Let's build a ready-made apologetic!

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Reformed_Rob

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Hey Catholic Apologists!!

I’ve got an idea! I was listening to a CD lecture by Vince Lewis and from him I am inspired to formulate a certain apologetic to use in discussing our Faith.

Please, if you don’t like Vince Lewis or the All Roads Ministry, please set your passions aside and give this a chance. I just mentioned him to give credit where credit is due.

Ok, I’ll lay it out for us:

The basis is to demonstrate to a person that they have no rational reason to reject Catholicism. This will be done without using the Bible, without comparing Protestant vs. Catholic doctrines, etc. This WILL be done by showing that certain history things are FACT and certain Catholic history miracle type things are also FACT.

The goal is to let the person perhaps see that if accept certain secular FACTS of history, they are being irrationally biased in rejecting Catholic FACTS of history.

** We can all perhaps chip in for eachother some Catholic facts that maybe not everybody knows about, but we can learn about and be able to explain to a person in apologetics.**

I’ll start, in the next post!

See ya there:thumbsup:
 
Near the Portugese city of Fatima, on October 13, 1917, a crowd of perhaps as many as 70,000 people witnessed an awaited for miracle of the sun seemingly coming out of orbit and descending to the earth. It was a rainy day, and as the sun ascended from it’s apparent descent, all the people were left dry.

The people were there because 3 Portugese children had reported witnessing an appearance of the Virgin Mary on the 13th day of the month, beginning May 1917.

Many reporters described the event, for instance…
Columnist Avelino de Almeida of O Século (Portugal’s most influential newspaper, which was pro-government in policy and avowedly anti-clerical)[1], reported the following “Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws-the sun ‘danced’ according to the typical expression of the people.”[5] Eye specialist Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the newspaper Ordem reported “The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat”.[6] The special reporter for the October 17, 1917 edition of the Lisbon daily, O Dia, reported the following, “…the silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy grey light, was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds…The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands…people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they.”[7]
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Perhaps it was a mass-hallucination, which is ridiculous. Perhaps it was an outer space alien type thing. Which to me seems to be grasping for straws! But whatever, right?

Neither of those explanations can explain how the children knew that something was going to happen that particular day. Actually, they didn’t “know” but what they did know is that they had seen visions on the 13th of previous months, and word got around, and so a crowd came. And they saw what they saw!
 
To which a secular historical fact could be…

Do you believe that on Thursday, December 16, 1773, a group of 50 Boston residents known as the “Sons of Liberty” and led by Samuel Adams rushed aboard 3 East India Company ships and destroyed over 300 crates of tea?

Both are matters of history that we cannot know about except by reading or something, which we can do. We can also visit the places, they are real places. But who says that the “Boston Tea Party” is a myth?

Come on! The Miracle at Fatima wasn’t even 100 years ago! And it was witnessed by thousands and reported in the news! The Boston Tea Party was over 200 years ago. Based on nearness of history, and all things, which is more likely to be true? FATIMA!!

But Fatima, if accepted, is a proof positive no doubt confirmation of the Catholic Church!
 
Do you sort of follow what I’m working on??

Please share your contributions!

Eucharistic miracles

Incorrupt bodies of saints

Other various miracles

The field is wide open
 
I see what you are working on, though it might take some time for a good solid response from me as I have to go grocery shopping, then spend some time with the wife. If this drops off I will bump it later to add a contribution.
History\Miracles

In Christ
Scylla
 
scylla said:
I see what you are working on, though it might take some time for a good solid response from me as I have to go grocery shopping, then spend some time with the wife. If this drops off I will bump it later to add a contribution.
History\Miracles

In Christ
Scylla
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Sounds great Scylla!
 
Reformed_Rob said:
Do you sort of follow what I’m working on??

Please share your contributions!

Eucharistic miracles

Incorrupt bodies of saints

Other various miracles

The field is wide open
Click to expand...
Good idea. I’ll have one coming up.
 
