Let's Plays/Commentaries

[kantus12]

Hey all,

I’ve recently become more interested in my Catholic Faith, and I’ve (obviously) had to change my lifestyle in accordance with that. (You may have noticed one or two of my posts on this very subforum a little while ago). I’ve successfully eliminated the pornography element in my life, and have gone to Confession twice in the last month. However, there’s one or two fields that I’d like some opinions and/or clarification on, since I’m not sure whether or not they constitute theft of any kind, or if they do I am not certain whether they are serious enough to be mortal sins or are simply venal. The fields in question, in case you hadn’t guessed by the title, are Let’s Play videos and video commentaries of other sorts (especially recordings of Yu-Gi-Oh videos). I rather enjoy these and I’d rather know whether or not it’s acceptable to keep using them. The reason why I might consider these to be sinful is that well, Catholics are supposed to adhere to just laws, and I’d rather not infringe anyone’s copyright. On the other hand, even if the material has been taken illegally, is viewing of it a sin of the same magnitude? After all, one could argue that I could watch two people play a game of Yu-Gi-Oh in real life without buying any of their products, and that certainly wouldn’t be copyright infringement. Also, in many cases I have already purchased the game being played, in which case it would be hard to argue that I deprived the company of revenue.

I also watch a lot of review/opinion videos, but I’m also fairly certain those are legal, because criticism is protected by Fair Use, and besides, a video like that is literally just someone else’s opinion of something. Even if the review uses copyrighted images, it could still fall under Fair Use and even if it doesn’t, I could simply listen to the audio (which belongs to the creator) without watching said pictures.

So anyway, after all of that stuff, I guess I could sum up my points as follows:

1. Is it okay to watch Let’s Plays?
2. Is it okay to watch people playing games on programs such as Dueling Network/Devpro?
3. If it is not okay to do either or both of the above, is it a mortal sin to do so?

I add, finally, that whilst I know the difference between the types of sin, and I know the conditions necessary to qualify a sin as mortal, but the first condition has always seemed somewhat nebulous to me, simply because my naturally worry-wart nature likes to blow things out of all proportion, thereby confusing the definition of “grave import”.

Anyway, thank you for your time and patience in reading all of this. This is one of the friendliest places I’ve ever been to online, and I’m very grateful to you guys. The life I thought I simply couldn’t leave behind is already slipping from me, and though it is not gone yet I can now imagine a meaningful life without it.

God Bless,
kantus

 

[bzkoss236]

If Let’s Plays violated copyright laws, Youtube wouldn’t allow the mass number of them that are out there. I myself have done a few, hoping to get back into it, but so far work has me busy. As far as I know, there is no sin in watching, or even making, Let’s Plays.

 

[Kamaduck]

If Let’s Plays violated copyright laws, Youtube wouldn’t allow the mass number of them that are out there. I myself have done a few, hoping to get back into it, but so far work has me busy. As far as I know, there is no sin in watching, or even making, Let’s Plays.

I’d like to point out that just because youtube allows something does NOT mean that it is legal. Youtube can’t possibly keep all of the illegal content off. For instance, there are many fansubs of unlicensed animes that are uploaded to youtube, and that’s illegal.

However, commentary and review are protected by fair use (at least in America), so most Let’s Plays are perfectly legal. Game on.

 

[powerofk]

It’s hard to say. Really, the people in charge of enforcing copyright laws are the copyright holders. If the copyright holders see no copyright infringement (or believe that a given copyright infringement is actually free advertising for them), then they won’t make a fuss. If, however, the copyright holder sees copyright infringement that is harmful to the holder, then they can sue the person violating copyright.

Personally, I believe that most video game publishers would consider “Let’s Plays”/video walkthroughs to be free advertising, even if they may technically violate copyright laws. I think this is also true for the music recording industry and “music mash ups”. That’s why they don’t complain about them. I figure that they have the same moral standing as watching a friend play a game - that is, morally neutral.

However, I do have a warning for you regarding YouTube. If you have watched semi-pornographic material on YouTube in recent history - maybe for as long as 3 years ago (YouTube does generally try to block explicitly pornographic material, but semi-pornographic material that could still be used for sexual gratification is still there) - YouTube will keep similar videos on your “Recommended for You” list. As such, if you go to YouTube, be reminded that you could still be tempted by material that you had previously allowed to ensnare you.

 

[suko]

(U may have noticed one or two of my posts on this very subforum a little while ago).

