Let's Talk Contemplation W/o Debate

[JimR-OCDS]

RobNY

I suppose I’m just confused with what he means by “loving and peaceful attentiveness to God.” How can one be attentive without focusing one’s attention on something, which of course, would obviate everything he wrote in the rest of the paragraph?

From what I understand from St. John, he’s trying to address the human condition in that we try to force everything, according to our will, rather than letting go and letting God. We run out to every prayer meeting we can attend, we wear all sorts of religious symbols, listen to dynamic preachers, do novenas and seek mystical phenomenon, such as visions and such. These will eventually run dry for us spiritually. Until we free ourselves from these desires, and allow the will of God to work freely with our lives, in real life, our growth will be stagnant. Love requires free will, both from ourselves and from God. Seek the God of consultation rather than the consolations of God, is the bottom line in what St. John is saying.

I suppose it’s just such a leap from discursive meditation that I’m not quite getting it. When I try to be ‘attentive’ to God in discursive meditation, what I am trying to do is both to push away distractions and to focus on what I’m meditating on. Since the quiet prayer is so totally unlike discursive meditation, I have a feeling that I won’t “get it” until I quite literally get it.

Discursive meditation, is where we meditate on a gospel story, and some even imagine themselves being present in the story. This is good in the beginning, but reality is, we tend to put our own spin on the story and the meditation, although reflective and enriching in our sensitivities to the Gospel, really are our own imagination, and can be a detriment to union with God in the presence. St. John constantly teaches us to dettach ourselves from our desires. When we begin to rest in God’s presence, in the moment, with only love flowing between ourselves and God, the grace received is transforming. We begin to love as God loves, and life becomes free, because our ability to chose only good, is what true freedom actually is. God can chose only good, because God is love. As we love as God loves, which can only happen through the gift His transforming grace, we too will only be able to chose love, which is only good.

In Christ Jesus
Jim

 

[Joysong]

RobNY:

I suppose I’m just confused with what he means by “loving and peaceful attentiveness to God.” How can one be attentive without focusing one’s attention on something, which of course, would obviate everything he wrote in the rest of the paragraph?

Hi Rob,

Let’s consider your questions in these few quotes and hopefully try to sort out the fuzz.

When a person is living a serious life of devotion, regularly receiving the sacraments to remain in grace, and doing a lot of meditation and prayer, he develops a natural loving awareness that adverts to God very often throughout the day.

If you are married, think back to when you gradually fell in love. Did you not find yourself just ‘remembering lovingly’ your beloved, without any specific thoughts of her other than the warmness of love? Just an inward glance of reflection throughout your day, perhaps coupled with a desire to see her soon, or speak with her? It is simply the wordless attentiveness of your heart that grew as your relationship became more intimate and personal.

In the beginning, there are many exchanges in communication to discover more about this person who has captivated you. But much later, it becomes very quiet, just content to hold hands and be together. The talking dries up to a great extent, being replaced with just ‘being’ because the process of discovery has filled its purpose.

In it he says, “the fire of love is not commonly felt at the outset.” He says that “individuals generally do not perceive this love in the beginning.” “Instead of this love which is enkindled afterward, they harbor, in the midst of the dryness and emptiness of their faculties, a habitual care and solicitude for God accompanied by grief or fear about not serving him.”

Take a cue from the above example and relate it to God. The purpose of discovery (meditation) has dried up, because whenever the person thinks of God, he already loves Him, and has no inkling or desire to read about Him in order to love Him. Books have lost their attraction, and it becomes utterly dry and almost impossible to use them. The intellect rejects the very idea of more reading. Yet the person is not receiving the consoling presence of God when it remembers Him, and this, too is dry.

Being unable to read and find joy in its meditation, yet not being fed with interior relish (enkindling) in God’s presence, the soul is really disturbed about what is wrong. It can’t go back, but it has no idea how to go forward. St. John wisely says just to go to prayer and refrain from driving your faculties to ‘perform’ the enkindling. Just ‘be’ with God, saying, ‘here I am Lord’ though you feel nothing but emptiness.

Fair enough. But I’m getting so confused by St. John’s prerequisites for giving up discursive prayer and letting oneself enter into quiet prayer. In the Ascent of Mount Carmel, bk. II, ch. 13, he says that the third and decisive sign for this transition is that the person likes to remain, “alone in loving awareness of God.”

That would be very hard for a person to do if they are not brought to that degree of advancement in prayer, which is why St. John insists that all three signs be present before attempting this.

• inability to meditate as formerly
• unable to find or desire consolation in things of the world
• loving attentiveness (remembrance) to God throughout most of the day (even in sleep)

I’m not sure if you noticed this in the Ascent, but the transition period is not abrupt, and there are some periods when you CAN meditate. As long as you are able to do so, continue, for this will feed the intellect and renew devotion. But when it becomes consistent that one cannot find relish in meditation, that is when it has REALLY dried up. The path is now changed.