Not to be a fly in the ointment, but the average non-catholic will assure you that Fatima was indeed a supernatural event, staged by the devil to dupe Mary-worshipping Catholics.
 
Eucharistic Miracle

Lanciano, 700’s A.D. :The Heart of Christ
Abstract from the book “This Is My Body, This Is My Blood”
by Bob and Penny Lord p.19 - p.30

Lanciano is a small medieval town in Italy.

A monk was having a trying time with his belief in the real presence of our Lord Jesus in the Eucharist. He prayed constantly for relief from his doubts.
One morning, when he was having a strong doubt, he began the Consecration of the Mass for the people of the town.

People saw his hands were shaking, and then his whole body was shaking. He stood for a long time with his back to the people, and then slowly turned around to them.

He said “O fortunate witnesses to whom the Blessed God, to confound my disbelief, has wished to reveal Himself in this Most Blessed Sacrament and to render Himself visible to your eyes. Come, brethren, and marvel at our God so close to us. Behold the Flesh and Blood of our most beloved Christ.”

The host had turned into Flesh. The wine had turned into Blood.
The people, having witnessed the miracle for themselves, began to wail, asking for forgiveness, crying for mercy.

The miracle occurred in 700 A.D. The priest’s faith had been renewed. The entire town, actually the whole country became aware of the miracle. Pilgrims flocked to Lanciano to venerate the Host turned flesh. From the very beginning, the local church accepted this miracle as a true sign from heaven. There had been a manuscript written in both Greek and Latin, attesting to the miracle.

The flesh is from a real human heart and is kept until today.
Many researches have been done. An extensive research was done in 1970 with the most modern scientific tools available. The results are as follows:

• The flesh is real flesh. The blood is real blood.
• The flesh consists of the tissue of the heart.
• The flesh and blood belong to the human species.

This blood is over 1250 years old and still contains all its properties, chemicals and protein of freshly shed blood. And in the testing, it was determined that no preservatives of any kind were found in the blood.

The most perfect form of love is the Eucharistic Love of Jesus. In the miracle of Lanciano, He loves us by revealing His very Heart and His very Blood.
 
NotWorthy said:
Not to be a fly in the ointment, but the average non-catholic will assure you that Fatima was indeed a supernatural event, staged by the devil to dupe Mary-worshipping Catholics.
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Or perhaps they will say it was a flying saucer that did some loop-de-doos in the sky.

That’s just part of the excitement of being Catholic. Believing things that the average non-Catholic doesn’t believe. But Fatima is just one of many that will be brought up.

But valid point and your practical contribution is appreciated.
 
Ok here is my contribution, sorry it took so long…

Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Now what I am going to defend is not the Tilma*, but the apparition as proof of God directly intervening to change human events. Since God does work through people to bring people closer to Jesus, then this apparition must be of God as he uses people to bring others closer to Himself. As He used to Blessed Mother, to bring us Jesus.

Since a house divided against itself cannot stand, as Jesus said, any conversion to Jesus that comes on a massive scale must be part of God’s plan. As the Gospels described, Jesus allowed even people not of God’s Church, to preach truth so regardless of CARM’s opinion of Catholicism this cannot be of the Devil.

In 1492 Columbus came to the Americas with the professed intentiion of spreading faith in Jesus. Spain’s foray into the New World, encounters millions of Native Americans with no knowledge of Jesus.
1531 was the year of the apparitions to Juan Diego and the first Sanctuary is erected in 1533.
By the year 1541, nine million Aztecs had become Christians.

Since Catholicism is centered around salvation through Jesus Christ alone and this conversion of 9 million Aztecs resulted in a conversion to Christ, this affirms that the apparitions brought these people closer to salvation through Jesus and away from a pagan religion\religions.

In Christ
Scylla

*(that is another thread but not necessary for this discussion or belief in the apparition)
 
It’s sometimes hard to tell certain protestants that something is FACT. I have tried this, and most of the time they counter by saying it’s a set-up or conspiracy.
 
