Let's talk about primacy of honour

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Yes, the 6th Canon mentions Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch. Jerusalem is only mentioned as having an honorary title because of the place of death of our Lord. Constantinople – as the capital – was only a year old at the time. Pentarchy status? This is the stuff of legend, or wishful thinking my friend…
Legends? Wishful thinking? Maybe you are misreading what I post
“Originally Posted by Ignatios
Pentarchy was not from the beginning, but instead there was three pre-eminent Churches ( Rome, Alexandria and Antioch) , this is clear in the canons of the 1st E.C. even Jerusalem was mentioned,”
It is clear that I spoke of the “PRE-EMINENT” Churches and not the Pentarchy, “IN THE BEGINNING THAT IS”
And here we have(in bold) the exact argument that the Orthodox wish to cite against Catholics. So – as you assert – eventhough the Pentarchy wasnt contrived till Chalcedon in the mid 5th Century, it was always held by the church evethough the make no note of it?
In the following I will make couple approaches in attempt to draw a clear picture for you,
Take for instance,
  1. Pope Infallability, ( according to your church the RCC) it came to be in the year 1870 or was it all along?.
  2. Purgatory was it from the beginning or it came to be in the 16th century.
  3. Immaculate Conception in the year in the year 1854 or was it all along.
You accepted the above according to your church, although they were not declared as dogma until the prescribed years above, you accepted them as they were as such all along. Why do you find it so strange that the action of Pentarchy was before they recognized and incorporated it as such.

This what they call double standard.

Let me add further by “copying and pasting “for you and highlight some words since there is a clear evidence that you are not reading or you are ignoring the Text that it doesn’t agree with you.
Let us take a look at the the sixth(6) canon of the first Ecumenical Council and see if there is anything that would show that three was an old custom that lead to the Pentarchy,

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“Let the ancient customs prevail which were in vogue in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, to allow the bishop of Alexandria to have authority over all these parts, since this is also the treatment usually accorded to the bishop of Rome. Likewise with reference to Antioch,
So as we see that the Pentarchy is a results of an ancient custom, we see in the above a recognition of three of them…
And here is a part of the Interpretation of this canon:
Interpretation.[6]
The present Canon ordains that the old customs of the three Patriarchs are to be kept in vogue, chiefly and mainly as regarding the Patriarch of Alexandria, and secondly as regarding the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Patriarch of Rome, succinctly and comprehensively. (Concerning the Patriarch of Jerusalem the present Council devote special and separate treatment in its c. VII; and concerning the Patriarch of Constantinople the Second Council set forth its views in its c. III). So that the Patriarch (whom it calls a Bishop here, owing to the fact that it had not yet become customary to designate one by calling him the Patriarch[7]) of Alexandria came to have authority over all the bishops and metropolitans in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis. In fact, the same custom also came to prevail with regard to the Patriarch of Rome[8] in that he was allowed to have authority and presidency over all the occidental bishops and metropolitans. Likewise the Patriarch of Antioch is given authority over the bishops and metropolitans of Syria, of Middle Syria, of each of the two regions called Cilicia, of Mesopotamia, and of all the other dioceses subject to his jurisdiction. The present Canon, in fact, commands that not only the privileges of these Patriarchs are to be preserved, but even the privileges of other provinces and churches that are subject to the metropolitans. What is said of the Patriarchs in existence is also true of the independent Patriarchs, then and now — that is to say, the autocephalous Patriarchs, such as those of Asia, of Pontus, of Thrace, of Cyprus, of Africa, and of other countries. (Though others say that the Canon names here also other provinces, embraced, concisely speaking, in the dioceses subordinate to the other two Patriarchs, of Constantinople and of Jerusalem;

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Now how about the 7th Canon and its interpretation concerning Jerusalem:
7.
Inasmuch as a custom has prevailed, and an ancient tradition, for the Bishop in Aelia to be honored, let him have the sequence of honor, with the Metropolitan having his own dignity preserved.
(Ap. c. XXXIV; cc. II, III of the 2nd; c. VIII of the 3rd; c. XXVIII of the 4th; c. XXXVI of the 6th; and c. XIX of Antioch.)

