Lets talk ad orientem

  • Thread starter Thread starter JimG
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JimG

Guest
onemadmomblog.wordpress.com

Let’s Talk Ad Orientem

I’m trying to figure out what the liberals know that we don’t, because the hysteria has been turned up a notch or two in the past couple of months. First the word “schismatic” has been batted aroun…
onemadmomblog.wordpress.com onemadmomblog.wordpress.com
 
I once went to a liberal UCC church to watch a family member perform music and the minister turned around when praying to God. Plenty of Protestants do so too, not to mention the EOs. No one there has a problem with it.

I’ve said this before, but as a kid when my dad mentioned that the priest used to face the other way and Mass was in Latin, I didn’t get the point of Latin, but the priest facing the same way as us when praying seemed much more natural.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I really liked the author’s gift-giving analogy.

Catholics who react with horror to traditional practices of the Catholic faith have issues. It should be natural for a Catholic to embrace tradition or at least be tolerant of it.
 
Last edited:
I like it I went to a novus ordo that was ad orientem once it was nice I get the reasons for doing it either way but I prefer ad orientem
 
I liked the article. And I like “ad orientem”. I think it helps make our worship clearer. I think it takes a lot of burden off everybody’s shoulders. The priest: Because instead of being ‘the center of attention’ and him being conscious of every eye roll, yawn, gimlet glare, etc of the people in the pews, he can focus on worship of God and not ‘worry about if I’m getting through to Joe and Jane in the pews". The people, because instead of watching to see if Father is wearing black sox with brown shoes or vice versa, or trying to get his attention, or trying to register one’s dislike or admiration of him, they can also focus on ‘the altar’. Church becomes less, "I am sitting here in the pew waiting to have my needs met and all those people especially the priest are there to entertain me and my friends’ or "I am standing up here trying to help these people get the message as I understand it, punctuated by my gestures, my facial cues, my ‘rapport’, the ‘give and take’ between performer and audience’, and more:

“WE” that is people and priest are gathered together while the priest leads us in our worship.

I honestly don’t get why people can’t see how much better it is.

The priest is NOT TURNING HIS BACK ON US. As the article points out, when it is time to address US, i.e. at the homily, at the readings, he faces us. At the time when he is addressing God (the consecration), he faces God. Yes, I know "God is everywhere’. But visually in a church there is a tabernacle which is supposed to be ‘front and center’, and there is a crucifix ditto. And it is a lot easier for people who are already in pews LOOKING AT THOSE THINGS on the altar to focus there, instead of looking around sideways and behind them and up on the ceiling and down on the floor because “God is everywhere”. Unity of posture and unity of gesture, priest and people, helps draw our attention to representations of Christ that bring HIM before us, not bring ‘us’ before us, or bring ‘us’ to the forefront of the Priestly focus, etc.

This reminds me of the other bug-bear of women wearing coverings (Hats, veils, beanies, headbands, scarves, etc.). It’s a pious custom. It shows reverence.

But you’d never know because the gut reaction of some is: It is DISTRACTING, it is "holier than thou’, it is a sign of female submission’, I don’t have to so you shouldn’t want to because your wanting to is disrespecting me. . .

Same with ad orientem.
"it’s facing AWAY from us. Don’t tell ME any different. It isn’t forced now, and choosing it is backward, and it’s a sign of disrespect for the people. We shouldn’t have to, and if you want it, you’re disrepecting ME.’

Forrest Gump’s Mama knew it. . .you can’t argue with. . .
 
How come people who complain about the priest turning his back on them never complain about all the people in the closer pews turning their backs on them? Just sayin…
 
https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/cath...6f0c1cee6718a9de9cb026e60a6b033b19a9f44b.jpeg
Except the Lord is not on the crucifix but on the altar.
My church is built on the “wrong” side of the road so that the West End faces East. Versus populum is ad orientem. The crucifix is suspended above the altar.

We have a large collection of chasubles. It is easy to tell those made before the mid-1960s to more recent ones. The old ones have the main design on the back and the newer ones have it on the front. We also have a reversible one that must have been made on the cusp.
 
Last edited:
Maybe this is a good time to point out that versus populum was never called for by Vatican II. I’m guessing it got snuck in (disobediently at first - never a good sign) to support the “table of the Lord” view that we’ve been swamped in for the past 50 years.
 
snarflemike said:
Maybe this is a good time to point out that versus populum was never called for by Vatican II. I’m guessing it got snuck in (disobediently at first - never a good sign) to support the “table of the Lord” view that we’ve been swamped in for the past 50 years.
Click to expand...
It was first experimented at Sant’ Anselmo in Rome in the 1940s. So yes it was an intended part of the liturgical reforms.
 
I recommend the following books:-

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass Explained(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
These numerous bookmarks show how much fruit I got out of this book. I bought it when I attended a lecture at Church and this was by itself on the table, so I assume it belonged to one of the people holding the stall as it is from 1996 (the book I have). As there isn’t an ISBN that I could find, I have linked to the book on archive.com

In no particular order:-

The Spirit of the Liturgy - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

Turning Towards The Lord - Uwe Michael Lang

Signs of The Holy One - Uwe Michael Lang

Benedict XVI’s Reform The Liturgy between Innovation and Tradition - Nicola Bux

Resurgent in the Midst of Crisis - Peter Kwasniewski

Noble Beauty, Transcendent Holiness - Peter Kwasniewski

There are others I have on kindle, but the first 4 had the greatest influence as well as writings online which contributed to my attending the EF Mass more often than I do the OF Mass.