NotWorthy said:
Not to be a fly in the ointment, but the average non-catholic will assure you that Fatima was indeed a supernatural event, staged by the devil to dupe Mary-worshipping Catholics.
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My dear non-denominational friend feels the same way.

Especially with regards to Padre Pio. He says they should have kept St. Pio locked away. I told my friend that did that for several years, but finally allowed him his freedom.
I explained that St. Pio always gave glory to God through his Stigmata and miracles.
But, I’m sorry to say, it’s like talking to a wall.
Whenever a Jesus uses a Catholic in order to work miracles, Protestants leap to the conclusion that it’s the devil.
Oddly enough, when Jesus uses Protestant televangelists to heal people, one hears, “Praise Jesus, Praise Jesus!”

God figure …
 
Taken from the International Survivalist Society chapter3

Suppurating Fracture of the Leg. - Pierre de Rudder, who lived at Jabbeke, near Ostend, had his leg broken by a falling tree. Dr. Affenaer reduced the fracture and placed it in a starch splint, both bones being fractured and protruding through the skin. The flesh turned gangrenous, a large ulcer formed on the dorsal part of the foot, the wound was full of pus, and Dr. Vassanaere and others, called to a consultation, advised immediate amputation; to which the patient would not consent. About the middle of January Dr. Verriest again advised amputation, without effect. In April the patient was taken to the Grotto at Lourdes. There was a gap of over an inch between the ends of the bones and foul pus poured from the wound. Arrived at the Grotto he felt something happening as he rested on the seat. He knelt down and got up unaided, his leg resumed its normal size, the wounds healed up and the bones were solidly united. De Rudder then got up and walked without crutches to the omnibus which took him back to Ghent. The next day Dr. Affenaer came to visit him; “he found the bones quite smooth at the scat of fracture, which was firmly united without any callus. The man lived for twenty-three years after, and during that time worked continually on his land without the least sign of fatigue or pain.”

*“As this case excited an enormous amount of interest throughout Belgium, Dr. van Hoestenberghe, after De Rudder’s death, got permission to exhume the body, and he removed the bones of the legs, which are now in the possession of the Bishop of Bruges.” *

These bones were photographed, right and left leg for comparison: the photograph shows deformity at the scat of the fracture, but perfect union of the bones; there is no shortening and only slight displacement from the straight. The medical gentleman who has so kindly brought this case to my special notice remarks:How can we explain this case? We are confronted with the same difficulty as in the previous one. It is impossible to reject the direct evidence of so many competent medical men who examined the fracture both before and after the cure. Besides, we have the direct evidence of the united bones which were exhumed in the presence of a number of witnesses. We have no alternative but to admit the miraculous, although it goes dead against all our preconceived notions of the inviolability of natural laws to do so. Are we to believe that Nature’s laws can be set aside, or are we to reject all human testimony and the evidence of the bones themselves? Or may it be that the miracle is the result of some unknown law of the spiritual world? When Dr. Verriest examined the fracture three months before the cure, he stated that there was a separation of three centimetres (1 1/3 inches) between the two ends. In the centre of the wound two bony fragments could be seen, blackened and necrosed, and bathed in pus. To obtain a natural cure the necrosed ends would first have to be removed, and by that time the separation of the bones would have amounted to three inches or more. How was this cavity filled up? The periosteum had long since been destroyed by the suppuration … But here is another difficulty: where did the phosphate of lime come from to fill the gap? It could only come from the blood. Now the whole blood in the body only contains about 1.6 grammes of phosphate of lime, and the callus would require at least four times that amount. Where could it come from?(1) And further, what became of the sequestra? They must have disappeared, but where? And where did all the pus go to? It was so profuse that it poured over the cushions of the vehicle that brought him to the Grotto, much to the annoyance of the driver. And, lastly, the muscles during all these years after the fracture took place were atrophied and useless. How did they regain instantly their pristine vigour? No one is able to answer any of these questions, and yet the cure is incontestable.
 
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