Let's talk about Original Sin

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Here’s the relevent part from Pius XII, Humani Generis (emphasis added):
“Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion (polygenism) can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.” (Pius XII, Humani Generis, 37)
The statement seems to waffle a bit as to outright rejection of polygenism. But the “sin actually committed” part is crystal clear: the Church teaches that the act of Original Sin actually happened. It is not a metaphor, according to the Church back then. Is that still the teaching today?
 
The statement seems to waffle a bit as to outright rejection of polygenism. But the “sin actually committed” part is crystal clear: the Church teaches that the act of Original Sin actually happened. It is not a metaphor, according to the Church back then. Is that still the teaching today?
Original Sin and what it implies is, I believe. The specifics surrounding it get foggier.
 
Yes, your question (objection) is exactly what I thought you might be driving at. And it’s a perfectly good objection. And all I know is that there has been much speculation down the ages over the matter.

The issue, BTW, does not even hinge on evolution, but only on the evidence that creatures suffered and died before mankind had come into being, through whatever mechanism.

Myself,** I don’t believe that God has given us fossil evidence that lies, nor do I believe that God has given us scripture that lies, or a Church that lies.** So, that requires that this seeming paradox be resolved. I have no answer other than to say that God is not bound by cause and effect, nor by time and space. The Eucharist is clear testimony to this unboundedness. Mankind, through Adam and Eve, chose a world in which God’s presence was hidden. The question you raise is only one aspect of God granting their wish.

I hope you get some better answers. 🙂
Indeed, but he did not promise us infallible scientists 🙂

Peace and God Bless.
 
Two problems as I see it.
  1. There is no indication that physical death would not have occured prior to the first parents fall. What the text is refering to is that Adam and Eve would die a special kind of death. The hebrewism (sp?) is that they would die die (some times translated to ‘die the death’). This different kind of death would have to be compaired to something, therefore natural death was already known.
  2. You cannot limit God’s actions to a single time forward. It is still possible that the effects of the sin of Adam and Eve were transmitted back to the beginning of creation sucking grace out of the world. Just as the actions of Christ were the driving force of grace to the original OT types of sacrafice transmitted back from the cross.
I’m not a theologian so I’m open to any correction of these propositions.

Thanks 🙂
 
  1. There is no indication that physical death would not have occured prior to the first parents fall. What the text is refering to is that Adam and Eve would die a special kind of death. The hebrewism (sp?) is that they would die die (some times translated to ‘die the death’). This different kind of death would have to be compaired to something, therefore natural death was already known.
This would seem to contradict what is presented in the Catechism, which says, as a result of this first bad choice, "Harmony with creation is broken; visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay.” and “Death makes it’s entrance into human history” Catechism ¶400.

There does not appear any indication of an alternative or “spiritual” form of death in the Church teaching on this matter. It seems to be clearly indicating a physical condition that now occurs to humanity and to all creation as well.
  1. You cannot limit God’s actions to a single time forward. It is still possible that the effects of the sin of Adam and Eve were transmitted back to the beginning of creation sucking grace out of the world. Just as the actions of Christ were the driving force of grace to the original OT types of sacrafice transmitted back from the cross.
Again, there is no inference to this in the Catechism. Sounds sort of “Sci-fi Channel” to me. Is it possible? Well, if you believe that God can do all things, then I guess so. Is it the official teaching of the Church? Not to my knowledge.

Thanks for your response. No, you didn’t kill the thread. Yet. 😃
 
It seems to me that human being are the only part of creation that were meant to be immortal. Our sould remain immortal, but our physical bodies were comdemned to death in the Fall. Our immortality is part of what makes us special, what makes us “in the image of God.” Why would God have made all other life immortal? There’s no reason for it.
 
This would seem to contradict what is presented in the Catechism, which says, as a result of this first bad choice, "Harmony with creation is broken; visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay.” and “Death makes it’s entrance into human history” Catechism ¶400.

It seems to be clearly indicating a physical condition that now occurs to humanity and to all creation as well.
SNP,

There is a danger in focusing on specific passages of the Catechism (or an body of work for that matter) to the exclusion of others, because you might end up getting the wrong impression.

The Church does not teach that before the primordial sin there was NO death. The Church teaches that before the primordial sin man was not subject to death due to a preternatural gift given by God. In fact,implicit in the doctrine of the preternatural gift of immortality, is the notion that man, being partly made of matter, would naturally wear out and decompose.

There is no indication that other forms of matter did not wear out, decompose, change, or, in the case of animals: die.

For instance here is another passage from the Catechism. Paragraph 310:
But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.
Note that “physical evil” is a term of art which denotes the privation of a due good. Hence losing my arm is a physical evil, since in the normal course of things I am constituted in my nature to have two arms. We must be careful not to attribute to the concept of “physical evil” the perjorative value of “evil” that we are used to when thinking about “moral evil.”

