Let's talk about forgiveness

[Prodigal_Son]

When you say that he will likely fall, do you mean that you might likely fall?

What I mean is that your husband is a man who experiences an addiction to pornography. Men with such addictions often very sincerely promise to stop, and then end up looking at porn again. I am just talking about statistics. It’s possible your husband won’t fall again, yes. It’s possible that your husband is exceptional, and will never struggle with lust again. But it’s probably unlikely.

That’s not me projecting my situation onto yours. That’s just realism.

That’s the problem I have with the continued dialogue on CA - the presumption that at any moment the addict will be powerless, fall, and his wife will have to mop up the mess. That’s hopeless talk.

No, it’s not. It would be hopeless talk, if our hope were in good marriages or good spouses or good sexual relationships or good behaviors. But our hope is in eternal unity with God, and our hope is in Heaven.

God does not want me to have a good marriage, as such. He wants me to love Him and be loved by Him. If my having a good marriage will get in the way of His love for me, by all means, He would much prefer to mess up my marriage than to be separated from me for eternity.

My hope that my wife won’t be bitter toward me is just that: a hope. But I can’t base my life around that hope, because my wife makes her own decisions. She might always be bitter, but that does not mean that I can’t live a beautiful and inspired and saintly life.

I believe you all are better than that. I believe my husband is better than that.

Well, I don’t think any of us (men or women) are better than that. We all fall into patterns of sin, and these patterns rarely vanish in a moment. Paul himself admitted this struggle, both in his discussion of his thorn in the flesh, and in the passage in Romans where he says that he does what he does not want to do, and fails to do what he wants to do.

So I guess all I want to say is that, if I happen to never fall into pornography again (please God, make it happen!), that will not be because I try really hard or because I commit myself to loving my wife – I’ve done those things many times before, and in time I fell again. If I never fall again, it will be because I have a deep and abiding relationship with God, and because my hope is in Him.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

And really, I was hoping for some good stories about forgiveness, like some that have been shared here. Success stories.

The reason for this is that I have found, that reading a lot of the threads (particularly on pornography addiction) here has left me kind of depressed. There is a lot of pain here.

Now, I know that we all vent when we are in pain, but I just hoped to start a thread of some good news.

I really appreciate the good stories of forgiveness.

Sorry if I’m deflecting the thread.

 

[PumpkinPies37]

Yes, you are deflecting the thread.

Prodigal_Son, I while I appreciate you taking the time to try and teach me all about porn addiction, I can assure you (like I assured the guy on the previous page), that I have read just about every book published on the topic.

Getting a dissertation about the nature of the addiction every time I even use my situation as a point of context is really getting tiresome.

I know.

I know.

I know.

I did not just fall off a Catholic girl turnip truck with my knee socks and back pack.

Nor do we need ‘tips’ on how to spice up our marriages (that one’s not for you Prodigal).

Honestly.

 

[josh987654321]

A few months ago, I posted about my husbands revelation to me that he was addicted to pornography. That was a VERY hard time and I’m so thankful that there were so many kind words for me, and so many assurances of prayers.

Your prayers have been wonderful, and things are going very well now. He is in recovery and is fully aware of the pain he caused.

As horrific as it was, I’m actually grateful now for the whole experience, because I realize now that I had idolized my husband to the point that any FLAW in his nature or behavior - and my whole world would fall apart. That was wrong. Really wrong of me.

I’m baby stepping toward forgiveness and we are baby stepping toward trust again.

I’d just like to hear from you all, on how you view forgiveness. I aim for this thread to be constructive and full of lots of good stuff. Hopeful advice on reconciliation and self-awareness and humility.

If you have forgiven someone for something destructive that they did for a very long time, or a short time, or even one time, that they are now sorry for (and are taking appropriate actions to never do again) please, PLEASE share.

Thank you in advance.

Hi Pumpk(name removed by moderator)ies37

I would like to share with you some previous posts of mine on the following topic of forgiveness that had helped me greatly.

Post 1
Post 2

Also in regards to your husbands pornography addiction, I hope you don’t mind if I share with you some tips that had helped me greatly in becoming and remaining chaste.

Post 1
Post 2

I hope I have helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[PumpkinPies37]

Hi Pumpk(name removed by moderator)ies37

I would like to share with you some previous posts of mine on the following topic of forgiveness that had helped me greatly.

