Let's talk about the Mass of Paul VI

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Your bias is very revealing. Even archaeologists with their hammers and chisels can be wrong. What makes you think Bugnini knew all that much except that he was given power to change one, fired, then change another, and then exiled to Iran? Let’s face it, someone had an agenda and he was the one most able to execute it. And one only has to read a few paragraphs in his book to recognize his extreme arrogance.

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As I noted, in my post, I was not arguing that he was right to change, or that the changes should have been made, or that his liturgical knowledge meant the changes were necessarily better and good, but merely that it is a fact that he did have more knowlege than St. Pius V and many other Pontiffs. THAT is not arrogance to claim. I distinguish it form arrogance perhaps to think that his changes were better or for the common good.

What makes me think he knew all? I don’t know about “all” or the full extent of his knowlege, but he was not ignorant. Have you read some of his articles in Ephemerides Liturgicae?

I honestly cannot see a parallel between things the Church discarded and liturgical discoveries, a lot of which were merely lost through accidents of history. I rarely am a modicum of clarity, so I will say now that I do support all aspects of the reform. Though equally I note that many of the objections are towards omissions of things that are less than 1500 years.
 
St. Pius V’s commission did not have the same corpus of texts to work on.
Pius V wasn’t intent in liturgical reform but rather liturgical preservation against the new Masses of Cranmer and Luther.
When one reads some of his Bugnini’s articles, it can be seen that even though he may have been arrogant concerning the purpose, he was not a dimwit.
Freemason maybe, dimwit - never.
St. Pius V was not an expert in liturgical history or even ceremonies
He didn’t need to be. He wasn’ building anything new … he was doing his job as Pope and defending the church against heresy.
The reasons for the reforms are quite different, and no, as much as some would have you believe, the Masses are different in many ways. There are plenty of amazing discoveries that broadened the knowlege - not the Dead Sea Scrolls but still. For example, Dom Martene, 100 years after St. Pius V went through monasteries and libraries in several parts of Europe publishing several works which revealed different orders and rites of the Church. The Apostolic Traditions (for all the good or bad they’ve caused) were discovered in the mid 19th century as were severla Church Orders, Serapion, the Didache and any other number of works you can mention
It appears that all of these great traditions, tomes, and orders that enlightened Bugnini, only inspired him to use an exacto knife.
 
Pius V wasn’t intent in liturgical reform but rather liturgical preservation against the new Masses of Cranmer and Luther.
Only partly, and that through uniformity. The number of things his commission excised does make it a reform even if only against certain mediaevel trappings. It was also directed against unwanted devotional practises. In fact, a sizeable number of the rubrics used to even show it- that is why they used to direct so minutely the distance of the hands, or the height of the elevations, or that priests eyes should follow the Sacrament as he elevates
It appears that all of these great traditions, tomes, and orders that enlightened Bugnini, only inspired him to use an exacto knife.
As I said earlier, when speaking how they envisioned the format of the rites…

But yes they always had a necessary effect on how people viewed the order even of the Roman liturgy. For example, if you see the Catholic Encyclopedia, many of the theories of the Canon are based on the order of the Apostolic Constitution liturgy which was attributed at that time by some to St. Clement of Rome. In Bugnini’s time, the darling was the Apostolic Traditions, which was believed by many to have the most pristine rite of Rome. Nowadays, these claims have been or are being set aside.
 
What’s amazing to me regarding the origins of the prayers of the Pauline Mass, is the almost schizophrenic way they pulled prayers from this era or that, from this rite or that (some of them from Eastern Rites) in order to create this liturgical mesh of first millenium prayers, often with a modernistic take. Rather than something that authentically developed over time, they imposed a bureaucratized construct. To make matters worse, they deliberately omitted the “hard stuff,” from the Liturgy, such as references to the last four things, the necessity of obedience, personal chastisement of the priest, etc. Compare “Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa,” to the penitential Rite in the Novus Ordo. The level of self-prosecution in the latter is completely dwarfed by the former.

