Let's discuss God's immutability

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Does the Church have a definition of immutability? Do you believe there is any point in prayer, apart from perhaps a small psychological benefit, if God is immutable? Isn’t it apparent from Scripture that those who pray often will touch God’s heart more, and He will listen to them (I am reminded by Jesus’ parable of the widow when I ask this)?

Let’s discuss God’s immutability 🙂

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
Does the Church have a definition of immutability? Do you believe there is any point in prayer, apart from perhaps a small psychological benefit, if God is immutable? Isn’t it apparent from Scripture that those who pray often will touch God’s heart more, and He will listen to them (I am reminded by Jesus’ parable of the widow when I ask this)?

Let’s discuss God’s immutability 🙂

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
Prayer brings us closer to God who is the destiny of our soul. Union with God is the purpose for which we are made.

What is infinite can not change. If what is infinite takes on some new quality then we have a.) a before and after (time), and b.) something different (change). If infinity changes, takes on a new quality then it was not infinite previously. It is impossible to change outside time. Change presumes time, a before and after.

What is confounding about divine immutability is the quality of mercy. God was not always, from before He created time and anything in time (man), merciful. There was no object of mercy before we existed. He could not have been merciful to Himself, because He did not need mercy. A way to answer this is to say God always had the capacity of mercy, but that contradicts the truth that God is pure act and has no potency. He eternally gives Himself entirely, holding nothing of Himself back, to Himself. The Father gives Himself to the Son and the Son gives Himself back. Love gives love to love and there you can see the Trinity.

The reason God is merciful to us is He pities us. We are weak and helpless and know not what we do. We are powerless to help ourselves, enslaved to sin by an evil slave master more powerful and intelligent than we are. So God takes pity on us and redeems us. The question arises however, about how does divine immutability exist if God took on the quality of mercy. It is something new, a change.

I don’t know the answer. One of the most intelligent priests I know explained it once, but I was unable to understand it, not being trained in philosophy. It was over my head.
 
Prayer benefits and changes those who pray. Their hearts come closer to Him and more attuned to His will. Their desires start to be what His desires have been all along. Their prayers then start to align with what God is doing.
 
God is immutable, meaning, He never changes. I is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He never changes His mind, although from our human perspective, it may seem that He might.

God is eternal. He is simultaneously in the past, present, and future, all at once. He does not “foresee” the future, but “sees” the future as you and I see the present moment. He does not live from “moment to moment” like we do. He currently “sees” our ultimate end. Yet, this in no way infers that we do not have free will choices. It’s just that He already knows what we will choose because He “sees” it.
 
Prayer benefits and changes those who pray. Their hearts come closer to Him and more attuned to His will. Their desires start to be what His desires have been all along. Their prayers then start to align with what God is doing.
You seem to be saying that intercessory prayer does not produce a change, other than within the one praying. In other words, praying for the sick will have no effect on the sick. It may only help the one praying to accept the situation.

This goes against what I and many others have always been taught. It also seems to contradict a number of statements made by Jesus in which he states that prayers will be answered:

[BIBLEDRB]John 14:13-14[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:19[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 17:19[/BIBLEDRB]

Although you are correct in saying that God changing His plan in response to prayer would contradict His immutability…
 
But what of the parable of the nagging widow that Jesus told? She kept bothering and bothering until her requests were answered.
My personal (probably off the wall) belief is that although God doesn’t change in matters of WHO He is, but that He probably possibly changes what He allows and considers several different things within a set “rule” that He has for His Holy Will for us.
I don’t know if I’ve explained my position properly but there it is anyway.

I wrote my response as Ovrlapp was… I tend to go with his/her idea,
 
But what of the parable of the nagging widow that Jesus told? She kept bothering and bothering until her requests were answered.
My personal (probably off the wall) belief is that although God doesn’t change in matters of WHO He is, but that He probably possibly changes what He allows and considers several different things within a set “rule” that He has for His Holy Will for us.
I don’t know if I’ve explained my position properly but there it is anyway.

I wrote my response as Ovrlapp was… I tend to go with his/her idea,
Miracles that happen as a result of prayer, petitioning God to allow something to change in the material reality have nothing to do with divine immutability. God doesn’t change if some sick person gets well, or a blind person sees. It is the sick person who is changed.
 
Miracles that happen as a result of prayer, petitioning God to allow something to change in the material reality have nothing to do with divine immutability. God doesn’t change if some sick person gets well, or a blind person sees. It is the sick person who is changed.
Ahh, that’s basically what I believe as well… God’s doesn’t change but our prayers can and do change what happens, if it’s God Holy Will do allow it.