Interpretation.
The present Canon is susceptible of two different interpretations. For Balsamon and the Anonymous annotator of the Canons, with whom some Papists (i.e., Roman Catholics, as they are called in common parlance) and Calvinists agree, have interpreted it to mean that inasmuch as an ancient tradition and custom has prevailed for the Bishop of Aelia (i.e., of Jerusalem)[10] to be specially honored on account of the fact that the Lord became incarnate and suffered therein, and the salvatory declaration came forth therefrom through the sacred Apostles into all the world, let him have the honor next after the preceding one, even in subsequent times, yet only honor without any authority and office, because the authority and office ought to be preserved to the Metropolitan of Palestine whose seat was the metropolis called Caesarea[11] of Straton, to whom, as they say, Jerusalem was subject. That is to say, just as c. XII of Chalcedon prescribes that in the case of as many cities as received by virtue of imperial letters the honor of being entitled to the name metropolis, the bishops thereof were the only ones allowed to enjoy the honor, whereas the rights proper thereto were to be preserved to the real metropolis, in the same way as Marcianus (an emperor of the Eastern Empire) honored Chalcedon, and Valentinian (another emperor) honored Nicaea, according to Act 13 of the Council. But Zonaras and others would have it that just as the preceding Canon accorded seniority to the bishops of Alexandria and of Antioch, or rather to say renewed it, as an innovation (for the seniority of Rome was not renewed, because, as we have said, it had been left intact and unchanged), so and in like manner the present Canon bestowed a special honor on Jerusalem. This is tantamount to saying that just as that Canon sanctioned their being granted not only patriarchal privileges and honors, but also the order of precedence of such honors, in that the bishop of Rome came first, the bishop of Alexandria second, the bishop of Antioch third, so did this Canon sanction the granting to Jerusalem not only of patriarchal privileges and honors but also the order of precedence of such honors. On this account it did not say, let him have (special) honor, but “let him have the sequence of honor.” That is the same as saying, let him have fourth place in the sequence of honor after the other three. The expression “with the Metropolis having its own dignity preserved” denotes that this patriarchal honor is not one attaching to the person and individual (concerning which see the second footnote to c. VI of the present Council), but is consecrated to the metropolis of Jerusalem, so as to provide for its devolving to all the bishops successively acceding to the throne, and not to this or that person alone. ***Witnesses to the fact that Jerusalem was a metropolis are both Josephus, who says, in his book VII on the Jews, that it was a large city and the metropolis of the entire country of the Jews; and Philo, who says that it was the metropolis, not of a single land of Judea, but also of a plurality of lands. For the Apostolic throne of Jerusalem not only stands first in nearly the whole world, but also enjoyed patriarchal privileges from the beginning, and still enjoys them even today. First, because it had provinces subject to it, and a diocese which belonged to the Patriarch. Hence it was that the neighboring officials of the churches, and not the bishop of Caesarea, ordained Dion bishop of Jerusalem when Narcissus departed. But when Narcissus reappeared, again he was called by the brethren, according to Eusebius, and not by the Brother, or the bishop of Caesarea. Narcissus, by the way, held a council with fourteen bishops concerning Easter before the First Ecumenical Council was held. Secondly, because the Bishop of Jerusalem was the first to sign at the First Ecumenical Council, while Eusebius of Caesarea was the fifth. And, generally speaking, metropolitans change round in the order of signatures, and in the places of seats at council meetings, and in the order of addressing emperors, sometimes taking the lead, and sometimes following others. But the Bishop of Jerusalem always comes first among the Fathers attending a council, and on every occasion is numbered with the patriarchs, and never with the metropolitans. Read also Dositheus in the Dodecabiblus, Book II, ch. 4. But even if we grant that Jerusalem was subject to Caesarea, what of it? Just as Byzantium was formerly subject to Heraclea, but later, after Byzantium became the seat of a patriarch, Heraclea was made subject to it; so and in like manner, if we allow (what is not a fact) that Jerusalem was subject to Caesarea, after Jerusalem was honored by being made the seat of a patriarch, Caesarea, true enough, retained its own dignity thereafter, in that it remained a metropolis of Palestine, yet it became subordinate to Jerusalem, since it is merely a metropolis, while Jerusalem is a patriarchate ***(i.e., the seat and headquarters of a patriarch). Read also Ap. c. XXXIV.