The arguments against the vernacular were laid out during the entire post-Tridentine period, because even in the 18th century there were reformers who wanted to say Mass in the vernacular, facing the people,etc. These reformers also wanted doctrinal updating to cope with the French Revolution, etc. They finally got their wish and disaster ensued.

I don’t understand the 20th century obsession with the early Church. The archaeologisms aside, I don’t really understand how nearly a thousand years of development could be cast off as “accretions.” Both doctrine and liturgy evolved during the last thousand years. The institution of the Papacy evolved, art styles evolved, etc., and it was as if the reformers just wanted to throw it away, and lead us into this golden age of a renewed early Church, which is ridiculous. We are not living in the early Church. We have 2,000 years of Christian history separating us from the first Christmas. These “accretions” may have developed for a reason. We aren’t Temple Jews from the 1st Century. We deal with modernism, Protestantism, relativism, and the secular state on a daily basis. Why on Earth would we shed the Catholic Church’s adaptations from the last 1,000 years just because people can’t understand Latin?

This fabrication of a rite of Mass has caused a disaster. Suddenly the Catholic Church was no longer dogmatic, hierarchical, mysterious, and ancient. It was “renewed,” democratic, subject to doctrinal revision and the individual’s conscience, ugly popular art movements, banal popular music, etc.

We went from being a worldwide, philosophical, dogmatic Church to AmChurch, and it would be foolish to act as though the democratization and de-Latinization of the liturgy didn’t play a role in what will eventually result in a schism of unprecedented proportions.

When I first went to the traditional Mass, I came to the overly-simplistic view that there are two faiths. One was Roman, Tridentine-based and anti-modern. The other is American, Novus Ordo-based, and enamored with tawdry American modernisms. While the situation isn’t that cut and dry, the “Conservative Novus Ordo” parishes seem like almost a myth to me. If I hadn’t encountered the Novus Ordo advocates on this and other forums, I would have never believed they even existed.

But what can we do about it? The superficial changes of the Vat II era have led to movements to change doctrine and compromise the truth of the Church. And when that happens, a schism ensues. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a “Reformed American Catholic Church,” in the works right now.

Just my thoughts.
 
I wouldn’t be surprised if there was an “Reformed American Catholic Church,” in the works right now.
Tomorrow is today! There is already an American Catholic Church with married priests, women deacons, married Bishops, etc. And they use the Novus Ordo for their liturgy - it fits in perfectly.

They trace their orders to some obscure Old Catholic bishop but their philosophy fits in with the American mantra of freedom, brotherhood, and social activism. You can probably fit the lot of them on a Volkswagen bus but their message could begin to resonate.

In 30 years or so when there are virtually no priests around to say the Novus Ordo, populistic alternatives like this will become more attractive.
 
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PrayforMallory:
I don’t understand the 20th century obsession with the early Church. The archaeologisms aside, I don’t really understand how nearly a thousand years of development could be cast off as “accretions.” Both doctrine and liturgy evolved during the last thousand years. The institution of the Papacy evolved, art styles evolved, etc., and it was as if the reformers just wanted to throw it away, and lead us into this golden age of a renewed early Church, which is ridiculous. We are not living in the early Church. We have 2,000 years of Christian history separating us from the first Christmas. These “accretions” may have developed for a reason. We aren’t Temple Jews from the 1st Century. We deal with modernism, Protestantism, relativism, and the secular state on a daily basis. Why on Earth would we shed the Catholic Church’s adaptations from the last 1,000 years just because people can’t understand Latin?
This is one of the best paragraphs I have read on this site! It perfectly summarizes my beliefs concerning the liturgical reforms. I can’t say anything else; the paragraph speaks for itself. 👍
 
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AJV:
On the contrary, the Anglicans and the Lutherans largely changed their services after the NO–and in many cases, this also involved a change of format. Furthermore, many of their services are modeled after the NO (with some doctrinal commissions) not the other way around. For example, the Ecumenical version of EP IV and the Revised Common Lectionery.
Can you provide us with any evidence to prove that both the Anglican and Lutheran services have changed as a direct result of the Pauline Mass? It would be great if you could because it would finally end the notion that the Mass of Paul VI was influenced by protestantism.
 