But, IMO, I think ad orientem is the middle ground between the OF and the EF.
 
Last edited:
stpurl said:
But visually in a church there is a tabernacle which is supposed to be ‘front and center’,
Click to expand...
Not in a church with a choir (in the sense of canons or monastics) used to also celebrate the Divine Office. In those cases the preferred location for the tabernacle is another altar. And this, before the Council.
 
The only reason I’d be against switching my Ordinary Form parish to an ad orientem arrangement is that I would take it as caving in to traditionalists who should mind their own business.

If our bishop or priest or whomstever makes these decisions could convince me with 100% certainty (the kind of certainty that’s like papal infallibility) that the decision had not a scintilla of influence from outsiders, then I’d be o.k. with it.

But in any case, I don’t believe in the least that the direction the priest faces makes any difference in the mysteries of the Mass or in how laypeople receive it.

The other thing is, and I’m being entirely honest and hoping this is a no judgement zone, if the priest has his back to me and I can’t see what he’s doing, I’m quickly going to lose interest and zone out until it’s time to walk up to communion.
 
Last edited:
I’m not sure how relevant this is to the thread, and I have yet to read the article (which I will get around to), but I want to put this somewhere.

I grew up attending the New Mass, and I still attend the New Mass because I have no Latin Mass to attend. I would prefer to attend the Latin Mass, but let’s not get into that now.

In my archdiocese, there is a monthly Ukrainian Catholic mission at which my father is the cantor. I had been accustomed to attend this mission with my father ever since I can remember. I stopped for a while, but have recently began attending again within the last year-and-a-half, but that’s beside the point.

Of course, in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the priest faces ‘toward the east.’ It recently occurred to me that, as a little boy attending these liturgies, I didn’t even notice this (that the priest was turned the other way), which I find odd. It never occurred to me that the priest was ‘facing the other way.’

I realize that this anecdote could be used to support either side of the debate, however, I believe that it’s important to avoid using personal opinions and preferences in this particular debate.
 
But you still have the crucifix in front, and you still have the altar in front, and the consecration is still celebrated on the altar. Christ’s Real Presence is found there.

And yes, I know that some churches don’t face liturgical East, etc. etc.

As for facing the people being ‘part of the reform’, again, the priest ‘faces the people’ when he speaks to the people. I do not believe that the ‘liturgical reform’ encompassed the idea of making every OF ‘turn away’ from the at the time ‘default’ position of ad orientum.
 
Genesis315 said:
I once went to a liberal UCC church to watch a family member perform music and the minister turned around when praying to God. Plenty of Protestants do so too, not to mention the EOs. No one there has a problem with it.
Click to expand...
Some LCMS Lutherans too. Apparently, they have the same dispute as Catholics.

gottesdienstonline.blogspot.com

About face?

The new poll at right asks our pastoral readers (or our lay readers can report on their pastor's celebration in their congregation) which di...
gottesdienstonline.blogspot.com gottesdienstonline.blogspot.com
 
Last edited:
With respect, I see an awful lot of, “I think this, I want this, I intend to choose this, you have to convince ME”.

How come you don’t ask for the same for the current 'facing the people?" Where is the evidence with 100% certainty that the decision to ‘turn to the people’ did not have a scintilla of influence from outsiders? Where is the teaching (authority) that ‘the direction the priest faces’ doesn’t make a difference beyond your personal opinion?
 
OraLabora said:
It was first experimented at Sant’ Anselmo in Rome in the 1940s. So yes it was an intended part of the liturgical reforms.
Click to expand...
There are churches in the Vatican which were primarily ad populum for a couple of millennium before that. Specifically, those in which it was necessary, due tot he structure of the preexisting building (not built as a church), to place the altar I the west of the church. In those churches, the priest facing ad orientem is also by the structure ad populum.

In those churches, the people turned to face East at multiple times during the Mass . . .
ioannes_pius said:
Of course, in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the priest faces ‘toward the east.
Click to expand...
Note that in many (most?) US Eastern Catholic Churches, including my own, “Liturgical East” and “cartographic East” are not the same thing . . . but once we enter the church, we just kind of redefine “East”.

Newer churches, both EC and RCC, are making stronger efforts to put the East in the East . . . . and, in fairness, many of the RCC churches in the US are second churches, built on the same property as the original church which has become a hall as the congregation grew. I’ve noticed that the original church in these cases was indeed built with the altar in the east.
 
stpurl said:
I do not believe that the ‘liturgical reform’ encompassed the idea of making every OF ‘turn away’ from the at the time ‘default’ position of ad orientum.
Click to expand...
It certainly was codified in the Editio Typica of the Roman Missal. And as I mentioned tested in the 1940s. The liturgical renewal movement pre-dates Vatican II. It goes back to Dom Prosper Gueranger at Solesmes and picked up steam under Pius X.
 
Noted!

I was feeling too lazy to get into that, hence why I put “toward the east” in inverted commas.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top