Yes, yes I have, lol. Typically, I don’t think one should be making another thread that consists of things that have already been asked in a very recent thread (especially one that’s still on the 1st page, lol). U probably should’ve just bumped it and asked if u could get more opinions and/or clarifications from more people. XD

However, there’s one or two fields that I’d like some opinions and/or clarification on, since I’m not sure whether or not they constitute theft of any kind

Theft, imo, isn’t really the issue here. It’s as u said, infringing upon copyright law ~ For Catholics, that means, imo, disobeying/disregarding (without a good, valid reason) a just law to do what u want to do.
Imo, I think LPs (Let’s Plays), if they are an entire run-thru of a game, are currently still a bit of a gray area from a legal standpoint. Personally, I don’t like them (but I won’t get into those reasons since I don’t think they’re relevant to this discussion ). As far as court battles go, I don’t think there’s been one on this yet either to help on this issue. Therefore, I think one really needs to look at how transformative a LP work is and how it might effect the market of the actual game. For games that are less interactive, say a VN (Visual Novel) (and perhaps some RPGs), LPs need to be illegal since once u watch it, u probably won’t want to buy the game to play it. It’s almost like uploading an ENTIRE movie and commenting/reviewing it. Most games, though, I think are a bit too interactive that for most people, just watching them, won’t cause them to not buy them if they think they’re cool and whatnot. Thus, I would say yes, I think it would be wrong to watch a LP for a VN game and any others that may not have as much interaction from the user ~ jmho though. Here’s a great site that talks in depth about deciding whether a video is fair use or not: fairusetube.org/guide-to-youtube-removals/3-deciding-if-video-is-fair-use

video commentaries of other sorts (esp. recordings of Yu-Gi-Oh videos). I’d rather know whether or not it’s acceptable to keep using them. I also watch a lot of review/opinion videos.

Personally, I think these are fine if they’re short clips, but if they are an entire episode of raw, unedited footage… that’s just too much, imo. For things of this nature, you have to weigh in the 4 big things that a court will look at when deciding whether something is fair use or not:

1. the purpose and character of the use,
2. the nature of the copyrighted work,
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used, and
4. the effect of the use on the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

In any case, there’s really no clear-cut answer to a particular genre of videos, and thus, each video, I think, needs to be looked at on a case-by-case scenario applying these 4 aforementioned things.

On the other hand, even if the material has been taken illegally, is viewing of it a sin of the same magnitude?

If somebody stole a video from a store and gave it to u, would u accept it? To me, it’s like actively supporting the wrongdoings of others (though I probably wouldn’t say it’s of the same magnitude, but still wrong, nonetheless, imo).

1. Is it okay to watch people playing games on programs such as Dueling Network/Devpro?

Tbh, I didn’t even know what that those were until I googled it, lol. But yeah, I would think that each individual game would be copyrighted similar to how live sporting events are copyrighted and aren’t allowed to be shown or transmitted, etc. without express written consent of their approval (or however it goes, lol). Thus, I think u should probably ask the developers of Devpro, etc, if people recording games and uploading them are fine. I’d imagine they would be totally cool with it and would support it, in fact. But I would think it would be best to at least hear something from them first before jumping the gun and assuming things. xD

1. If it is not okay to do either or both of the above, is it a mortal sin to do so?

I don’t know if I would call any of what you’re asking about a “grave” matter, perhaps venial, though. A lot of it, I think, is a bit of gray area. Thus, I don’t think u would fulfill the 1st condition of mortal sin, and much less the 2nd (as long as u remain uncertain on things).

I have a brother, who has come with me into the Catholic faith. I do not want to commit an act of cruelty by forcing him down a path that makes him miserable. What on Earth should I do? I will pray for him, and look toward God for support. Perhaps that is the best I can do.

Took this quote above from your other thread since I wanted to comment on it. But yeah, u can’t force your brother to do anything. He has to be the one to decide for himself to willing walk down that “narrow path,” that sometimes, as a Christian today, can be extremely difficult with so many things that are pulling at us in different directions. My recommendation is to just be a good example to him (how u live your day-to-day life), and to pray for him. You don’t want to, or rather shouldn’t, try to enforce Catholic beliefs down his throat, but don’t be afraid at the same time to tell him that u don’t agree with something if he asks your opinion or thoughts on something. Just be gentle about it, and definitely don’t be over-the-top about it, lol, as that would make things worse for sure. However, it sounds like it’s just a matter of time, though, till he “breaks,” as u put it, especially if a person isn’t currently taking their faith seriously.

Anyway, I hope this has been at least a little help for ya!

 

[Kamaduck]

For games that are less interactive, say a VN (Visual Novel) (and perhaps some RPGs), LPs need to be illegal since once u watch it, u probably won’t want to buy the game to play it. It’s almost like uploading an ENTIRE movie and commenting/reviewing it.

I hadn’t thought of that, but you’re absolutely right. To me, though, a visual novel isn’t really a game. It’s more like downloading an anime or manga illegally, since the story will be the same each time.