Can you provide us with any evidence to prove that both the Anglican and Lutheran services have changed as a direct result of the Pauline Mass? It would be great if you could because it would finally end the notion that the Mass of Paul VI was influenced by protestantism.
I can’t provide you with documentation but only personal experience. One of my fellow cathedral choir members married a young lady at an Episcopalian church with our cathedral rector in attendance. (I wouldn’t call it con-celebration). He asked the choir to sing for his wedding. There were some glaring word changes in some of the prayers but by-and-large it was Eucharistic Prayer II. We also use a common lectionary with both Anglicans and Lutherans.

I don’t recall the one Lutheran wedding I went to as being unrecognizable to me either. The Southern Baptist funerals I have attended are as far as the east is from the west in terms of a Requiem Mass (aka Mass of Christian Burial).
 
Can you provide us with any evidence to prove that both the Anglican and Lutheran services have changed as a direct result of the Pauline Mass? It would be great if you could because it would finally end the notion that the Mass of Paul VI was influenced by protestantism.
I have a copy of the Book of Common Prayer 1974. The liturgy is very similiar to the Novus Ordo. Some of the prayers are identical.It has many opitional Eucharistic prayers. One thing that struck me is that after the words of Consecration they say “Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith: Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again”
I think it is hard to say how much influence the six protestants had during the writing of the Mass. The following is from Father Bugnini’s book Reform of the Liturgy.

Pg 199. “At the audience of December 2, 1965, Cardinal Lecaro, president of the Consilium, gave the Pope a statement in which he said that some of the members of the Anglican communion who were involved in the revision of that Church’s liturgy had let it be known by indirect channels that they would be interested in following the work of the Consilium at close hand.
The Cardinal noted that a reciprocal knowledge of the researches and schemas of the two Churches would not be a bad thing. It might even serve as a positive help to rapprochement of the two Churches. This was more readily true, he added, for some parts of the liturgy. For example, if a common schema for the Psalter in the Divine Office and for the readings in the liturgy could be worked out, it might be a spiritual and psychological help to union.”

According to his book the Protestants that attended the meetings of the Consilium that wrote the Liturgy were Anglican Canon Jasper, Reverend Massey Shepherd professor at the Church divinity School of the Pacific, Methodist Professor Raymond George, Lutheran Pastor Friedrich Kunneth, Lutheran Reverend Eugene Brand and Calvinist Frere Max Thurian of the Taize community.

Pg 200 “ What was the role of the observers at the Consilium? Simply to “observe.” Their attitude at the meetings of the Consilium was one of great reserve and unobtrusiveness. They never took part in the discussions, never asked to speak.”
 
I have a copy of the Book of Common Prayer 1974. The liturgy is very similiar to the Novus Ordo. Some of the prayers are identical.It has many opitional Eucharistic prayers. One thing that struck me is that after the words of Consecration they say “Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith: Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again”
I think it is hard to say how much influence the six protestants had during the writing of the Mass. The following is from Father Bugnini’s book Reform of the Liturgy.

Pg 199. “At the audience of December 2, 1965, Cardinal Lecaro, president of the Consilium, gave the Pope a statement in which he said that some of the members of the Anglican communion who were involved in the revision of that Church’s liturgy had let it be known by indirect channels that they would be interested in following the work of the Consilium at close hand.
The Cardinal noted that a reciprocal knowledge of the researches and schemas of the two Churches would not be a bad thing. It might even serve as a positive help to rapprochement of the two Churches. This was more readily true, he added, for some parts of the liturgy. For example, if a common schema for the Psalter in the Divine Office and for the readings in the liturgy could be worked out, it might be a spiritual and psychological help to union.”

According to his book the Protestants that attended the meetings of the Consilium that wrote the Liturgy were Anglican Canon Jasper, Reverend Massey Shepherd professor at the Church divinity School of the Pacific, Methodist Professor Raymond George, Lutheran Pastor Friedrich Kunneth, Lutheran Reverend Eugene Brand and Calvinist Frere Max Thurian of the Taize community.

