrated by their forefathers. Having said that their* forefathers* were,nevertheless, guilty of the “sin of separation” from the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”, and the only way in which this rupture can be healed is for our “separated brethren” to be reconciled to the Cathol;ic Church and submit to the successor of St. Peter.

Second, as regards non acceptance of sola scriptura, it is only the liberal Protestants (though even they make their appeal to the bible when it suits them) who would demur from this Reformation rallying cry, conservative protestants believe that Sacred Scripture is the only rule of faith and is thus a sufficient guide to salvation, notwithstanding that the Bible itself does not claim this.

Orthodoxy is both schismatical and heretical and is separated from the obedience due to the authority of Christ in His true Church. Their separation has caused them to fall into several errors in respect of Christian doctrine.

The difference between sola scriptura and scriptura solo is surely negligible as to be almost non-existent, I mean the shading is so fine that you could get a cigarrette paper between them.; in the final analysis they amount to much the same thing, namely the view that the Bible is the sole authority in matters of faith and morals, herein lies the error. Both result in a multiplicity of biblical interpretations as well as the further fragementation of the Body of Christ.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
I don’t think each Protestant denomination teaches something quite different from all the others. If the truth is told, many non–Catholic Western Christian faith communities share common ground both in doctrine and spirituality. I respectfully suggest that in such cases the more accurate description of the Christians concerned would be to declare that the doctrines to which they adhere and the Christian lifestyles that they embrace are “quite similar.”

I bring this to attention in order that truth might best be served. 🙂

Ecumenically,
Mick
👍
Dear Mick,

Whilst it may be true that their is a sort of ostensible agreement among the different groups of non-Catholic Christians, that agreement is more apparent than real. The very existence of some 30, 000 different Protestant denominations, all appealing to the same bible in support of their conflicting opinions, does seem to suggest that the doctrines that they allegedly hold in common are anything but “quite similar”, otherwise why so many divisions? At the very least it does seem that Protestantism has a pathological tendency to divide.

No doubt all of the 30, 000 Protestant denominations claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet they all disagree. Did he lead some of them into the truth but mislead others? In fact the Holy Spirit was given within the context of the community of faith. It is primarily the Church which is the Spirit-filled body of Christ according to the New Testament, and individuals are filled with the Holy Spirit as the fruit of that. Thus the Catholic Church teaches that only through the Church can the Holy Spirit work authentically and most fully. Therefore it follows from this that it is only the Church which can most authentically interpret Scripture.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
Does is bother anyone outside of the Catholic Church that each protestant denomination teaches something quite different than the other?

Especially since we were not taught directly by Jesus Christ and or His apostles which had been given teaching authority to teach in His name?
You mean all 30,000 of them ------------------------------Hee Hee !!!
 
=Portrait;5892396]Dear JonNC,
First, Let me say by way of reply that the references (paras. 817-818) that you cite from the The Catechism of the Catholic Church do not approve or sanction schism on the part of Orthodoxy or Protestantism, for that would be a tacit denial that the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Christ upon St. Peter (see C.C.C. para. 816). The references that you cite are merely acknowledging that owing to human sinfulness “men on both sides were to blame”, in the sense that passions oftentimes ran exceedingly high and only served to exacerbate matters. Moreover, the descendants of the original separatists obvously cannot be held resposible for acts of disunion perpetrated by their forefathers. Having said that their* forefathers* were,nevertheless, guilty of the “sin of separation” from the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”, and the only way in which this rupture can be healed is for our “separated brethren” to be reconciled to the Cathol;ic Church and submit to the successor of St. Peter.
I didn’t say it did sanction the separation. But it does rebutt your implication that only those of us not in communion with Rome are responsible for the sin of separation. I believe, however that you are correct that the healing of the division would, of course, involve reconciliation between our communions, though we would again need to discuss and reconcile our understandings of the power of the papacy, in keeping with the early preschism teaching of it, in order for “submission” to happen.
Second, as regards non acceptance of sola scriptura, it is only the liberal Protestants (though even they make their appeal to the bible when it suits them) who would demur from this Reformation rallying cry, conservative protestants believe that Sacred Scripture is the only rule of faith and is thus a sufficient guide to salvation, notwithstanding that the Bible itself does not claim this.
There are Protestant groups who have never touted sola scriptura, liberal or not. And again, some of the very latest evangelical groups do not subscribe to sola scriptura, either, but instead solo scriptura.
And the Orthodox have never accepted SS. The point being, your claim that sola scriptura is the blame for separation has these flaws.
Orthodoxy is both schismatical and heretical and is separated from the obedience due to the authority of Christ in His true Church. Their separation has caused them to fall into several errors in respect of Christian doctrine
And they would and do make this claim of Rome.
The difference between sola scriptura and scriptura solo is surely negligible as to be almost non-existent, I mean the shading is so fine that you could get a cigarrette paper between them.; in the final analysis they amount to much the same thing, namely the view that the Bible is the sole authority in matters of faith and morals, herein lies the error. Both result in a multiplicity of biblical interpretations as well as the further fragementation of the Body of Christ.
Perhaps this is so from your perspective, but I, as aLutheran, wouldn’t consider it the reality. Maybe this will help:
modernreformation.org/default.php?page=printfriendly&var1=Print&var2=19

Jon
 
Originally Posted by SSTeacher
I don’t think each Protestant denomination teaches something quite different from all the others.
Then on what basis are denominations born?
It may depend on one’s definition of “quite”. The range of difference can vary, as Anglicans and Lutherans, for example, tend to be closer than Lutherans and Baptists.
But there are broad swaths of belief that virtually all Christians share: Trinity, resurrection, etc.

