Let's talk about today's readings 1/9/09

[cheeto1]

usccb.org/nab/readings/010909.shtml

Well, my daily missal words the first reading a little differently.
It says there are 3 witnesses - The Spirit, the water, and the blood, and all of them agree. The reading tells us that the
Spirit is the truth. Then what is the water? Baptism? and the
blood – Jesus’ suffering and death? What does it mean
about water and blood testifying with the Spirit? How can this
relate to human testimony? Then at the end of the reading it says that “you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be sure that you have eternal life.” What is the reason for saying “the name” of the Son of God? Is there a reason for saying that rather than just “you who believe in the Son of God”?

In the psalm it says “He has not dealt thus with other nations, He has not taught them His ordinances.” This is how I feel about
our Catholic Church. That He has not taught other “nations”
(denominations) His ordinances.

The gospel today contains a line that is close to my heart. The
leper says, “if you wish, you can make me clean”. In my
missal it says, “If you want to, you can cure me.” I am mindful
that God did not heal the apostle Paul when he asked Him
three times saying, “My grace is sufficient for you”. But He
also has the power to cleanse us of every sin.

So what struck you about today’s readings?:bible1:

 

[Luke65]

Well, my daily missal words the first reading a little differently.
It says there are 3 witnesses - The Spirit, the water, and the blood, and all of them agree. The reading tells us that the
Spirit is the truth. Then what is the water? Baptism? and the
blood – Jesus’ suffering and death? What does it mean
about water and blood testifying with the Spirit? How can this
relate to human testimony?

Okay, I’ll give it a go The water and blood are usually referred back to John’s gospel, when the soldier (Longinus, by tradition) speared our Lord’s body through the side and into His Sacred Heart, and water and blood poured out (John 19:34). And the water and blood are the sacraments, which we receive by the power of the Holy Spirit - so they “are of one accord”; and it is the grace of faith the Holy Spirit gives us, which testifies to us that Jesus is the Son of God.

Then at the end of the reading it says that “you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be sure that you have eternal life.” What is the reason for saying “the name” of the Son of God? Is there a reason for saying that rather than just “you who believe in the Son of God”?

If you go back to the beginning of this reading: “Beloved: Who indeed is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” You must believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Although, it might mean more than just that:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor [the Holy Spirit], Mighty God [the Holy Trinity], Everlasting Father [the Father], Prince of Peace [the Son].” (Isaiah 9:6)

Also:

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19 NIV)

You must believe in the Holy Trinity - I think that is what John was saying there. How’s that? :yup: :nope:

 

[cheeto1]

That’s pretty good!

 

[Nita]

1 John 5:7 So there are three who testify, the Spirit, the water, and the Blood, and the three are of one accord.

The three (Spirit, water, blood) also testify to the full humanity of Jesus. Spirit here can refer to the human soul of Jesus, as the words He spoke on the cross (just before the flow of blood and water from His side) show: “Father, into Your hands I commend My Spirit.” They also testify to the fact that Jesus truly died. (I recall hearing that the presence of water, with the blood, is something that occurs after death.)

Some of the first heresies concerned Jesus:

1. He didn’t really die
2. He wasn’t really human - His body was an illusion.

Altho today we take Jesus’ humanity and death for granted, such was not always the case. This verse would have refuted those early heretical contentions.

 

[cheeto1]

Thanks, that was really helpful!

But…

(I recall hearing that the presence of water, with the blood, is something that occurs after death.)

Does that happen inside the body, the water part separating
from the rest of the blood? I haven’t heard of it, but it would
explain why both blood and water came out with the spear.

 

[Kevin42]

I had always heard that if Jesus fell with the Cross, this may have been a traumatic enough injury to cause a pericardial effusion. This is where the lining around the heart, called the pericardium, is willed with watery fluid, causing pressure on the heart and hampering it’s ability to pump blood. This is very serious and can lead to death. So, the lance he was pierced with could possibly have passed through Jesus’ pericardium and into the right side of his heart, filled with blood even after death. When taken out, it would draw out the blood from the heart and the watery fluid from the expanded pericardium.

Like I said, this is a theory I have heard a few times.

 

[Light_Seeker]

First reading confirms the Church’s sacraments which lead to salvation:

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth that Christ is the truth.