Pg 200 “ What was the role of the observers at the Consilium? Simply to “observe.” Their attitude at the meetings of the Consilium was one of great reserve and unobtrusiveness. They never took part in the discussions, never asked to speak.”
While I don’t gainsay this (and certainly I was not there) from what I understand there were all kinds of informal meetings between, say, groups of the more liberal or progressive Bishops. Meetings where the Protestant observers could certainly share their thoughts and insights without doing it at a formal meeting.
 
As I noted, in my post, I was not arguing that he was right to change, or that the changes should have been made, or that his liturgical knowledge meant the changes were necessarily better and good, but merely that it is a fact that he did have more knowlege than St. Pius V and many other Pontiffs. THAT is not arrogance to claim. I distinguish it form arrogance perhaps to think that his changes were better or for the common good.

What makes me think he knew all? I don’t know about “all” or the full extent of his knowlege, but he was not ignorant. Have you read some of his articles in Ephemerides Liturgicae?

I honestly cannot see a parallel between things the Church discarded and liturgical discoveries, a lot of which were merely lost through accidents of history. I rarely am a modicum of clarity, so I will say now that I do support all aspects of the reform. Though equally I note that many of the objections are towards omissions of things that are less than 1500 years.
Hi AJV,

Thanks for your clarity. And I do respect your liturgical knowledge. I suppose my basic question is, why?

From what I have read of the liturgical reform, say from Lauren Pristas’ articles (faculty.caldwell.edu/lpristas/), it seems as if the actual commission wanted to reform the liturgy in view of the needs of “modern man” and I can’t help but believe a further goal was to remove at least some obstacles from the liturgy for Protestants.

Also, having read some of the comments on this forum, and comments from people like Fr. Fessio (in addition to Lauren Pristas’ articles), it seems as if the reformers, in view of their liturgical principles, literally felt they had carte blanche to change, eliminate, or concoct almost any prayer, no matter how venerable (or new in the cast of concocting), in view of their agenda.

And that they exercised this power, sometimes taking a prayer that had been in disuse for centuries, pulling it out, altering it, maybe adding part of another prayer from a different rite, to get the result they wanted. This simply does not seem like any type of organic development (or if it is, then I guess inorganic development doesn’t exist :rolleyes: ).

God bless and thanks for your contributions to this forum.
 
OurRefuge:
I have a copy of the Book of Common Prayer 1974. The liturgy is very similiar to the Novus Ordo. Some of the prayers are identical.It has many opitional Eucharistic prayers. One thing that struck me is that after the words of Consecration they say “Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith: Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again”
I think it is hard to say how much influence the six protestants had during the writing of the Mass. The following is from Father Bugnini’s book Reform of the Liturgy.
It seems accurate to say that the Anglican service and the Pauline Mass are very similar based on what you’ve written. My main question is this: did the Pauline Mass influence the Anglican service? Or did the Anglican service influence the creators of the Pauline Mass?

I guess the only way find find out would be by looking at the history of the Anglican service. If we can find out what the Anglican service was like before Vatican II, then we’ll have our answer. If the pre-Vatican II Anglican service bares a striking resemblance to the Mass of Paul VI, then we’ll know for certain if the Pauline Missal is a protestantized version of the Mass.

**Does anyone own an old copy of the Book of Common Prayer? We need a very old version, perhaps from the 1920’s to the late 1950’s. Even a copy from the early 1960’s would suffice. **

We could use your old book to make comparisons between the old Anglican Service and the Mass of Paul VI.
 
It seems accurate to say that the Anglican service and the Pauline Mass are very similar based on what you’ve written. My main question is this: did the Pauline Mass influence the Anglican service? Or did the Anglican service influence the creators of the Pauline Mass?

I guess the only way find find out would be by looking at the history of the Anglican service. If we can find out what the Anglican service was like before Vatican II, then we’ll have our answer. If the pre-Vatican II Anglican service bares a striking resemblance to the Mass of Paul VI, then we’ll know for certain if the Pauline Missal is a protestantized version of the Mass.

