Lets talk ad orientem

[snarflemike]

It would help if some of this music was transcribed into standard musical notation.

I was poking around last night and stumbled across this. It’s in booklet form, with both chant notation and modern notation.

EDIT: Looking quickly through this booklet, I saw that the modern notation uses 6 or 7 different keys. That seems nuts to me!

http://gregorian-chant-hymns.com/publications/booklet-latin-mass-hymnal.pdf

There are many people thirsting for ancient music, and the Church ought to make this approachable if we want this to increase.

Given that Pope Paul VI made a gift of “Jubilate Deo” to all the bishops, for the benefit of the people, it borders on scandalous that the booklet (or digital version) is so hard to locate. It is nowhere on the USCCB site that I can find.

 

[OraLabora]

A lot are trying, but if you have an entrenched (usually older) pastor who’s opposed, you’re dead in the water. If you have an entrenched (usually older) parish music team, you’ve got a hard road ahead.

I think you have to broaden your efforts beyond the parish. Our schola is based in a small city, pop 100k. The schola was founded by a layman who sought out the help of the local Benedictines who lined out their choirmaster for the project, back in ‘97. Being a monk of a famous local abbey certainly helped open doors. I had been trying to teach myself chant in bits and pieces and joined in 2002, the year I entered oblate formation.

Eventually the monk found parishes willing to give us a try. A fellow oblate had done the same thing in Montreal as well.

We’ve become fairly well known locally now, and are asked to chant for Masses or give recitals for parish fundraisers, and recitals for a local series of concerts and recitals. Although I much prefer chanting in an actual liturgy, don’t discount recitals as a way of becoming known.

We’ve moved an old priest to tears when we sang at his Mass, he never thought he’d ever hear chant again.

Funerals are also another good venue. Some folks have asked us to chant for their funeral when their time comes. It would be a churlish pastor indeed who would deny the deceased their last wishes.

Ya gotta do it one brick at a time. No, it isn’t easy! If you are in a rural area you’re at the mercy of the pastor and the “liturgical committee”. In a city if you knock on enough doors, eventually one will open. Also look at resources like the Gregorian Institute of Canada or Musica Sacra for tips.

 

[OraLabora]

If you’d take the time to read my entire post, you’d have noticed that I said “defective” was perhaps the wrong word. That 2147 bishops thought the liturgy needed reforming is a documented fact.

 

[ProVobis]

That 2147 bishops thought the liturgy needed reforming is a documented fact.

According to the book “The Rhine Flows Into the Tiber” there were very heated debates between the progressives and the conservatives at Vatican II, so much so Pope John signed not a single document. When Pope Paul reconvened the council, he got the two sides to agree and thus seemingly contradictory statements were written and signed by most. But we saw in due time which side won out.

 

[AlbMagno]

@camoderator Can you close this thread? After reading some posts, I think this is just a OF vs EF holy war.

 

[OraLabora]

No it doesn’t. I’m pretty sure it is documented and that I read in Abp. Bugnini’s book that one of the difficulties of the reform was taking on an ancient rite that had not been touched in 400 years and having to reform it in a relatively short period of time to meed the needs of the modern Church. And it’s something that Church leaders have known for a long time: Dom Prosper Guéranger in the 1800s, St Pius X, Pius XII, St John XXIII and of course St Paul VI who played an instrumental role in bring the reforms to fruition.

Moreover Sacrosanctum Concilium itself states:

1. The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.

For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.

This certainly implies that there were accretions (and omissions) over time, the reasons for which were lost in the mists of time. I think a perusal of Levavasseur’s Ceremonial would provide plenty of documentation for that.

The facts are in fact on the table, amply documented if one takes the time to read and analyze the documents of the reforms.

 

[ProVobis]

Interesting question as the old Missal included an Examination of Conscience section which prohibited any Mass which was not Catholic (or however it was worded.) The new Mass was not allowed until 1969.

 

[ralfyman]

From what I gathered, the OF can be an “enriching” experience (as pointed out by Pope Benedict XVI) if done correctly. Here’s an example from the televised Masses at EWTN:

 

[PetraG]

I checked with my kids. They are in their thirties and forties. They like the Ordinary Form. They like the 70s hymns they grew up with so your wait may be longer than you think.

My nieces and nephews, too, and essentially all of the high school and college students that I actually know. They are as likely to have an antipathy towards Latin as not.

It is kind of like looking at the exploding popularity of quilting and imagining that every woman wants a sewing machine and fabric obsession. No, not so much. That is nothing against quilting. Quilting is fabulous. It is not fabulous for everybody.

 

[ProVobis]

(post withdrawn)

 

[PetraG]

Believe me, I’ve told them this. Everyone who knows English knows a slew of foreign phrases. They’re not all buying though.

 

[ProVobis]

Unless I’m mistaken, that session stated Church doctrine on the Mass. That means it’s not just discipline which can be changed.