Personally, I think these are fine if they’re short clips, but if they are an entire episode of raw, unedited footage… that’s just too much, imo. For things of this nature, you have to weigh in the 4 big things that a court will look at when deciding whether something is fair use or not:

1. the purpose and character of the use,
2. the nature of the copyrighted work,
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used, and
4. the effect of the use on the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

In any case, there’s really no clear-cut answer to a particular genre of videos, and thus, each video, I think, needs to be looked at on a case-by-case scenario applying these 4 aforementioned things.

This is also spot-on. The only way this is ever going to become more or less than a gray area is if somebody sues over it. If nobody does, we’ll never really know what is legal and what isn’t. And a lawsuit is highly unlikely, since for the most part any upset company will simply contact Youtube and tell them to take the video down.

Until then, I’d say just come at it from the perspective of “how can I support art” rather than “how much free stuff can I conceivably get without supporting a work financially”. And then just do your best to figure out whether a given use falls under fair use or not.

I do know that review/opinion videos like the Nostalgia Critic are legal. I’m almost totally positive of that.

Took this quote above from your other thread since I wanted to comment on it. But yeah, u can’t force your brother to do anything. He has to be the one to decide for himself to willing walk down that “narrow path,” that sometimes, as a Christian today, can be extremely difficult with so many things that are pulling at us in different directions. My recommendation is to just be a good example to him (how u live your day-to-day life), and to pray for him. You don’t want to, or rather shouldn’t, try to enforce Catholic beliefs down his throat, but don’t be afraid at the same time to tell him that u don’t agree with something if he asks your opinion or thoughts on something. Just be gentle about it, and definitely don’t be over-the-top about it, lol, as that would make things worse for sure. However, it sounds like it’s just a matter of time, though, till he “breaks,” as u put it, especially if a person isn’t currently taking their faith seriously.

 

[suko]

a visual novel isn’t really a game. since the story will be the same each time.

AHHH! pokes u with a stick for saying that… and continues poking

Most visual novels aren’t linear, or more appropriately called, Kinetic Novels (which generally feature non-interaction - no choices, etc. - by the player). I’d say most visual novels won’t give u the same story since many of them have multiple endings and routes based on the various combination of choices that the player has to choose throughout each play-thru (and some endings will unlock other things for future play-throughs), and some even have other elements to it such as turn-based battles like what u would see in a strategy RPG game, and some will feature things where u can interact with the screen like investigating what u see in the background, optional side quests, and even interacting with the people in the background like showing them clues or items that u may have found throughout the game.
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[SIGN] So it’s a game, darn it! finishes poking u [/SIGN]

 

[kantus12]

Thanks, guys. It’s nice to hear from you all. There’s a thing or two I’d like to clear up though. Dueling Network and Devpro well, are copyright-infringement, since they allow people to play Konami’s game with Konami’s cards without giving Konami money. This is the primary reason why I don’t use them myself anymore. However, Konami has not prosecuted them or (as far as I know) done anything about them. I know that there is a huge difficulty in getting something definitively off of the Internet, but since these two are pretty much the only places online where this can be done, it seems strange that neither of them have ever had action taken against them. I looked through the records, and the only incident I could find involved DN being threatened by a troll who pretended to be a Konami representative. Many people who I’ve spoken to seem to think that Konami sees it as free advertising, which certainly has some truth in it.

Finally, I’d like to say that, while I’m still unsure as to the status of uploaded games of Yugioh, they aren’t in the same league as pay-per-view television or television football games. This is because said shows are presented by people who demand payment for the right of watching them, whereas the people on Youtube who I am talking about freely choose to upload their games without charging. Challenges to their morality must come from the assertion that it is wrong to watch someone play a game that they haven’t paid for, because they certainly chose to put their gameplay up without charge.

So, to close off, I’d like to mention that I don’t want to seem like the sort of person who wants to see what he can get away with (although that feeling is certainly there). I want to know how much of my current way of life I ought to get rid of in the here and now. Even so, I don’t want to be the guy who sees whether or not he can still “get his fix” as long as he comes by it accidentally. Gah, it’s getting difficult to think…

Anyway, thank all of you for your comments. It’s highly interesting and very useful for me to be able to talk to other people about this.
God Bless,

kantus

 

[Kamaduck]

AHHH! pokes u with a stick for saying that… and continues poking

Most visual novels aren’t linear, or more appropriately called, Kinetic Novels (which generally feature non-interaction - no choices, etc. - by the player). I’d say most visual novels won’t give u the same story since many of them have multiple endings and routes based on the various combination of choices that the player has to choose throughout each play-thru (and some endings will unlock other things for future play-throughs), and some even have other elements to it such as turn-based battles like what u would see in a strategy RPG game, and some will feature things where u can interact with the screen like investigating what u see in the background, optional side quests, and even interacting with the people in the background like showing them clues or items that u may have found throughout the game.
…
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[SIGN] So it’s a game, darn it! finishes poking u [/SIGN]

I yeild! Any story that requires the viewer to make choices to progress is technically a game.