**Does anyone own an old copy of the Book of Common Prayer? We need a very old version, perhaps from the 1920’s to the late 1950’s. Even a copy from the early 1960’s would suffice. **

We could use your old book to make comparisons between the old Anglican Service and the Mass of Paul VI.
Dempsey,
You can find a lot of Anglican service material online here. I have hard copies of certain works that are not, and have communicated about adding some very interesting Anglo-Catholic liturgies from other provinces with Mr. Wohler.

One caveat though: each Anglican Province is independent in the matter of its liturgical books, and of the the books has their own history. Thus you may find a number of liturgies, particularly in 20th century, which are very ‘Catholic’. These were developed under the influence of Anglo-Catholic missions. In many cases, parts of material is borrowed wholesale from the Traditional liturgical books.
 
It seems accurate to say that the Anglican service and the Pauline Mass are very similar based on what you’ve written. My main question is this: did the Pauline Mass influence the Anglican service? Or did the Anglican service influence the creators of the Pauline Mass?

I guess the only way find find out would be by looking at the history of the Anglican service. If we can find out what the Anglican service was like before Vatican II, then we’ll have our answer. If the pre-Vatican II Anglican service bares a striking resemblance to the Mass of Paul VI, then we’ll know for certain if the Pauline Missal is a protestantized version of the Mass.

**Does anyone own an old copy of the Book of Common Prayer? We need a very old version, perhaps from the 1920’s to the late 1950’s. Even a copy from the early 1960’s would suffice. **

We could use your old book to make comparisons between the old Anglican Service and the Mass of Paul VI.
Dempsey,
You can find a lot of Anglican service material online here. I have hard copies of certain works that are not, and have communicated about adding some very interesting Anglo-Catholic liturgies from other provinces with Mr. Wohler.

One caveat though: each Anglican Province is independent in the matter of its liturgical books, and of the the books has their own history. Thus you may find a number of liturgies, particularly in 20th century, which are very ‘Catholic’. These were developed under the influence of Anglo-Catholic missions. In many cases, parts of material is borrowed wholesale from the Traditional liturgical books.
 
It seems accurate to say that the Anglican service and the Pauline Mass are very similar based on what you’ve written. My main question is this: did the Pauline Mass influence the Anglican service? Or did the Anglican service influence the creators of the Pauline Mass?

I guess the only way find find out would be by looking at the history of the Anglican service. If we can find out what the Anglican service was like before Vatican II, then we’ll have our answer. If the pre-Vatican II Anglican service bares a striking resemblance to the Mass of Paul VI, then we’ll know for certain if the Pauline Missal is a protestantized version of the Mass.

**Does anyone own an old copy of the Book of Common Prayer? We need a very old version, perhaps from the 1920’s to the late 1950’s. Even a copy from the early 1960’s would suffice. **

We could use your old book to make comparisons between the old Anglican Service and the Mass of Paul VI.
Dempsey,
You can find a lot of Anglican service material online here. I have hard copies of certain works that are not, and have communicated about adding some very interesting Anglo-Catholic liturgies from other provinces with Mr. Wohler.

One caveat though: each Anglican Province is independent in the matter of its liturgical books, and of the the books has their own history. Thus you may find a number of liturgies, particularly in 20th century, which are very ‘Catholic’. These were developed under the influence of Anglo-Catholic missions. In many cases, parts of material is borrowed wholesale from the Traditional liturgical books.
 
It seems accurate to say that the Anglican service and the Pauline Mass are very similar based on what you’ve written. My main question is this: did the Pauline Mass influence the Anglican service? Or did the Anglican service influence the creators of the Pauline Mass?

I guess the only way find find out would be by looking at the history of the Anglican service. If we can find out what the Anglican service was like before Vatican II, then we’ll have our answer. If the pre-Vatican II Anglican service bares a striking resemblance to the Mass of Paul VI, then we’ll know for certain if the Pauline Missal is a protestantized version of the Mass.