Rob, I know how difficult this is, and you are doing quite well in phrasing your concerns. St. John can be quite hard to understand. You are not alone, and I would bet many of us have poured over his writings a hundred times in attempts to grasp his teaching.

Carole

 

[Joysong]

Something just came to mind and since the other post is rather long, I did not think an ‘edit’ would be good.

Just to clarify about reading/meditation, with a word of caution.
This refers only to prayer time, where the person uses books or devotionals as prayer, and reflects on these in God’s presence, and then lifts its petitions in prayer during and/or after the exercise.

I misunderstood St. John, thinking that now it has REALLY dried up for me, I should leave all books alone. Well, I learned after a long time, that books should be used, including scripture, as ongoing study. The difference is in not relying on the subject matter for devotion or consolation as we did formerly.

I am one of those guilty of spiritual gluttony, for spiritual reading was my avid, and I do mean AVID, pursuit for many years. And God blessed me with wonderful insights that helped me to grow. But yeah, the day comes, I’m afraid. You will KNOW when it happens! Trust me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Joysong

I misunderstood St. John, thinking that now it has REALLY dried up for me, I should leave all books alone. Well, I learned after a long time, that books should be used, including scripture, as ongoing study. The difference is in not relying on the subject matter for devotion or consolation as we did formerly.

True, but even there, for many, the books will become limited. St. Theresa eventually only read the Bible and the Imitation of Christ. She lost desire to read anything else.

Jim

 

[Joysong]

JimR-OCDS:

True, but even there, for many, the books will become limited. St. Theresa eventually only read the Bible and the Imitation of Christ. She lost desire to read anything else.

Did you mean little Therese? I do remember reading that she was so much into the Imitation that her sisters quizzed her, and she was able to recite the page from memory.

However, in her later life, St. John of the Cross’s writings were her exclusive fare along with the bible, as you mentioned. Since she had less need of books for ongoing study, being a monastic, I had the feeling that she used these two sources primarily for prayer, as well as for deeper understanding. Since she suffered the extremities of the Dark Night, I can believe St. John was much help to her.

Maybe I wasn’t very clear in my last post about the use of books for study. For most of us called to live the active life (even if it is contemplative) and desirous of furthering God’s Kingdom in the world, it would be necessary to keep up with our studies and read, providing we don’t have expectations that these will provide “devotion.” There is so much happening in the Church that it is hard to keep up, but I think it is most desirous that we make the effort.

 

[RobNY]

I’m not sure if you noticed this in the Ascent, but the transition period is not abrupt, and there are some periods when you CAN meditate. As long as you are able to do so, continue, for this will feed the intellect and renew devotion. But when it becomes consistent that one cannot find relish in meditation, that is when it has REALLY dried up. The path is now changed.

Definitely, I do remember that. He mentions that for some people it is broken and not sudden.

Rob, I know how difficult this is, and you are doing quite well in phrasing your concerns. St. John can be quite hard to understand. You are not alone, and I would bet many of us have poured over his writings a hundred times in attempts to grasp his teaching.

Carole

Thanks for your posts. They were all very helpful. You too Jim. God bless.

-Rob

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Joysong

Did you mean little Therese?

Yes, Theresa, not Teresa, which of course are two different saints.

Jim

 

[Jeanette_L]

Do you mind if I ask a question in general here? (JR, don’t laugh! )

When studying the Saints journeys in the contemplative life, are we saying that these are the normative ways that this takes place, as if there are not other ways?

I mean, because these are the experiences of a few, does this make them normative or even probable for others who desire the same end?

Are we making it harder than it has to be - in other words - by trying to follow some kind of formula?

I’m completely asking in general here, because I have not studied this, I am curious about it, it just seems to me, generally speaking, that I have never met anyone whose journey is exactly the same as anyone else’s, whether in life or love or religion - we all seem to have unique roads and I’m wondering if this would happen in like manner with the contemplative life?

 

[RobNY]

Jeanette,

If you can’t tell, my book learning out paces my prayer life, so I would advise you to defer to my elders on this thread where we differ. But, in any case, I would say that people like St. John of the Cross reject the idea that there is any “method” which is involved. St. John explicitly rejects that there is any such method-- prayer life is all about a deepening interpersonal relationship with God. They describe a in a general way how the interior life develops in a Christian, and I think St. John explicitly notes that there are as many paths as there are individual Christians. God leads all of us as individuals to him.

-Rob

 

[Jeanette_L]

Jeanette,

If you can’t tell, my book learning out paces my prayer life, so I would advise you to defer to my elders on this thread where we differ. But, in any case, I would say that people like St. John of the Cross reject the idea that there is any “method” which is involved. St. John explicitly rejects that there is any such method-- prayer life is all about a deepening interpersonal relationship with God. They describe a in a general way how the interior life develops in a Christian, and I think St. John explicitly notes that there are as many paths as there are individual Christians. God leads all of us as individuals to him.

-Rob

Thank you Rob, I appreciate your response.

