Lets talk ad orientem

[ProVobis]

But there is no reason why Latin could not be used.

On the contrary. The ICEL doesn’t collect royalties on the Latin said, just the translations. And as we saw, those translations were not that easy. We have had several since 1970, though some were not implemented.

Unfortunately the commission has a vested interest in pushing as much vernacular as they can.

 

[Brendan_64]

The only reason I’d be against switching my Ordinary Form parish to an ad orientem arrangement is that I would take it as caving in to traditionalists who should mind their own business.

Within your parish, I would be surprised if there were not at least a moderate handful of ‘traditionalists’. ‘Traditionalists’ are not these strange outsiders, I think they are there among the parishioners in ‘Novus Ordo’ parishes, those who would prefer ad orientum, communion rails etc, but just quietly accept that things are how they are and make less noise about it than you might think. I think it is as much these people’s business as it is others’ in the parish.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The only reason I’d be against switching my Ordinary Form parish to an ad orientem arrangement is that I would take it as caving in to traditionalists who should mind their own business.

‘Traditionalists’ are not these strange outsiders, I think they are there among the parishioners in ‘Novus Ordo’ parishes, those who would prefer ad orientum, communion rails etc, but just quietly accept that things are how they are and make less noise about it than you might think. I think it is as much these people’s business as it is others’ in the parish.

Could not agree more! If you are Catholic you are part of the Church and it is your business.

 

[AlbMagno]

Could not agree more! If you are Catholic you are part of the Church and it is your business.

So if I go to a FSSP parish and like more the OF Mass, it is my bussiness to change the form of the mass?

 

[pnewton]

Could not agree more! If you are Catholic you are part of the Church and it is your business.

I do not know about that. The Catholic Church operates on subsidiarity. When it comes to those options within the Mass, I can see where the parishioners consider it there business, but I question if it is the business of anyone who never attends how another parish chooses to licitly celebrate Mass.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Thank you for that. I like it.

In the talk below an FSSP priest discusses ways one can participate at Mass, at least the Latin Mass, starting at about 16:00 in to the video. He lists 7 ways, one of which is standing with the Blessed Mother and praying the rosary.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

but I question if it is the business of anyone who never attends how another parish chooses to licitly celebrate Mass.

The point was that traditionalists are part of the OF parishes. That they do attend OF parishes.

 

[Minks]

Thank you. I, too sometimes stumble onto the more crucial bits of info.

 

[AlbMagno]

Praying the Rosary during Mass wouldn’t be appropiate. They are both separated prayers, but, in the case of Mass, a ritual/sacrametal (and therefore more important) prayer. There are ways to incorporate Marian devotion and veneration into the Mass, like the mention of Her by the Ministers and the songs/hymns about Her.

 

[AlbMagno]

Okay, IDK if that would be true but whatever…

Praying a Rosary requires active meditation on the Mysteries, if prayed correctly, it distracts you from meditating the Readings and prayers of the Mass, not to mention the Eucharist Himself.

And yes, I know some pre-VII attenders (and it seems some people now) do it, but that doesn’t make it right.

 

[Minks]

@otj m

Many pre-Vatican II era people felt that their bishops had lied to them when it became widespread knowledge that the Latin Mass had, in fact, not been abrogated, because they definitely had been led to believe that Latin Masses were no longer possible.

And I object to your use of the word “many”. Even after Ppe Benedict opened up the EF, the results were that very few people either by parish or by diocese wanted - and to this day want - the EF. I have a parish within about a 15 minute drive that has 11 Masses on a weekend; 4 are in Spanish; one in Vietnamese, 5 in English and one in Latin. Yes, that happens to be at 6:45 in the morning on Sunday, and there are about a 100 or less who attend. The rest of the Masses vary between 80%+ attending in terms of seating(with the exception of the Vietnamese, which is around 250), to at least one which is literally standing room only. The “presumption” that the EF would even double in size to maybe 200 has no historical evidence to support it whatsoever. It is a courtesy to the very small minority of the parish who wish to have the EF.

there are parishes in the US which are all EF, and parishes which may have one or more EF Masses - many during the week rather than on Sunday. Why? Well a look at the ststistics is a bit telling; fewer than 3% of all parishes in the US have any EF Mass, including the all EF parishes.

So let’s be honest in our language: Some (not many) people wanted to retain the EF.

My mother, born in 1917 in a rural community went to daily Mass after she retired. One day I asked her what she thought of Vatican 2 (note: Vatican 2, not the Mass) and her immediate response was “Oh! The Mass in English!” and she was the source of my siblings and I having missals in the 1950s and 1960s prior to the introduction of the vernacular. And the vast majority of people I grew up knowing - meaning those my age and older, were overjoyed with the use of the vernacular.

Dismantling of the Church? Please, spare us.

And as to the “Experience of being Catholic”, I am old enough to remember that the majority (as in, more than 50%) of those attending Mass prior to the vernacular did not have missals; they said their rosaries and read their devotional pamphlets.

Yes, that was quite the “experience of being Catholic”. I kind of think that was not what Christ intended when He confected the first Eucharist at the Passover, nor what the Church intended as it spread throughout the then known world and used the vernacular of the people.