**Does anyone own an old copy of the Book of Common Prayer? We need a very old version, perhaps from the 1920’s to the late 1950’s. Even a copy from the early 1960’s would suffice. **

We could use your old book to make comparisons between the old Anglican Service and the Mass of Paul VI.
Dempsey,
You can find a lot of Anglican service material online here. I have hard copies of certain works that are not, and have communicated about adding some very interesting Anglo-Catholic liturgies from other provinces with Mr. Wohler.

One caveat though: each Anglican Province is independent in the matter of its liturgical books, and of the the books has their own history. Thus you may find a number of liturgies, particularly in 20th century, which are very ‘Catholic’. These were developed under the influence of Anglo-Catholic missions. In many cases, parts of material is borrowed wholesale from the Traditional liturgical books.
 
It seems accurate to say that the Anglican service and the Pauline Mass are very similar based on what you’ve written. My main question is this: did the Pauline Mass influence the Anglican service? Or did the Anglican service influence the creators of the Pauline Mass?

I guess the only way find find out would be by looking at the history of the Anglican service. If we can find out what the Anglican service was like before Vatican II, then we’ll have our answer. If the pre-Vatican II Anglican service bares a striking resemblance to the Mass of Paul VI, then we’ll know for certain if the Pauline Missal is a protestantized version of the Mass.

**Does anyone own an old copy of the Book of Common Prayer? We need a very old version, perhaps from the 1920’s to the late 1950’s. Even a copy from the early 1960’s would suffice. **

We could use your old book to make comparisons between the old Anglican Service and the Mass of Paul VI.
Dempsey,
You can find a lot of Anglican service material online here. I have hard copies of certain works that are not, if you would like to see any particular one, and have communicated about adding some very interesting Anglo-Catholic liturgies from other provinces with Mr. Wohler once certain issues (like copyright and transcription) are sorted out.

One caveat though: each Anglican Province is independent in the matter of its liturgical books, and of the the books has their own history. Thus you may find a number of liturgies, particularly in 20th century, which are very ‘Catholic’. These were developed under the influence of Anglo-Catholic missions. In many cases, parts of material is borrowed wholesale from the Traditional liturgical books.

IIRC, Gambier did mention something about German Old Catholics in one of his books…I will have to look that up, it’s packed away right now.
 
These were developed under the influence of Anglo-Catholic missions. In many cases, parts of material is borrowed wholesale from the Traditional liturgical books.
Do you know of any way that we can compare the pre-Vatican II Protestant services with the Mass of Paul VI, or would this be a very difficult undertaking?

I really want to investigate whether the Mass of Paul VI was influenced by Protestant services. It would also be great to know if the Pauline Mass influenced the Protestant services.

By doing this, we will be able to answer a lot of questions concerning the Ordinary Form of the Roman Mass.
 
so I will say now that I do support all aspects of the reform. Though equally I note that many of the objections are towards omissions of things that are less than 1500 years.
do not support…
Brennan Doherty
Thanks for your clarity. And I do respect your liturgical knowledge. I suppose my basic question is, why?
Typo, sorry. I was typing too fast and also a bit sleepy.
From what I have read of the liturgical reform, say from Lauren Pristas’ articles (faculty.caldwell.edu/lpristas/)), it seems as if the actual commission wanted to reform the liturgy in view of the needs of “modern man” and I can’t help but believe a further goal was to remove at least some obstacles from the liturgy for Protestants.
Although there were those who clearly believed in a more ecumenical position, and certainly more of those who called for it, I’m not sure exactly how much can be attributed to removal of obstacles. Some of the people on the commissions, even though they wanted reform, were not so inclined to this position. Usually, it seems to me that such a statement is corroborated by pointing to the removal of things like the Offertory. But those can be very well explained on a different basis. At least, that’s my “take” and others may reach different conclusions.
Also, having read some of the comments on this forum, and comments from people like Fr. Fessio (in addition to Lauren Pristas’ articles), it seems as if the reformers, in view of their liturgical principles, literally felt they had carte blanche to change, eliminate, or concoct almost any prayer, no matter how venerable (or new in the cast of concocting), in view of their agenda.
And that they exercised this power, sometimes taking a prayer that had been in disuse for centuries, pulling it out, altering it, maybe adding part of another prayer from a different rite, to get the result they wanted. This simply does not seem like any type of organic development (or if it is, then I guess inorganic development doesn’t exist ).
I agree fully with you. To be honest, I the time I was typing about 1500 years I had in mind more the Ordinary rather than the Propers of the Mass. Certainly, for the collects, the omission of certain concepts is not very defensible much less the reworking of all the collects. At the same time, I haven’t fully worked out my own thoughts on the changing of some collects. For example, the one in Lent about Cosmas and Damien, or the Septuagesima for St. Paul. Plus *some *of the principles for the revisions for the Sanctorale, like the address to the Father instead of the Son, seem very appealing to me. Of course, these are not opposed to organic development.
 
