Let's play intelligent designer

[Hee_Zen]

Let’s try to create a much better world - at least on paper. As a first approximation let’s stick with already existing phenomena. Maybe later we could go off into fantasy land.

1. Instead of having a blood and claw type of nutrition system, we all could simply utilize the energy received from the Sun and some other energy sources - like the wind. That would eliminate the fight for resources - a huge improvement.
2. Instead of the crude indicator that something went wrong with our body - notably the existence of pain - we could have a regeneration system, so a lost or damaged body part would re-grow when necessary.
3. The one-cell organisms are practically immortal, they simply split and create their own replica. There is no reason not to have similar capability for multi-cell organisms, like us.

These just off the top of my head. According to the first, no wars. By the second, no more pain. And the third one gives immortality. All of these features already exist, no science fiction is needed. An intelligent designer would compose the best features into the one.

Add your thoughts to it…

 

[Bahman]

Let’s try to create a much better world - at least on paper. As a first approximation let’s stick with already existing phenomena. Maybe later we could go off into fantasy land.

1. Instead of having a blood and claw type of nutrition system, we all could simply utilize the energy received from the Sun and some other energy sources - like the wind. That would eliminate the fight for resources - a huge improvement.
2. Instead of the crude indicator that something went wrong with our body - notably the existence of pain - we could have a regeneration system, so a lost or damaged body part would re-grow when necessary.
3. The one-cell organisms are practically immortal, they simply split and create their own replica. There is no reason not to have similar capability for multi-cell organisms, like us.

These just off the top of my head. According to the first, no wars. By the second, no more pain. And the third one gives immortality. All of these features already exist, no science fiction is needed. An intelligent designer would compose the best features into the one.

Add your thoughts to it…

I think this is the best. How we could be exposed to other aspects of reality otherwise? Time will pass by and we learn, that is all which matters.

 

[Hee_Zen]

I think this is the best. How we could be exposed to other aspects of reality otherwise? Time will pass by and we learn, that is all which matters.

Not sure I get it. Do you mean that this world - as it exists - is the very best one? That there is no way to improve on it? Or have a better alternative? Just curious…

 

[Bahman]

Not sure I get it. Do you mean that this world - as it exists - is the very best one?

I am against the idea that define a perfect world as a world without suffering, evil, etc. Perfection to me is matter of getting exposed to all aspect of reality. Pleasure is meaningless without suffering, good comes with evil, etc.

That there is no way to improve on it?

Yes, we have to open up and take the responsibility, to know better and act better.

Or have a better alternative? Just curious…

This depends partially on us, partially is out of our control, call it Gods, our ignorance, Karma, etc.

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

I think the problem here is, you started this Thread under Philosophy ,
when you really should start games like this in the Clubhouse,
we like to take things a little less seriously there, or was it their, or was it these,
may I suggest perhaps starting again with maybe a little variant , in the clubhouse,
it is a good question though.

 

[Hee_Zen]

I am against the idea that define a perfect world as a world without suffering, evil, etc. Perfection to me is matter of getting exposed to all aspect of reality. Pleasure is meaningless without suffering, good comes with evil, etc.

I was not talking about a “perfect” world. Of course I disagree with the premise that we “need” suffering to appreciate pleasure, but that is not the issue here.

Yes, we have to open up and take the responsibility, to know better and act better.

That is good, but I was more interested in actual details. What kind of improvement do you have in mind? I offered three of the hypothetical improvements. Do you agree with them? Do you have some other ideas in mind?

 

[Bahman]

I think the problem here is, you started this Thread under Philosophy ,
when you really should start games like this in the Clubhouse,
we like to take things a little less seriously there, or was it their, or was it these,
may I suggest perhaps starting again with maybe a little variant , in the clubhouse,
it is a good question though.

I think s/he is pushing the right button at the right place.

 

[Bahman]

I was not talking about a “perfect” world. Of course I disagree with the premise that we “need” suffering to appreciate pleasure, but that is not the issue here.