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…This really is the most humorous assertion Ive heard from you yet.
The above statement is a clear evidence of ignorance ( not offensively but Litteraly).
…The fact is, the Pentarchy is a development that occured,
Isn’t that what I said: “Originally Posted by Ignatios
Pentarchy was not from the beginning, but instead there was three pre-eminent Churches ( Rome, Alexandria and Antioch) , this is clear in the canons of the 1st E.C. even Jerusalem was mentioned,… , but that doesn’t mean that the Eastern Church did not see the Pentarchy from the time of the Second Ecumenical Council”
And what I have quoted for you above from the Canons and their interpretations confirm what I am saying to you, that Pre-eminency existed way before it was incorporated (if you will ) into the Church Law (Canon). IAW customs (practices) that denotes Pentarchy existed before it was recognized as such, The recognition of certain Sees as being Pentarchy and made them binding through the Canon is the results of the facts and prior practices and customs.
… it has nothing of value concerning scripture, simply a design of church government
I agree with you 1000% or rather you agree with the Orthodox Church 1000% but not with the RCC, because they(RCC) say that their Pre-eminence is of and according to the Scriptures from the book of Matthew.
Where the Orthodox Church says that the Pre-eminency of Rome as “first among equal” derived from being the Old Imperial City.

,
… that with the conquest of Islam, has really been turned into a concept of faint memory, wherein the other great Patriarchs took their stay with the Byzantine court, and its Patriarch.
Reading the history, we find your assertions to be false, let us look at some historical events and measured them with what you asserted:
The conquest of Islam came to the Land of Antioch first in the battle called “the battle of yarmuk” ( name of a River) and that was in the first half of the 7th century around 636 a.d.
Now how many councils had happened after the year 636 a.d. ?
Three major Councils and numerous events that can stand solid witness that those Patriarchates were vibrant and alive In relation to Church life that is in which it should be.
Just to mention quick here, that some of brightest Theologians and most definitely saints were in the Period of the Islam, those Eastern Churches stood as Giant before the others in witnessing for CHRIST, to mention one, Saint John of Damascus Listen to some the things that he wrote during that “fainted memory time of those Patriarchates”:

“…They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba [107] and kiss and embrace it?’”

JJR why not read more about that time when those Patriarchate had turned into a fainted memory, and then judge your own statement above,

Hmm, I just sounded like the late Pope JP II ( may his memory be eternal) when he told you( RCs) to approach the Eastern Church and try to learn.

As a matter of fact we find many extensive activity of those Patriarchates during Islam, for all fairness, AT TIMES the Muslims “Caliphates” treated the Christians of that land better than the Crusaders did, the only time that those Patriarchates became a fainted memory was under the Crusaders “regretfully”, and when the Muslims reconquered those regions, then, the natives Christians were restored back to that area, where the Latins had to go back to their native land.
In any case, you really didnt answer the question, as I can hardly see how you could, given history speaks against your position.
God bless,
You surely got your answer now, “IF” you read all the above, Now on who’s side the history is, after all the undisputable facts above.