Jesus is our salvation, by water, and by blood. Water is of course our sacrament of baptism - purification from sin and new birth in the Holy Spirit. But not water alone, like John the Baptist preparing the way, but blood too. And blood is the body of Christ, received in the sacrament of the Eucharist. And how do we partake in this Eucharistic sacrament? By the sacrament of confirmation and penance.

1Jn 5:7 And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.

Notice I’m using the Douay - Rheims bible. This is also how it appeared in the Latin Vulgate. My RSV-CE bible has a note that the “three heavenly witnesses” as the first sentence is called, is found in Latin but does not appear in any Greek manuscript until the 15th century. In other words, the RSV-CE and NAB are butchered, but the Vulgate, D-R, and even the KJV are correct.

Anyway, 5:7 is obviously the trinity in heaven. And on earth, baptism & the Eucharist, with the Holy Spirit, who our Lord provided as our counselor & guide, are all one.

 

[Nita]

1Jn 5:7 And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.

I also like the Douay, which includes verse 7 above. The Haydock Bible footnote concerning the history of this verse is interesting.
haydock1859.tripod.com/id279.html
Ver. 7… The Socinians object that this verse is wanting in many Greek manuscripts; and even Erasmus in one edition, and Mr. Simon in his Critics, have questioned it, or rejected it, as a false reading, but without any sufficient proofs and grounds, as hath been shewn by many learned Catholics, and also by Protestant writers, who receive in their translations this verse as canonical. It is easy to account for the omission of this verse; for as both the seventh and eighth verse begin and end with the same words, this gave occasion to the oversight and omission of the transcribers, whereas it is not credible that such a whole verse could be added. And that it was only by the mistake and oversight of transcribers may further appear, because we find part of the seventh verse, to wit, and these three are one, cited by Tertullian, lib. cont. Praxeam. chap. xxiii. p. 515. Ed. Rig. and twice by St. Cyprian, Epist. 73. ad Jubaianum. p. 125. Ed. Rig. in the Oxford Edition, p. 310. and in his Treatise de Unit. Ecclesiæ, p. 181. Ed. Rigal. and in the Oxford Ed. p. 79, where also Dr. Fell defends this verse of St. John to be genuine. Tertullian and St. Cyprian wrote long before the dispute with the Arians. The Socinians also object that this passage is not brought by St. Athanasius and some other fathers against the Arians, which they could scarce have omitted had they read this verse, but this only proves that this omission had happened in some manuscripts in their time, or, as some conjecture, that the Arians had corrupted some copies. St. Fulgentius made use of it against the Arians, and also others about that time. See the Benedictines of St. Maur against Mr. Simon, in the first tome of St. Jerome, p. 1670. Both Catholics and Protestants, after diligent examination, have received this verse, which is found in the best manuscripts. See Greek Testament at Amsterdam, in the year 1711. The three divine Persons, who are present everywhere, though said to be in heaven, gave testimony concerning Christ. The Father by a voice from heaven, both at his baptism (Matthew iii. 17.) and at his transfiguration, (Matthew xvii. 5.) saying: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him:” and also by all the miracles wrought by the same power of all the three divine Persons. 2. The Son testified to the Jews on many occasions, that he was sent from God, that he was the only Son of God, that he and his Father were one, &c. as in the annotations on John iii. The Holy Ghost confirmed the same, particularly by coming down upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost, and inspiring them to teach the same doctrine concerning Jesus Christ. (Witham) — An express proof of the three distinct persons and unity of nature and essence in the blessed Trinity.

 

[Nita]

Thanks, that was really helpful!

But…

Does that happen inside the body, the water part separating
from the rest of the blood? I haven’t heard of it, but it would
explain why both blood and water came out with the spear.

I’m a know-nothing when it comes to biology! But here’s an interesting article regarding the blood and water.
godonthe.net/evidence/forensic.htm

 

[Light_Seeker]

Thanks for Haydock’s comments! Wow. a comment I made on biblical translations actually backed up by Haydock Gold star on my forehead today, that surely doesn’t happen often… or at all!