To me suffering is necessary. Sorry if you take it otherwise.

That is good, but I was more interested in actual details. What kind of improvement do you have in mind?

Reality has layers. It will open to us when we are ready.

I offered three of the hypothetical improvements. Do you agree with them?

**1) Instead of having a blood and claw type of nutrition system, we all could simply utilize the energy received from the Sun and some other energy sources - like the wind. That would eliminate the fight for resources - a huge improvement. **

Possible. This coin has to show all its sides when it is flipped otherwise we cannot get through.

**2) Instead of the crude indicator that something went wrong with our body - notably the existence of pain - we could have a regeneration system, so a lost or damaged body part would re-grow when necessary. **

Possible. We might be responsible for this.

3) The one-cell organisms are practically immortal, they simply split and create their own replica. There is no reason not to have similar capability for multi-cell organisms, like us.

Possible. Do you really want to be in eternal hell, namely being immortal, when the reality that we could be exposed to it is limited? Death could be a gift when what is offered is less than what you can take.

Do you have some other ideas in mind?

Well, yes. Reality has infinite folds, so why you don’t take your part?

 

[Beryllos]

1. Instead of having a blood and claw type of nutrition system, we all could simply utilize the energy received from the Sun and some other energy sources - like the wind. That would eliminate the fight for resources - a huge improvement.

Even plants compete for resources and kill each other, though it is bloodless. For example, the tallest trees have more access to sunlight, and those in the undergrowth hang on for dear life. The injustice of it all!

 

[Bahman]

Even plants compete for resources and kill each other, though it is bloodless. For example, the tallest trees have more access to sunlight, and those in the undergrowth hang on for dear life. The injustice of it all!

Assume a infinite land a glorious sun and enough water as much as needed.

 

[Bradski]

My grandad used to say that it had to hurt to lose. Otherwise it wouldn’t feel good if you won. He was talking about football, but it’s applicable across the board. I think we need some pain in our lives to know the pleasure of being pain free.

But I agree that having some creatures required to eat others to live is hardly a great design. The ability to switch your fertility on and off would solve a lot of problems as well.

 

[Bahman]

My grandad used to say that it had to hurt to lose. Otherwise it wouldn’t feel good if you won. He was talking about football, but it’s applicable across the board. I think we need some pain in our lives to know the pleasure of being pain free.

**But I agree that having some creatures required to eat others to live is hardly a great design. **The ability to switch your fertility on and off would solve a lot of problems as well.

So they will eat you back. Problem is resolved.

 

[Hee_Zen]

My grandad used to say that it had to hurt to lose. Otherwise it wouldn’t feel good if you won. He was talking about football, but it’s applicable across the board.

I see it differently. Whether you win or lose is irrelevant (in a game, of course). What matters is how well you played the game. When I played chess, I was very happy to see my opponent to perform a beautiful combination - which resulted in my defeat. But that is just me.

I think we need some pain in our lives to know the pleasure of being pain free.

No one actually lives according to this principle. You do not get a hammer and pound your thumb - just because it feels so good when the pain stops. What you said is rationalizing, just like the fox said: “sour grapes”.

But I agree that having some creatures required to eat others to live is hardly a great design. The ability to switch your fertility on and off would solve a lot of problems as well.

It is a lousy “design”. Your idea of having a voluntary fertility is a great addition. Thanks.

 

[ChainBreaker]

My grandad used to say that it had to hurt to lose. Otherwise it wouldn’t feel good if you won. He was talking about football, but it’s applicable across the board. I think we need some pain in our lives to know the pleasure of being pain free.

But I agree that having some creatures required to eat others to live is hardly a great design. The ability to switch your fertility on and off would solve a lot of problems as well.

Blind natural evolution is not a very good designer. It’s simply (name removed by moderator)ut-output taking on various forms.

 

[Jim_Baur]

I do not believe we can design it any better than it is.

As a Christian, I believe God communicates with me and all of us.

I believe that God dwells in our souls and makes us better each day–if only we can hear God.