Do you know of any way that we can compare the pre-Vatican II Protestant services with the Mass of Paul VI, or would this be a very difficult undertaking?

I really want to investigate whether the Mass of Paul VI was influenced by Protestant services. It would also be great to know if the Pauline Mass influenced the Protestant services.

By doing this, we will be able to answer a lot of questions concerning the Ordinary Form of the Roman Mass.
There are several Lutheran and Epsicopal/Anglican blogs that you can Google and get a historic perspective. Here is what you’ll find. The structure of their Masses, particularly in sequence, follows the Tridentine model: Epistle, Gradual, Gospel, Sermon, Offertory, Consecration, Lord’s Prayer, Communion, Post Communion. So does the N.O. although the names of some these prayers has been changed in the N.O. but remain the same in the Protestant masses. This has been the same since the 16th Century. As a previous post says, since they are not under a Papal structure, each area or synod can choose to modify their mass and lectionary to suit their preferences … which is similar to how the Novus Ordo can include hula dancing in Hawaii, and “interpretive” dancing in California at the Offertory.

Here is what separated the Catholic Mass from the Protestants prior to the Novus Ordo. You would typically only find this at a Latin Rite Catholic Mass:
  1. Mass was offered in its Liturgical language (Latin)
  2. Priest Faces East
  3. The Blessed Sacrament is only handled by a priest whose consercrated fingers are the only way to handle the sacred specie.
  4. The santuary is a sacred place where only the priest and the acolytes (ordinarily seminarians, extraordinarily, boys with the potential to be priests) are allowed to enter.
  5. all parts of the Mass are offered by the priest
  6. Masses can be High (Sung) or Low (spoken)
  7. The Mass is a Holy Sacrifice, the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary and many prayers in the Mass specify this sacrificial aspect with references to altars and oblation.
  8. Priest wears several different vestments signifying his duty in the Royal Priesthood and symbolizing different aspects of the sacrifice.
Both Cranmer and Luther took issue with some or all of these aspects of Catholicity. With Luther, it was the sacrificial aspect of the Mass (he considered it a Pascal Banquet), common priesthood of man (which was needed because they did not have Apostolic succession - Luther was only a priest and couldn’t ordain more priests) which the Novus Ordo has tried to imitate. He also condemned sacred images, relics, and art in churches which is why post-V2 churches are sterile and resemble bomb shelters in design. With Cranmer it was devotion to Our Blessed Mother and the Saints, indulgences, rosaries, and the like which they considered Popish.

So, all liturgical prayers aside, all of these things were eliminated or altered sufficiently to appeas the Protestant sects. That is why Protestant advisors were on Bugnini’s commission, to insure that the Pauline Mass would have absolutely NO objectionable (to the Protestants) prayers or inferences.

If you read most Lutheran blogs, you will find an outright aversion to anything that hints of Catholicism or of Rome. There are some who complain that even chanting or saying the Kyrie (which is Greek) is Popish. So your thoughts that perhaps the Lutherans decided to adopt ANYTHING propsed by Catholics in their mass is ludicrous. You may certainly find a synod that uses the Novus Ordo Lectionary - because it too has been cleared of any Protestant-objectionable interpretation, but you won’t find what you are looking for, namely that Protestants suddenly decided that the Novus Ordo Catholic Mass was for them.

It was vice versa.
 
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