I really prefer *reading *the RSV-CE. But time & again, when studying, I’m finding myself going back to the DR for clarification - and finding the true meaning of the verse from that translation. And with all the verses I’ve read that are just different, makes me wonder about the Church approval & Nihal Obstat/Imprimateur with NAB & RSV-CE.

 

[Nita]

I really prefer *reading *the RSV-CE. But time & again, when studying, I’m finding myself going back to the DR for clarification - and finding the true meaning of the verse from that translation. And with all the verses I’ve read that are just different, makes me wonder about the Church approval & Nihal Obstat/Imprimateur with NAB & RSV-CE.

I also use the RSV.
Also, I have a Greek interlinear Bible (NT) and some Greek interlinear Bible software. Something I discovered (when I’d be resorting to those Greek texts for some purpose) was that it was the Douay translation that was closest to the literal translation of the words given in the interlinear.

 

[Luke65]

That’s pretty good!

Grazi!

The three (Spirit, water, blood) also testify to the full humanity of Jesus. Spirit here can refer to the human soul of Jesus, as the words He spoke on the cross (just before the flow of blood and water from His side) show: “Father, into Your hands I commend My Spirit.” They also testify to the fact that Jesus truly died.

Muy bien!

Some of the first heresies concerned Jesus:

1. He didn’t really die
2. He wasn’t really human - His body was an illusion.

Altho today we take Jesus’ humanity and death for granted, such was not always the case. This verse would have refuted those early heretical contentions.

Veritas! (Lo! I’m typing in tongues! )

As for the missing v.7, Fr. Haydock sums up the case well, although there is also contextual evidence that the verse belongs there. I do believe that St. John wrote that verse in the original manuscript. :yup:

 

[cheeto1]

First reading confirms the Church’s sacraments which lead to salvation:
Water is of course our sacrament of baptism
blood is the sacrament of the Eucharist.
the spirit is the sacrament of confirmation and penance.

Anyway, 5:7 is obviously the trinity in heaven.

This makes a lot of sense, but I have a hard time relating the
water flowing out of Jesus at his death with the water of Baptism.

 

[Luke65]

This makes a lot of sense, but I have a hard time relating the
water flowing out of Jesus at his death with the water of Baptism.

Hmm, maybe this will help:

Jeremiah 17:13
O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water.

Zechariah 14:8
On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.

John 4:10
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
(NIV)

 

[Light_Seeker]

This makes a lot of sense, but I have a hard time relating the
water flowing out of Jesus at his death with the water of Baptism.

Beside the verses Luke65 graciously supplies, here’s an excerpt from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia that specifically addresses it:

Blood and Water
(αἷμα καὶ ὕδωρ, haíma kaí húdōr): The remarkable passage (Joh_19:34) from which this expression is taken refers to the piercing of the Savior’s side by the soldier. The evangelist notes here what he, as an eyewitness of the crucifixion, had seen as a surprising fact. Whereon this surprise was founded cannot now be more than guessed at. Nor is it necessary here to discuss the reason or reasons why the apostle mentions the fact at all in his report, whether merely for historical accuracy and completeness, or as a possible proof of the actual death of Christ, which at an early date became a subject of doubt among certain Christian sects, or whether by it he wished to refer to the mystical relation of baptismal cleansing (“water”) and the atonement (“blood”) as signified thereby. Let it suffice to state that a reference often made to 1Jo_5:6, 1Jo_5:8 is here quite out of place. This passage, though used by certain Fathers of the church as a proof of the last-named doctrine, does not indeed refer to this wonderful incident of the crucifixion story. The argument of 1Jo_5:8 concerns the Messiahship of Jesus, which is proved by a threefold witness, for He is the one whom at the baptism of John (“water”) God attested as the Messiah by the heavenly voice, “This is my beloved Son,” who at the crucifixion (“blood”) had the testimony that the Father had accepted His atoning sacrifice, and whose promise of sending the Comforter fulfilled on Pentecost (“spirit”) presented us with the final proof of the completed Messianic task. The same expression in 1Jo_5:6 refers probably to the same argument with the implied meaning that Jesus came not only by the merely ceremonial water of baptism, but also by the more important, because vivifying, blood of atonement.

 

[cheeto1]

Beside the verses Luke65 graciously supplies, here’s an excerpt from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia that specifically addresses it:

Outstanding!