That said, we all like to experience playing most games. With a VN, 90% of the gameplay is reading and watching. By watching someone else play through all of the options, you’re essentially getting the exact same experience as if you’d played it yourself. That’s not the case with other genres, where all the little decisions you make are part of what makes the game enjoyable. Which is essentially exactly what you said, but that difference causes me to think of them as a different class of thing than most games.

Anyways. Kantus, given the murky legal nature of this stuff, I think our guiding principle should be what is good for the creators of the art we enjoy. Are you supporting someone else’s theft by watching a Yugioh duel, or are you just watching people play with cards they’ve already bought?

 

[suko]

Thanks, guys. It’s nice to hear from you all. There’s a thing or two I’d like to clear up though. Dueling Network and Devpro well, are copyright-infringement, since they allow people to play Konami’s game with Konami’s cards without giving Konami money. Many people who I’ve spoken to seem to think that Konami sees it as free advertising, which certainly has some truth in it.

Hmm, I’m not entirely convinced that it’s copyright infringement. If I understand correctly, it seems what the Dueling Network/Devpro have done, is that they’ve created some kind of system/battle arena in which u can play the card games with sound effects and special effects and all that cool jazz, right? If so, then I think this could possibly fall under fair use since it seems like a transformatively unique way in playing these cards, thus, altering the “original substance” of how the game was meant to be played. But has it been altered enough? None of us can really say for 100% certainty without a court case to look back on. Also, it seems to be of non-commercial use (no money gained by them, right?), and I would think it could be looked upon as “free advertising” as u said, which possibly could help to spur card game sales as well, as opposed to being in competition with it ~ which is also actually a possibility and would work against it as being fair use, but I just don’t know, or rather, don’t have enough info to say that that’s true or not. All things considered, though, I think this “might” be closer to being fair use of the card game. But I don’t know… I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t think even a lawyer would know for sure. However, I think Dueling Network/Devpro should still do the right thing and ask for permission to utilize Konami’s cards, even if they might be protected under fair use.

Finally, I’d like to say that, while I’m still unsure as to the status of uploaded games of Yugioh, they aren’t in the same league as pay-per-view television or television football games. the people on Youtube who I am talking about freely choose to upload their games without charging. Challenges to their morality must come from the assertion that it is wrong to watch someone play a game that they haven’t paid for, because they certainly chose to put their gameplay up without charge.

If I understand correctly, Dueling Network/Devpro are just some kind of a system that allows players to battle against one another correct? And to me, it seems they “might” be using the card games in a (possibly) transformative fashion that could make it fair use. And if that’s true, then u now have to look at who the creator is of this ENTIRE transformative work piece, which are the developers of Dueling Network/Devpro. So each “match” or any image of gameplay footage while your using the Dueling Network/Devpro is owned and copyrighted by them (including the cards, so I don’t think we can look at the players as having stolen the Konami cards anymore or playing with free cards that they didn’t pay for). Therefore, permission I think should be granted first from them in order to legally upload the videos to Youtube or where ever. Having said all this, there’s a lot of murky areas here, a lot of “if’s” and “possibly’s” that I don’t think it’s worth it, especially when u take into account what u said here which I agree with, “Challenges to their morality must come from the assertion that it is wrong to watch someone play a game that they haven’t paid for.” <— That’s the safest route to take imo, and it would be a good basis as to why a person shouldn’t watch the videos anymore.

So, to close off, I’d like to mention that I don’t want to seem like the sort of person who wants to see what he can get away with (although that feeling is certainly there).

Lol, we understand! This is generally what happens to people sometimes when they returns to the faith seriously. Believe me, it happened to me. Although, I think I was much worse since I used to scruple over everything, like if I scratched my head, and a strand of hair fell to the ground, I would think that I HAD to find and pick up that little hair piece and properly dispose of it in the trash at all costs (or else I’m sinning for not cleaning up after myself)! LOL.

I yeild!

…puts stick away

By watching someone else play through all of the options, you’re essentially getting the exact same experience as if you’d played it yourself.

There is one VN that I know of that has an RPG style building up of the main character where u can do all kinds of training, and studying to build-up your stats and whatnot ~ it’s fun to say the least, lol ~ and wouldn’t be anywhere near as fun though to watch someone else building up their stats as opposed to doing it yourself. ^.^ But yeah, the story is the “heart and soul” of a VN, and if u watch it thru a Youtube video (or where ever), you’re pretty much set. That’s why they all must be banned from being shared online! And I still would argue for some RPGs as well, lol, (especially the old-school ones) since the story is generally the centerpiece of them as well. I have a friend that doesn’t bother to play them, and just watches them instead. O_O