 

[otjm]

I suspect that Pope John signed no document because none had come to a final vote. SC was the first document; the final vote was after his death as it was Pope Paul who signed it.

 

[OraLabora]

“The Reform of the Liturgy 1948-1974” by Annibale Bugnini, p.6:

The process was begun by abbot Prosper Guéranger, OSB (d. 1875) who spread his love of the liturgy in the Benedictine monasteries he founded, while his publications disseminated the spirituality of the liturgy among more alert and receptive Christians.

Wikipedia:

Guéranger is credited with reviving the Benedictine Orderin France, and the implementation of the Tridentine Massin France, though he is also regarded as the grandfather of the Liturgical Movement, which led to further reform of the Mass of the Roman Rite beyond its Tridentine form. The cause for his canonizationis currently being studied by the Holy See, which has approved the title for him of Servant of God.

I didn’t make my statement up. I am an oblate of one of his daughter monasteries.

 

[Mi_Rose]

Check out the Liturgical Movement on Wikipedia. Then go to the sources it suggests. I knw Wikipedia is not a great resource but it is a good place to start. Much of the scholarship was European so we did not hear a lot about it in the US. Vatican ll did not come from the sixties.

 

[OraLabora]

What??? Where are you getting your information? The package of 3 new EPs was approved at the eighth general meeting of April 1967. The final package was given to the Holy Father on May 3d. The Holy Father annotated the documents with his observations in his own hand. On June 7th the Holy Father gave his decision to send it to the Congregation of Rites, which gave its approval, which responded on July 10th. He responded affirmatively but required that the formula of consecration not be changed, which caused some rework and the text of the new prayers approved on October 12th 1967.

EP II is roughly based on the anaphora of St. Hippolytus and was assembled by the work of Dom B. Botte.

 

[Gorgias]

This is probably a stupid question, and I hope I am not opening a can of worms, but isn’t the altar Christ too ?

I recall a prayer – maybe it’s a preface? – that makes a reference like that, but offhand, I don’t recall the exact wording.

I think I’d reply that not all modes of presence are equal. So, if we want to point to the congregation or the altar and say “Christ!”, while ignoring the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist in the tabernacle, I’d say that we’re either failing to distinguish between more profound and less profound instances of ‘presence’, or we’re just trying to make a point in a more or less desperate fashion. Just one guy’s thoughts, here…

At any rate, be careful how you word what you are saying. It can come off sounded a lot like “we cannot wait until the day when all you old geezers are dead,” and that is not a very charitable thing to say.

I know. I was trying not to do that. (BTW, I’m more “old geezer” than “young whipper-snapper”, myself. ) . Nevertheless, that’s what happens each time a new generation succeeds a previous generation, and if we refuse to admit it, then we’re just sticking our heads in the sand. We succeeded our elders, and in the process, we dropped some things that were important to them and added others. If we think succeeding generations won’t do the same – or that they have different perspectives than we – then we’re just fooling ourselves.

I checked with my kids. They are in their thirties and forties. They like the Ordinary Form. They like the 70s hymns they grew up with so your wait may be longer than you think.

Are they representative of their generation, though?

 

[Mi_Rose]

They are representative of everyone around here. The one parish that has the latin mass is in the seat of the diocese which has five churches. Attendance at that mass is under 100 people from all over the diocese.

 

[Brendan_64]

Traditionalists attend the OF Mass also and the OF Mass belongs to all Catholics, even those who like some of the old traditions. It is traditionalist’s rite also. Many OF priests are very traditional.

Yes indeed. There are options available that permit the celebrant to say the OF Mass in what would seem to be a very traditional way. This apparent divide between ‘traditionalists’ and ‘non-traditionalists’ as regards the Mass is not, I believe, clear cut. So yes, I think that ‘traditionalists’ have just as much right to comment on the OF Mass as any other Catholic. ‘Traditional’ Catholics, for various reasons, attend the OF as well and play active roles in the parish life of parishes where the EF is not said.

As for what fully conscious and active participation in the Mass actually means, that, I believe, is not clear cut either. So perhaps we ought to focus on what we are doing during Mass and let others get on with doing what they feel they ought to be doing during Mass (so long as they are not causing an undue disturbance or trying to make us do what we feel we ought not be doing)?

 

[OraLabora]

As for what fully conscious and active participation in the Mass actually means, that, I believe, is not clear cut either.

I think it is clear-cut. Sacrosanctum Concilium says how in fact:

1. It is to be stressed that whenever rites, according to their specific nature, make provision for communal celebration involving the presence and active participation of the faithful, this way of celebrating them is to be preferred, so far as possible, to a celebration that is individual and quasi-private.

and:

1. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.

“by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons and songs…”. I think that is pretty cut-and-dried. It also says this is to be preferred to individual and quasi-private celebration for Mass celebrated communally.

Anyone trying to spin praying the rosary or silently following in their missal into being “full, conscious and active participation” is just, well, spin. It is patently obvious what the bishops had in mind in Sacrosanctum Concilium.