Let's play intelligent designer

[Gregory_Olson]

You say: “corrupted by sin”. But this is not the case. The world was cursed by God. There is no “natural” consequence of disobedience - unlike jumping off a high cliff would carry its own punishment of falling to your death. If I tell my child to behave in a certain manner, and he disobeys, that is no big deal. I am not a tyrant to throw a temper-tantrum over a bit of disobedience. I would not throw him out of the house for it.

Your idea of disobedience doesn’t fully sum up what’s happening in sin. A human being is an expression of God’s goodness, and nothing else. (What else is there?) As we separate ourselves from God, we don’t become something else, only something less. You even hit on it yourself: “spiritual death” is a good way to describe this.

Moreover, if the result of disobedience would be “fatal” for him (“spiritual death”?), then I would make it absolutely impossible to for him to disobey. I would not place that ominous “tree of knowledge” into easy reach - just like I would not allow him to get access to a loaded gun.

We’ve always had free will, Tree of Knowledge or no. But besides that, what a good idea! This way, God’s creation wouldn’t choose to love him–they’d be forced to! This is how I’ll propose to my wife–I’ll force her to marry me at gunpoint! Wouldn’t this still be love?
Why didn’t God just create a bunch of mindless robots that would automatically “love” him for all eternity?

You weren’t your usual perceptive self here, Hee Zen. Free will is necessary for love to be possible, which is what God is all about.

It is objectively true that pleasure is preferable to pain, or having a full stomach is better than go hungry, or being healthy is better than being sick… Here we talk about objective, biological terms, nothing “subjective” about them.

I’ll play devil’s advocate: Why is a healthy human being better than a lump of coal? After all, a human being, like a lump of coal, is only a part of a predictable and unalterable natural chain of cause and effect. There is no standard whatsoever to determine which one is better, or even what better means. It’s only a matter of your opinion! And even your opinion is just part of the whole mindless process…

An atheist’s moral system can only exist in his imagination. A Christian can claim that morality exists for real. By “real” I mean it applies to the universe like a law of physics applies to the universe. It’s absolute, and we are subject to it whether we want to be or not.

Why not? I don’t subscribe to the “might makes right” philosophy. The ancient Romans said: “Quod licet Iovi, not licet bovi” - and I reject this concept.

This isn’t a question of might makes right. Think of like: God established the moral law just as he established the law of gravity, just as he established you. You can deny these if you so choose, but they apply to you regardless.

My standards are based upon the principle of reciprocity.

What is the principle of reciprocity based on then? What authority does the principle of reciprocity have to be a moral standard? The only other answer besides"it’s a matter of my or other’s imagination" is “it was established by God.” (And in fact, it most certainly *wasn’t *established by God. I should do good for others whether they did any good for me or not.)

Your standards are based upon what you “think” that God commanded. If God would command to “slaughter all the men and boys, and all the women who knew men by sleeping with them, but keep all the virgins for your use” - then THAT would be your moral compass. And that “morality” is not based upon reason and arguments, it is based upon the brute force of: “obey and you will get rewarded; disobey and you will get punished” (eternally!). So, you see, I reject your professed “morality”. There is nothing “moral” about obeying someone who uses the “carrot and stick” method to force you to behave “morally”. There is nothing “moral” about obeying a Mafia enforcer who holds your family hostage. Morality cannot be “commanded” or “forced”.

Exactly! Which is why it isn’t. You can choose to reject God, otherwise an acceptance wouldn’t be real. Besides that, you’re correct–my standards are based in the Creator of the Universe.
And I still haven’t asked about that verse! I’ll do that now, before I forget… Watch for my question in Ask an Apologist…

-Greg