One of the posters above was confusing me since it gave me the impression that prayers were not answered because then that would constitute that God had “changed His mind”. I just could not believe that God would reduce Himself to just being a spectator, which is how I took the post.
 
You seem to be saying that intercessory prayer does not produce a change, other than within the one praying. In other words, praying for the sick will have no effect on the sick. It may only help the one praying to accept the situation.
On the contrary, I was thinking specifically of intercessory prayer when I wrote that. When those who pray are in line with God, their intercessions are more likely to match what God wants to do. They will pray for healing when it is God’s will to heal and pray for acceptance when it is it is God’s will the one interceded for accept.
 
Ahh, that’s basically what I believe as well… God’s doesn’t change but our prayers can and do change what happens, if it’s God Holy Will do allow it.

One of the posters above was confusing me since it gave me the impression that prayers were not answered because then that would constitute that God had “changed His mind”. I just could not believe that God would reduce Himself to just being a spectator, which is how I took the post.
God’s will does not change. For example, God wills our good. This is a general statement and can only be understood in a general sense. It could be good for me that I am late for work and get fired, or that I get sick and have to spend a month in bed. These are specific matters, not general. Good can come out of these things, or things that we can not see as good. If I break my leg and spend a month in bed, maybe I will rethink the direction of my life, or avoid a planned trip where I would have wrecked my car. If I get fired from my job that might upset me, but maybe I will get another job, where I will meet my furure wife, or life long best friend. When we pray for a specific intention God may allow it and it will change something here in time if it is for our general good. That does not mean God changes His will, which is always for our good.
 
Since prayer is God’s grace working efficaciously through us, from all eternity knew we would pray and determined that we would, and, as such, he is not changed by it.
 
Since prayer is God’s grace working efficaciously through us, from all eternity knew we would pray and determined that we would, and, as such, he is not changed by it.
Behind a prayer of petition is a desire for a certain result, outcome, or end. If that end is predetermined, in that God knew what we would hope for and that He would give it to us, then there is no need to pray. The thing we desire is predestined, or not. If we are praying for that which is predestined, we think our prayers impact ends, but they have no influence on them.
 
Jesus tells us to pray for our needs. Sometimes it is difficult to know what they are, what is best for us. Nevertheless, He tells us to ask and persist in asking. This implies that our prayers influence God and that His will is dynamic and not fixed, at least in regards to the outcome of earthly events. Yet we know that history is marching towards a destiny, the disposition of all things, a culmination which is known by God. If by our prayers we influence outcomes, this implies that here in time we have some power over the course of history and destiny. Since our prayers are directed to God and He hears and answers them, at times, this implies that we have some power of influence over God. Jesus obeyed Mary. He did her will. He hears and answers the prayers of the saints. That means He does their will. This does not mean that God is mutable. The bridegroom and the bride are one, married, joined, the two becoming one. They freely give themselves to one another, their very being, withholding nothing, including their will. Being one, they have one will. Mary’s prayer of petition to Jesus is what Jesus already wills. The same is true of all the saints. Jesus and His bride the Church are one. We surrender our will to God; thy will be done, but God also surrenders Himself, gives Himself, to us. We are from Him and of Him and vice versa. Jesus appeared to Saint Therese as a child. He asked her who she was. She said I am Therese of Jesus. She asked Him whoi He was. He said I am Jesus of Therese. When we are sacntified by God we become holy. God is holy. We become what God is, holy. Jesus commands us to be holy as the Father is holy. This implies transformation (change) on our part, not God’s. We become holy as God is holy. He took on our nature and became like us in all things, but sin. We are changed. God is not. His will is that we be holy, like Him. When our prayers lead to that transformation of us, they are answered according to His immutable will.
 
Behind a prayer of petition is a desire for a certain result, outcome, or end. If that end is predetermined, in that God knew what we would hope for and that He would give it to us, then there is no need to pray. The thing we desire is predestined, or not. If we are praying for that which is predestined, we think our prayers impact ends, but they have no influence on them.
There is need to pray, for it is only through prayer that the end will be reached. Even if an outcome is predestined, that does not take away the necessity for the means reaching that outcome, because the means are predestined as well and lead on to the end.
 
There is need to pray, for it is only through prayer that the end will be reached. Even if an outcome is predestined, that does not take away the necessity for the means reaching that outcome, because the means are predestined as well and lead on to the end.
If we follow the necessary means then we attain the end. If we do not follow the necessary means we do not attain the end, if the means are necessary to the end.