So, from the Catechism passage above, we see the possibility that pre-fallen creation could by Divine providence incorporate certain physical evils into the plan of progressive perfection. But note, too, that strictly speaking the death of an animal can be considered a physical evil in one sense and not in another sense. In one sense the death is the privation of the life-principle which due to the animal since it has “animate and sensate soul”. But in another sense the death of an animal (even man) is not a physical evil because matter is so constitued by nature as to be transitory and subject to decomposition.

What is absolutely abhorent (and a clear physical evil) is the separation of the the soul from the body in man, because we are consituted as a whole being (a body and soul composite), such that our “person” is inextricably described by both body and soul. Even though our material part should be subject to decay, and eventually death, it was fitting that we were given the preternatural gift of immortality to preserve our integral nature.

VC

P.S.
As an aside, it has been noted before that the Genesis account regarding the fall contains an interesting tidbit that has implications in your discussion of death. God’s warning not to eat the fruit “lest ye die” and the serpents contradiction of that seems nonsensical if there was no death in the world for our first parents to have observed. In my opinion this is not really an “argument” just an interesting observation and implication. I think one could argue that the preternatural gift of infused knowledge possesed by our first parents would allow them to comprehend death even if there were no current examples of it.
 
It seems to me that human being are the only part of creation that were meant to be immortal. Our sould remain immortal, but our physical bodies were comdemned to death in the Fall. Our immortality is part of what makes us special, what makes us “in the image of God.” Why would God have made all other life immortal? There’s no reason for it.
Again, I refer you to the Catechism:

“Harmony with creation is broken; visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay.” Catechism ¶400.”

This teaching finds support in Paul’s letter to the Romans:
“for creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it, in hope that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God.”
Romans 8:20-21

I’m not asserting anything of my own here. I’m just trying to find out what the official church teaching is; and it seems clear the teaching is that death for both humans and creation entered the world through original sin.
 
Again, I refer you to the Catechism:

“Harmony with creation is broken; visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay.” Catechism ¶400.”

This teaching finds support in Paul’s letter to the Romans:
“for creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it, in hope that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God.”
Romans 8:20-21

I’m not asserting anything of my own here. I’m just trying to find out what the official church teaching is; and it seems clear the teaching is that death for both humans and creation entered the world through original sin.
But neither of those quotations actually say “death”. Decay and death are two different things. Slavery to corruption is vastly different than death.

All of Creation has indeed been corrupted. Man now fights the world instead of living in harmony with it. Creation is at the mercy of the corruption of men. Men abuse the world, destroy the world, not to mention each other. Obviously this was not the way it was supposed to be.

Death couldn’t possibly have come to all life after the fall. Since man and all of the creatures of the world were given all of the green plants to eat. By eating the plants they would by killing the plants, which are alive. Therefore death of a sort did exist before the fall. Not the death of a soul, but the end of a life nonetheless.
 
This would seem to contradict what is presented in the Catechism, which says, as a result of this first bad choice, "Harmony with creation is broken; visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay.” and “Death makes it’s entrance into human history” Catechism ¶400.

There does not appear any indication of an alternative or “spiritual” form of death in the Church teaching on this matter. It seems to be clearly indicating a physical condition that now occurs to humanity and to all creation as well.
The complete quote for this section is as follows:
The Catechism:
400The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286
Just where does this say there was no natural death in the world? This paragraph appears to be about man, the relations between man and woman and the relation between man and creation. Death does certainly make its entrance into human history. Man will now be subject to death. How is this not clear? :rolleyes:
Again, there is no inference to this in the Catechism. Sounds sort of “Sci-fi Channel” to me. Is it possible? Well, if you believe that God can do all things, then I guess so. Is it the official teaching of the Church? Not to my knowledge.

Thanks for your response. No, you didn’t kill the thread. Yet. 😃
This second part was just speculation. Take it or leave it. I was just musing.:whistle:
 
Just another thought about the death of animals:

The notion that the death of plants and animals is contrary to God’s plan for creation seems a bit odd to me considering the Old Testament wherein God instructs His people to offer sacrifices to Him. Obviously the reason for a sacrifice was because of man’s fallen state, but the kind of sacrifice is what catches my attention. God instructed the people to take the best animal of the flock and first fruits of the harvest and kill it. Great detail is provided about separating the meat from the blood, each for a purpose. A burnt offering is described as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. Doesn’t that seem a bit at odds with the idea that the death of plants and animals would be contrary to the plan of God (i.e. God designed it such that these should not die, but then wants these deaths to occur)?

Consider also that Jesus helped his desciples catch fish. Not just to they themselves could eat, but filling their nets so full that they couldn’t even bring the net into the boat. Similarly, the Bible describes God “blessing” people with large flocks and such, obviously providing people with the animals for the purpose of killing and eating them.

One might argue that perhaps God was merely accepting that the death of plants and animals now occurs, but even that argument falls flat when we consider Jesus’ teaching on divorce: God allowed divorce in early times. Then Jesus explained to us that it was only allowed because of the hardness of man’s heart, and then explained that it was no so from the beginning. Wouldn’t it make sense, if plant and animal death was also “not so from the beginning”, that Jesus might have taken the opportunity to reveal that to us as well?
 
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