I believe it is His love that gives us life and makes us good!

I do **believe **He will make me love and love is the most powerful thing in existence.

I believe His promise is to love us now, which enables us to love and inherit eternal life here and now, but completed in Heaven.

I do not hold atheistic existential views and rejection of one’s will. I do not hope for totally passing out of existence (I do not know the views of any on this thread!)

 

[Jim_Baur]

The ancient Greeks could easily discern a logos and cosmos!

I can too.

Furthermore, I believe that* chesed*, ahave and agape has more logos than logos.

That love has more logos and cosmos that the Greek understanding of Logos.

I prefer the cosmos of love to merely reason or logos.

 

[Gregory_Olson]

Hey Hee Zen,

How’ve you been? I haven’t been keeping up with your other thread–how’s it going over there? I never was entirely sure whether my posts actually contributed to that discussion or were only a nuisance… Maybe a little bit of both?

Let’s try to create a much better world - at least on paper. As a first approximation let’s stick with already existing phenomena. Maybe later we could go off into fantasy land.

I imagine there’s some rhetoric in this new post, in addition to fun. But until you choose to demonstrate that it’s rightful place is truly in “Philosophy,” and not merely the clubhouse, I’ll take part in the innocent fun while I can…

Would you mind if I jumped right into fantasy land?
I’ve you’ve ever read C.S. Lewis’s Perelandra, that’s what I’m thinking of here. From the get-go, say there are no natural disasters or diseases, and human bodies never fail in any way. Everything fulfills it’s job perfectly–the human heart pumps blood perfectly, human hormones perfectly fulfill their purposes, and are never over or under-produced. Brains function perfectly, nerves function perfectly, muscles function perfectly. (I leave “perfect” undefined on purpose, so that it can suit both you and me–our ideas of perfect might differ.)
Like on Perelandra, we are true masters of all plants and animals, and physically need nothing else. All other living things too, are perfect, and like us never mature past their prime. And since our wills are perfect, there is no war or shame. In short, we are physically cared-for perfectly, give care perfectly, care for ourselves perfectly, and fulfill our own purposes perfectly.
Finally there is no death–at least not in the Christian sense. We are instead assumed directly into heaven, body and all. While all other living creatures still consume each other to live, and while we consume them too, they do so perfectly, if you can imagine this, and again in a Christian sense do not die.

Did I go overboard? Well, I thought, while we were dreaming… Perelandra’s one of my all-time favorites; I thought of it immediately after reading your post.

Rhetorical intent or not, this was a great thread idea.

-Greg

 

[ChainBreaker]

I believe in God the creator, in the sense that all contingent beings are dependent on God’s existence in-order to have an act.

I do not believe in God the intelligent designer. I don’t believe that God designed the universe. “The universe designs itself”. This is what scientists have discovered much to the embarrassment of those who think God is like a watchmaker (a very simplistic notion of God).

Yep!

 

[ChainBreaker]

I believe in God the creator, in the sense that all contingent beings are dependent on God’s existence in-order to have an act.

I do not believe in God the intelligent designer. I don’t believe that God designed the universe. “The universe designs itself”. This is what scientists have discovered much to the embarrassment of those who think God is like a watchmaker (a very simplistic notion of God).

Yep!

 

[Hee_Zen]

Hi, Greg

I imagine there’s some rhetoric in this new post, in addition to fun. But until you choose to demonstrate that it’s rightful place is truly in “Philosophy,” and not merely the clubhouse, I’ll take part in the innocent fun while I can…

Well, it is part of some broader questions, like does the universe imply an “intelligent designer” and “is this the best of the possible worlds”? Both of which are philosophical questions. I simply chose the successive approximation method, and I am interested what other people might think about it.

You chose to do the next part of the question, and went into the fantasy land. No problem with it.

We are instead assumed directly into heaven, body and all.

I see how tempting it is. But then what is the point of this earthly existence? I always thought that truly loving God would create everyone directly into heaven.