If there are two possibilities, utilizing the means, or not, and each possibility has a different end, then the end is not predestined. If the end has options, A or B, or more, it is not certain, predestined.

I am not certain of this. I never could understand predestination and attempts by philosophers to explain it have not helped me. Either I lack the ability to understand them, or the logic has holes, or maybe they do understand it, but can’t explain it. Words have limits. There are mysteries, things the limited human intellect can not grasp. We do not know what those limits are though. So it seems we are destined to ponder things, over and over, looking for the key to understanding we might have missed, not knowing whether it is findable, or that it even exists. Understanding can increase, but there are always limits.

Thank you for posting.
 
I really liked CS Lewis statement that “I pray not to change God, but to change myself.” For my part, since I’m not constrained to the Catholic viewpoint by the needs of faith, able to look at this in a slightly different way. Since it is difficult to solve a problem from within the problem, I hope this might help a bit.

I see God’s immutability as having two aspects. One is the transcendent, eternal, Father, the Union with whom is the object of salvation and for which end the Son of God became incarnate. The other aspect is the immanent, temporal, Spirit, the manifestation of Whom is the Created world, into which the Son of Man, as He called Himself, was born. this immanence is immutable in its laws, while appearing to us to change due to time. It also appears mysterious and capable of miracles due to our limited and less-than-Divine perspective. Jesus the Christ embodies the Union of these two aspects of immutability as a symbol and actualization of the actual Nature of God; transcendent and immanent. This is called the hypostatic Union in your Church. I won’t go any farther with this part so as to not step on sensitive toes on here.

But as my spiritual guide once said, the purpose of metaphysical work (prayer and meditation) is penetration and the alignment of the mind with Divine Principle. What this means is that, for example, if you are going to build a bird house, you consider the purpose, means, and end of your activity. The more clearly you see these, the more refined they are, the better the final result. In a way you are “Michaelangeloing.” You are taking away everything that isn’t the birdhouse as best you see it. The participles and means to various kinds and degrees are at hand according to your ability to “see” the bird house and what is comprehensively available to achieve that.

Now, some can do that a whole lot better than others and one person may come up with a lopsided box with a raggedy appearance, and someone else might come up with the best ever grand hotel with shingles, running water, and lights for a colony of swallows. The lesser endowed builder might say “That’s a miracle of construction!” But weren’t the same tools and materials available to both? And were there different rules for each? Of course not. But as in school, maybe one was more advanced and perceptively inclusive that the other. Is the raggedy builder any less? No. That builder may be only in second grade and the other a graduate student in engineering. It is not even a real comparison. It is simply observing two points in a continuum from a point outside that thread of it.

So God is immutable both as Alpha and Omega, or the beginning of things, which means manifestation and immanence, and the end of things, or transcendence. But because modernity from Augustine to Copernicus, give or take, focused on the transcendent and now we have science and its monological view focused on immanence, we seem to have a conflict where each perspective claims ownership of the whole dynamic. Neither does. The conflict is a matter of partiality and framing. Each “side” is expert in its field, but looses by not including the other. A dysfunctional marriage on the verge of either divorce or reconciliation, if you will.

It’s your call. Fro my part, I like this statement: “When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? It is because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”~ J. Krishnamurthi

Now I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be a Catholic or a Jew or a Muslim, but we all need to be aware of how things work in God’s picture as distinct from our best and most sincere stab at what it’s all about. Just as it has been said that “Civilization is a battle against testosterone,” so might actual Catholicism in its original sense be a battle against mental limitations on God. Or for Grace.
 
God doesn’t change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. We change and things in our lives can change through prayer. With prayer we gain grace and become so much closer to Jesus. Otherwise we wouldn’t believe in the Rosary.

15 Promises For Saying The Rosary – From Our Blessed Mother
  1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces.
  2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.
  3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies
  4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
  5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
  6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
  7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
  8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.
  9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
  10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.
  11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.
  12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
  13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death
  14. All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.
  15. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.
 
Hi all. I am looking for some specific quotes regarding God’s immutability. They would be from Augustine, City of God, Enarrationes in Psalmos. Anything that relates to prayer of petition, God’s will versus man’s will.
Okatana, above, quotes CS Lewis saying prayer is not about changing God’s will but rather changing our own, I have the feeling that he is paraphrasing Augustine so it was the original quotation I was looking for.
 
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