Post 1
Post 2

Also in regards to your husbands pornography addiction, I hope you don’t mind if I share with you some tips that had helped me greatly in becoming and remaining chaste.

Post 1
Post 2

I hope I have helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Thank you very much. This is excellent. Thank you, thank you, this is what I was looking for. I know other people will thank you too.

 

[josh987654321]

Thank you very much. This is excellent. Thank you, thank you, this is what I was looking for. I know other people will thank you too.

Thank you

God Bless.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Yes, you are deflecting the thread.

Prodigal_Son, I while I appreciate you taking the time to try and teach me all about porn addiction, I can assure you (like I assured the guy on the previous page), that I have read just about every book published on the topic.

Getting a dissertation about the nature of the addiction every time I even use my situation as a point of context is really getting tiresome.

I know.

I know.

I know.

I did not just fall off a Catholic girl turnip truck with my knee socks and back pack.

Earlier in the thread you seemed to equate forgiving someone with making yourself vulnerable to him again. That seems like a false equation to me. In commenting on this, I feel like I am within the scope of the thread. I feel that forgiving (for example) my wife has everything to do with my own personal relationship with God, and very little to do with my hopes or expectations for my wife’s future behavior.

Aside from that, I defer to your judgment about what you need to hear. I apologize if I have offended you.

 

[PumpkinPies37]

Earlier in the thread you seemed to equate forgiving someone with making yourself vulnerable to him again. That seems like a false equation to me. In commenting on this, I feel like I am within the scope of the thread. I feel that forgiving (for example) my wife has everything to do with my own personal relationship with God, and very little to do with my hopes or expectations for my wife’s future behavior.

Aside from that, I defer to your judgment about what you need to hear. I apologize if I have offended you.

Okay, thanks. So, you’re okay forgiving freely, regardless of your wife’s future behavior? In a way I get that. No one can control another person. But, isn’t that what a contract (in marriage in this case) is for?

Just a broad question here, but if we are to forgive our spouse of anything and everything, then is there room in any of that for expectation?

I am speaking strictly theoretically, here.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Okay, thanks. So, you’re okay forgiving freely, regardless of your wife’s future behavior? In a way I get that. No one can control another person. But, isn’t that what a contract (in marriage in this case) is for?

I’m not sure what the question is. Are you asking whether marriage is a contract with the goal of controlling another person? No, I don’t think so. My wife freely promises to be true to me. But she is completely free to break her promise. I have absolutely no control over her, and I shouldn’t have any control over her. I mean, I suppose she could ask me to hold her accountable, and of course I should object to her breaking her promise to me, but I don’t have any control here. If I try to gain control, then that will likely enough just make me frustrated.

Just a broad question here, but if we are to forgive our spouse of anything and everything, then is there room in any of that for expectation?

For hope, yes. For expectations, in the sense of standards for conduct, yes. If my wife started flirting with other men, I would not mince any words about how unacceptable that is. It is my duty to admonish sinners; that is a spiritual work of mercy.

But there is another meaning of the word “expectations”. I would not expect my wife to change, simply because I knew she had been doing something wrong and I told her that. I would hope for change, and I would look for signs of change, but I wouldn’t expect it. Maybe that’s just me – I certainly don’t claim that I have this all figured out.

As for forgiving everything, Jesus taught that it is our duty to forgive. He did not say that our forgiveness is conditional on the person’s conduct changing. He said we need to forgive, period. When I don’t forgive, it hurts me more than the other person. As you said, bitterness is addictive.

Even if we forgive, that doesn’t mean that the next offense will just “roll off” us. We can be hurt again, but then we need to forgive again. And our expectations don’t matter here. If I were being tortured every day at a concentration camp, it would be best for me if I forgave my torturers each and every day – even though I knew they would do the same thing tomorrow. Although, gee, I hope our marriages don’t get as bad as that!

I am speaking strictly theoretically, here.

 

[PumpkinPies37]

The term forgiveness assumes different meanings depending on either the context or the stage of our salvation journey. Thus, forgive could mean:
I: quickly recover from a hurt nursing no grudge
II: not detest the doer of a detestable deed
III: not deny love to an enemy in dire need
IV: save dying enemy at the cost of own life.