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I too wish to put this issue aside. However, let me just leave note(in response to your bold) that it would not be so much me that you would be putting in a dilemma, but the leading scholars of all faiths, should your arguments be as powerful as you suggest:
Leading scholars, didn’t rely on “first hand witness”, simply because it doesn’t exist, and as I said before if the Holy Orthodox Church said that Saint Peter was In Rome, then, he was in Rome, this is good enough for me to believe. But what I don’t believe that he was in Rome in the year 32 a.d. and that he was the first bishop.
"Nevertheless, Irenaeus’s testimony in favour of a sojourn by Peter in Rome cannot be doubted. After Irenaeus, witnesses of this sort become abundant, and no ancient author denies that Peter went to Rome. This is an important point, and to it should be added the fact that only the Roman Church claimed to have Peter’s tomb. There were no other claimants. The argument from silence here is unusually powerful. For Peter visited many cities which might conceivably have boasted that they had provided a last resting place for him, had there been any persistent tradition to that effect. The archaeological evidence for the burial of St. Peter in Rome, beneath the Vatican itself is very complex. The excavators claim that they have found the site of Peter’s tomb, but not the tomb itself. Nevertheless, there are still many sceptics, Roman and non-Roman, but most of the leading scholars of all faiths are convinced that Peter did carry the Gospel to Rome and establish a Christian community in that city.
myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/milton1_3.html
Taken from an Eastern Orthodox site.
God bless,
This is a (t)radition, the above agrees with what I was saying, and it disagree with you, because (t)radition doesn’t have to be first hand witness, according to your standard this is a “legend”.
I have no problem with the tradition, especially if it is to the benefit of the Orthodox, like I said, in this case, I would encourage it.
God bless,
Okay, Great, I am glad that we both now agree that this is a (t)radition.
Of course you wont find Rome denying Constantinople’s claims. Why would she? Especially in these Ecumenical times. And, as you have already stated, for which I am in agreement with, the legend could quite possibly be true. To this point, is it really important if its true or not?
However, to address your questions, I believe the Byzantines first tried to assert their founder as St. Anderw in the early 8th Century by the “Pseudo-Epiphanius”, I believed this was accompanied by the forgery of Dorotheus, Bishop of Tyrus.
And then finally , maybe the following is why you have no problem if some believes in this “legend”:
radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=106196
Pope’s Speech Feast of St Andrew
(30 Nov 2006 RV) Pope Benedict XVI’s speech in the Patriarchal Cathedral of St George Istanbul, on the feast of St Andrew: Today, in this Patriarchal Church of Saint George, we are able to experience once again the communion and call of the two brothers, Simon Peter and Andrew, in the meeting of the Successor of Peter and his Brother in the episcopal ministry, the head of this Church traditionally founded by the Apostle Andrew. Our fraternal encounter highlights the special relationship uniting the Churches of Rome and Constantinople as Sister Churches.

Well, as the RCs say, “Rome has spoken the case is closed” so with that I will end it here, I hope.
Let us sum up the matter thus: While both traditions are found in each respective church, the Petrine tradition appears to more soundly hold up against sholarly scrutiny. However, in the traditions of the church, none of this matters much
God bless,
Since you called it a (t)radition ( which I was saying)and stayed away from calling it “legend” (which what you were saying), I will ignore the rest respectfully and call it Good Enough.

Maryy Christmas and a Happy new year to you and to all the world, I ask forgiveness for all the things that I have offended you and others, I wont be on for the computer for about a month. GOD bless you all.
 
Hello again Ignatios,

Greetings in Christ brother. Praise be to His name.

Thank you for all your words; I just finished reading through them. I must say, I have very much enjoyed our discussion, however, I would also say that I believe we have been talking past each other a great deal. Truly, a lot of what I have previously written, has either not been fully addressed, or has been taken in a way that I have not intended. This has led to more points of discussion, for which I have been accused by unwarranted implication. In any case, I will seek to remedy your concerns – both old and new – in the sometime future. However, I have quite a bit on my plate at the moment, so I hope I can get back with you before you return in a month. Again, so that I am clear, I am really enjoying our discussion, and I thank you.

Peace and God bless,

JJR
 
In the following I will make couple approaches in attempt to draw a clear picture for you,
Take for instance,
  1. Pope Infallability, ( according to your church the RCC) it came to be in the year 1870 or was it all along?.
  2. Purgatory was it from the beginning or it came to be in the 16th century.
  3. Immaculate Conception in the year in the year 1854 or was it all along.
You accepted the above according to your church, although they were not declared as dogma until the prescribed years above, you accepted them as they were as such all along. Why do you find it so strange that the action of Pentarchy was before they recognized and incorporated it as such.

This what they call double standard.
Not at all. I think you are comparing apples and oranges. The three examples you gave above are matters of DOCTRINAL faith. The issue of the Pentarchy is a canonical/ecclesiastical matter. This is easily proven by the fact that Jerusalem was clearly and unambiguously ELEVATED to Patriarchal status and did not have it prior to that. This is easily proven by the fact that Constantinople was clearly and unambiguously ELEVATED to Patriarchal status and did not have it prior to that.

DOCTRINAL faith, on the other hand, is the Faith once for all received from the Apostles themselves. It does not have to be explicit until a later time (such as the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Trinity), but it has truly already existed since the time of the Apostles.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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