Jon
 
Dear Mick,

Whilst it may be true that their is a sort of ostensible agreement among the different groups of non-Catholic Christians, that agreement is more apparent than real.
Well, I’m prepared to concede that it’s apparent to you, anyway.🙂
The very existence of some 30, 000 different Protestant denominations, all appealing to the same bible in support of their conflicting opinions, does seem to suggest that the doctrines that they allegedly hold in common are anything but “quite similar”, otherwise why so many divisions?
I don’t dispute the number you’ve adduced although I think the defenders of Catholicism who like to keep up with such things are now quoting the number as 38,000. This latest number may be more apparent than real, of course, but that’s always a possible scenario in the numbers game. At any rate, your wording leads me to suppose that you may not have grasped the point I was attempting to make. Here is what I actually posted.
If the truth is told, many non–Catholic Western Christian faith communities share common ground both in doctrine and spirituality.
I note that you appear to have passed over the suggestion I made of a common spirituality. I’m not suggesting that there aren’t doctrinal divisions. But I would point out that people have different approaches to doctrine. Some people are unable to see doctrine as anything but pivotal. Doctrine is their raison d’être. I would suppose that Catholics are probably in this group. But there are other possible approaches and those of a thoughtful disposition will be prepared to acknowledge that this is so. For example, some people might take the view that humans define doctrine and that means it must necessarily fall short since God is higher than our highest human thought. To those who think in this way arguments about doctrine naturally seem somewhat pointless. Such individuals do not dismiss all doctrine – but their main focus is upon the spiritual life. They concentrate upon living out their Christianity and they strive to grow in holiness. I would suggest that this approach is not uncommon in non–Catholic Western Christendom and it is in this sense that its adherents can claim to be responding to the Sermon on the Mount and Our Lord’s prayer in John 17. They know about these passages because they usually read their Bibles every day. Christians like these can doubtless be found in most non–Catholic denominations and I’m suggesting that they have much in common – the fact that might disagree about doctrines notwithstanding. They would hope, with Saint Paul, to be able “to agree with each other in the Lord.”
At the very least it does seem that Protestantism has a pathological tendency to divide.
Logical idea but phrased using incautious terminology. C+.
No doubt all of the 30, 000 Protestant denominations claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet they all disagree.
I recommend dissection of detail and for such purposes I posit the Wesleyans and the Methodists and pose the following questions. Are there doctrines that greatly divide them? To what extent are they in constant disagreement with each other? Are they (to employ a somewhat curious term you used in an earlier post) warring denominations?
Did he lead some of them into the truth but mislead others?
That people, as individuals and as groups, struggle to find the truth is axiomatic. It’s perhaps relevant to note at this point that there were plenty of disagreements about what was true and what wasn’t true prior to the Reformation.
In fact the Holy Spirit was given within the context of the community of faith.
If you are here referring to Pentecost then I daresay most Christians will agree with you.
It is primarily the Church which is the Spirit-filled body of Christ according to the New Testament, and individuals are filled with the Holy Spirit as the fruit of that.
I think the probable source of any disagreement here is how different faith communities understand the Greek word, ekklesia.
Thus the Catholic Church teaches that only through the Church can the Holy Spirit work authentically and most fully.
Which, some might suggest, seems to put restrictions upon the Holy Spirit who in reality perhaps just goes wherever He pleases? If He does do that, would it mean that the fruit of the Spirit – love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self–control – would manifest itself in non–Catholics as well as in Catholics? What an awful doctrine–free nightmare for Catholic amateur apologists, huh? 😉
Therefore it follows from this that it is only the Church which can most authentically interpret Scripture.
Which is the Eastern Orthodox Church, right? No Sola Scriptura for Orthodox Christians! Moreover, Holy Orthodoxy offers a Biblecomplete of 76 books. Catholic Bibles (only 73 books) and Non–Catholic Western Bibles (only 66 books) are very good efforts, though, and deserve an A– and a B+ respectively.😛

Schismatically,
Mick
👍
 
SSTeacher;5892305:
I don’t think each Protestant denomination teaches something quite different
from all the others.Then on what basis are denominations born?
I guess the main theme in the early days after the Reformation would have been the conviction that the Catholic Church was corrupt and that for some considerable time it had been making people worse instead of better. Those Catholics who were unable to escape that conclusion would doubtless have felt a range of emotions – sadness, betrayal, anger, and despondency. Perhaps they even felt despair? I’d imagine the idea that there was no such thing as the One True Church (as they would have perceived their predicament) and that they now had to work out their salvation by themselves could have left them so. I suspect the idea that the Catholic Church makes people worse instead of better still prevails inside non–Catholic Western Christendom. So perhaps a not unreasonable conclusion is to declare that the denominations were “born” as a result of a mindset that entered into Western Christendom as a reaction to the rottenness of mediaeval Western churchmen?

Speculatively,
Mick
👍
 
SSTeacher;5893880:
I don’t dispute the number you’ve adduced although I think the defenders of Catholicism who like to keep up with such things are now quoting the number as 38,000.
38,297.46 😃

Jon
That’s a nice looking number, though, I must say. Very engaging. I trust your sources, Jon, and I’m tempted to use this number in the future whenever I get involved in the, “You’re divided, we ain’t, you’re lopsided, we’re quaint,” debate. Yes, it’s definitely a superb number. One of the most persuasive – if not the most persuasive – numbers I’ve encountered during the last few minutes.

Have you let Bill Pick know about it? 😉

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
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