This is very interesting. In these terms then, I feel forgiving must be very easy. Reminds me of what Gregory Popcak says about forgiveness…(paraphrased from St. Thomas Aquinas)

“quelling the natural desire for the other person to be mowed down by a bus”. lol.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

“quelling the natural desire for the other person to be mowed down by a bus”. lol.

 

[Petaro]

Petaro,

While I agree with you on the tenants of forgiveness, and I thank you for sharing them, I really wonder why you would find it necessary to try and educate me on porn addiction.
My friend, please understand that I have read almost everything thing there is to read about pornography addiction because I want so much to help my spouse. Now, you and I both know that no two recoveries are the same. My husband may not have to stay away from a computer (who can do that, really?), or liken it to whiskey. You may have to do those things.
Giving me tips like “draw his sexuality back to your marriage” is really kind of stepping over a boundary. Kind of off topic, too. Is that what you want your wife to do? Then you really need to tell her that, and not post it here.
Seriously. lol.
Since you brought it up though, I will share (now that I have vast knowledge in porn addiction, unfortunately) that to “draw his sexuality back to the marriage” may be a very WRONG thing to do given the nature of the addiction, and the state of the marriage in general.
I really don’t want to pick on you here, friend, but I really had to state the previous for the sake of the thousands or more people who may view this post over time. Given that this is an epidemic and all.

The really sad thing about this, is that when a wife like me posts about pornography addiction, I run the risk of being warned against “being hysterical” and other terminology that borders on sexism. “Hysterical”? Really? Didn’t people stop referring to an upset woman as “hysterical” about 30 years ago?

And yes, I have every right to be upset. Heartbroken, even.

As someone who has lived through this hell and is dealing with it in a healthy, positive manner, I really wish that a more appropriate dialogue, without creepy undertones and sexist jargon could be conducted here on CA, for the healing of all involved.

This is a huge problem. Huge. And I think there is so much more to be discussed in an educated, mature manner. I see a lot of pain on these forums regarding porn and all the pain it causes, but not many stories of people who are surviving it and coming out stronger. Yes, M. Fradd’s book was good, and an excellent start to tacking this problem, but in my opinion, there was not enough focus on how wives can heal. Not even close.

I am very sorry that my post has hurt you. It is difficult to know at what level a poster is on in a public forum, and I sincerely regret that you have seen some of my comments as sexist. They were not meant to be hurtful in any way. Public forums are so impersonal and don’t allow for a full understanding of any person’s personal situation.
You are incorrect if you felt I was expressing from personal experience with my loving wife, nor has sexual addiction been an issue in my life. This may be why I was so off note in my advice to you. I will just shut up and pray for you in your suffering. Again sorry if I have in any way hurt you with my post.

 

[DAML72]

I’ve learned, with great difficulty, that forgiveness is not a feeling it’s a choice.
You choose to forgive, then do it.
I’ve also learned that forgiveness does not depend on the forgiven being sorry for what they’ve done - or I feel they’ve done - to me. I need to forgive regardless.
I’m still a work in progress, especially on that last part.
God bless you and your husband, and heal your marriage.

This. For me, it’s a daily struggle to forgive my ex-husband and the woman who lured him away from his family. The amount of pain that man has caused me over 22 years, not to mention the trauma and emotional injury he/they have caused my children and the generational effects it will have…

You just have to do it - you have to pray for a forgiving heart. You have to say that you forgive, even if you don’t feel it. And, most importantly, you have to remember the mercy that God has shown you - that is the mercy and love that you must strive to show towards your husband. We all sin - and to be worthy of forgiveness, we must forgive ourselves.

 

[DAML72]

Earlier in the thread you seemed to equate forgiving someone with making yourself vulnerable to him again. That seems like a false equation to me. In commenting on this, I feel like I am within the scope of the thread. I feel that forgiving (for example) my wife has everything to do with my own personal relationship with God, and very little to do with my hopes or expectations for my wife’s future behavior.

Aside from that, I defer to your judgment about what you need to hear. I apologize if I have offended you.

I agree with this. Forgiving someone and making yourself vulnerable again to someone who has hurt you are two different things. It seems maybe you are asking for advice regarding the second. Are there support boards for spouses of pornography addiction you can go to? This forum deals with infidelity, but it may be a helpful guide for regaining trust. survivinginfidelity.com/ In any case, it’s a process - and not an easy one.

I will pray for you and your marriage.