@otjm
Lol! I missed the document giving the totals when Catholics in the pew voted on the Latin Mass vs the Novus Ordo. Will you site that please?

 

[AlbMagno]

Thanks for the information. The “whatever” remark was because you didn’t provide any source before, But now you do.

I think this principle applies well to the old latin rites in past years, when people weren’t so educated and the Mass was said in a foreign language to the majority of the population. But now, when the majority of people can read, they are used to the pedagogical system of listening to a orator, and have a Mass in their own language (or in its absence, a Missal or even an app with translations), I think the faithful can follow perfectly the prayer of the Mass.

Obvously, they need to be well cathecised in the meaning of the Mass, but if they don’t, I don’t think they will start praying a Rosary either.

 

[pnewton]

The point was that traditionalists are part of the OF parishes. That they do attend OF parishes.

I am sure that is true in most places, to a greater or lesser degree. The problem is, that while there are some variances in Mass, it is harder to have variances in architecture. The altar is where the altar is, at least for us. Ad orientem is not possible for us, as an example.

 

[AlbMagno]

Well, I can understand people praying the Rosary during the moments of silence. I was thinking about people praying it during the Readings or something like that.

 

[otjm]

You really are hilarious.

Thanks for the response. as to the study, you are welcome to look for it yourself. I am not going to repeat Sacrosanctum Concilium; it appears this may be the first that you ever heard as to why paragraph 14 was the lead paragraph as to the Bishops’ intent.

I am not talking about elites here, and I had experience with far more than one parish in my youth.

Have a great holiday weekend!

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes I wouldn’t say it was good during the readings or homily but during moments of silence why cant we say some Hail Marys and ask her to pray for us as we are about to receive our Lord?.

 

[otjm]

Wow! Unless you could read the minds of so many bishops, you have not only absolutely no evidence, but your statement flies in the face of real world history.

Look - you appreciated the EF and long for a return to it - with or without some vernacular. In the US more than 97% of parishes have only the OF, and among those which have both, the statistic goes even higher. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the EF, but the reality is that it isn’t going to happen.

 

[otjm]

Wow! Unless you could read the minds of so many bishops, you have not only absolutely no evidence, but your statement flies in the face of real world history.

Look - you appreciated the EF and long for a return to it - with or without some vernacular. In the US more than 97% of parishes have only the OF, and among those which have both, the statistic goes even higher. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the EF, but the reality is that it isn’t going to happen.

Virtually all masses? out of some 16,000 to 17,000 parishes with what - an average of about 3 Sunday Masses, and you can say virtually all? And you accuse me of limited experience and bias?

 

[OraLabora]

In the talk below an FSSP priest discusses ways one can participate at Mass, at least the Latin Mass, starting at about 16:00 in to the video. He lists 7 ways, one of which is standing with the Blessed Mother and praying the rosary.

I’m sorry but suggesting that praying the rosary is somehow full active participation in the Mass is just spin. It is being disingenuous to suggest that Sacrosanctum Concilium had this in mind. So it may be perhaps be helpful to review just what exactly SC meant:

1. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.

Note that the people should be encouraged to take par by means of acclamations, responses, etc. Not the acolytes/altar servers. The people.

Sacrosanctum Concilium is as plain as day on this topic. So can we please put this to rest? This is what the OF was designed to do.

It was also designed with these considerations:

1. The rites should be distinguished by a noble simplicity; they should be short, clear, and unencumbered by useless repetitions; they should be within the people’s powers of comprehension, and normally should not require much explanation.

That in itself suggests the need for the vernacular.

Also:

1. The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.

For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.

The OF, properly celebrated, meets these requirements admirably.

For the love of us who prefer the OF, could you traditionalists PLEASE leave our rite alone? You have the EF Mass. If you don’t like the OF, feel free to attend the EF. I do NOT want the EF forced on me by incremental reversion. I want the OF to be celebrated with reverence and relevance. And I do NOT want the OF bashed continually on this forum.

 

[CRV]

Articles I found of interest and which others may also:-

Sacred Signs and Active Participation in the Mass. Rev. Cassian Folsom, OSB 1998, it includes a part titled " What does “active participation” mean?"

For those who may be interested or perhaps thinking of buying the book I linked to in an earlier post - The Spirit of the Liturgy, here is an extract - The Altar and the Direction of Liturgical Prayer | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger Chapter 3

For anyone who hasn’t read it:-
Cardinal Sarah’s address on the 10th Anniversary of “Summorum Pontificum”

The Liturgy, Fifty Years after Sacrosanctum Concilium by Dom Alcuin Reid a liturgical scholar and writer, and discusses Sacrosanctum Concilium, ad orientum, active participation.
The Organic Development of the Liturgy by Dom Alcuin Reid

‘Mutual Enrichment’ in Theory and Practice by Fr Timothy Finigan

The Mass of Vatican II | Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J. | IgnatiusInsight.com mentions paragraph 14 of Sacrosanctum Concilium, and active participation plus delves into many paragraphs of this document, Gregorian Chant - before addressing what the Council didn’t say.

The Mass of Vatican II | Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J. | Part 2 begins with PJPII address to the Bishops, then Full, Conscious and Active Participation is covered. Both of these articles are from 1999.