St. John of the Cross’s Dark Night is quite frankly, the only book on this topic I have even attempted to read so far, and that was started a couple of years ago when I had so many other things going on in my conversion process. I found him to be completely foreign to me and just plain overwhelming, I never bothered to finish it.

I figured the topic would resurface for me at a better time, maybe that time has come.

I think I will have to pick him up again and try to dig deep. Knowing at least that I don’t have to have that frame of mind that this is supposed to be my only way, I might not be as confused or even frightened by it.

 

[JReducation]

Jeanette makes a valid observation. St. John of the Cross has been quoted and dissected ( ) to pieces in this thread. I believe it is because he is such a prolific writer on the theology of the spiritual life.

We must remember several things. St. John of the Cross is not the only theologian in this field, though by far the most outstanding.

He is also writing theology using poetry. What can I tell you? The man had many skills, even though he was only 5ft tall. This often makes him very difficult to comprehend (not his height, his use of poetry to write theology), especially if you are not a theologian.

As I always tell my students, when reading any of the Mystical Theologians one must always beware that they are describing what cannot be seen and that in the wrong hands, this stuff is dangerous. It has led people to psychotic experiences or even to practices that lead one away from the ultimate goal, which is always God. You must always work with a spiritual director and a confessor. By the way, a Pastoral Counselor is a different kind of minister.

For those who are beginning their journey in the contemplative life, biographies of saints and outstanding Christians are good. The lives of the saints can serve as great guide books. If we take a saint with whom we identify and begin to apply what we learn from their lives, it’s a good beginning.

For those who are new to the Catholic faith I like to recommend converts such as St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, Catherine Doherty and Dorothy Day. These women began their journey with little steps. Those are probably more appropriate for many people, not just converts.

The important thing is to keep in mind that the ultimate goal is union with the Beloved. How one gets there is going to depend on the nature of the person, one’s life circumstances and the gifts of grace.

There are some elements that are necessary for any journey of faith. First of course is faith, second is prayer, the Church and finally charity. Contemplation always manifests itself through great acts of love, whether they be within the family or the world.

You have great contemplatives such as St. Monica. Her life of prayer began with her concern for her son, St. Augustine. As she went deeper into prayer, she experienced the call to silence and to BE before God. At that point, even her son was no longer important, not because she gave up on his salvation, but because she trusted that God was all powerful and grace could do what her prayers could not. She eventually evolved into a silent presence before God.

Another great example for those who are looking for one is St. Francis. He borrowed a thought from another great saint and made it his own. “I am what I am before God and nothing else.” When he approached time with God he began with this thought. From that point on, he let the Holy Spirit take over. He was aware that he could bring nothing to the table that God didn’t already know. He learned to present his concerns, remorse, praise and worship before the Lord. Once that was done, the rest was a matter of waiting for God.

Sometimes we try too hard at prayer. Prayer is not supposed to be a punishment, though at times it may feel like that. Prayer is supposed to be two friends spending time together.

If you observe monks, they follow a routine. Their prayer life revolves around the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours. From there they build periods of silence in God’s presence into their daily schedule. Sometimes they just doze off during these periods, at other times, they experience great consolation. The important thing that Benedict and Basil, the patriarchs of monasticism, taught was hospitality. Not only were the monks to be hospitable to travelers who came to their door, they were to be hospitable to Christ. The door to their soul was always open to the Divine Pilgrim. They never know when he’s going to walk in. They sit in silence and wait. Thomas Merton explains this very well in his classic, The Seven Story Mountain.

Finally, if anyone out there is leading a very active life and needs some inspiration for prayer and contemplation, I strongly recommend reading Henri Nowen. That spelling doesn’t look right. Oh well.

I hope this helps some people.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In my experience, if you attempt to go to an area of prayer that you are not ready for, you will not enter it anyway. The Lord will direct you to where you need to be.

Caremlite Spirituality is one path, that the Lord leads some to. However, it may not be for everyone. The first time I read St. Teresa’s “Way of Perfection,” I got no further than a couple pages, and it made no sense so I put it on the book self, and didn’t find interest in it again, for 10 years. Then, suddenly, when I was brought into a OCDS group, the book came alive.

Also, I didn’t think of it until now, but in reality, even in the OCDS formation, they never start you with St. John of the Cross. You begin with St. Teresa’s “Way of Perfection.” Then, the “Interior Castle,” and after those, you begin with St. John of the Cross, “Ascent of Mt Carmel.” The “Dark Night,” and poems don’t come until you’ve made promises.

So, it may not be conducive for people to jump into St. John of the Cross too early. However, that being said, it is the Lord who will lead you to the food you need.

For me, by journey began with St. Francis of Assisi. In fact, my wife and myself were first looking for a 3rd order Franciscan group, before we found Carmel. But it was in that search the Lord led us to where we are.

All the Saints have much to teach us.

This was my experience, but I urge you, follow your own, not mine or anyone else. Your experience is yours and the Lord Jesus knows how to feed you best. It is in Him, you must place your trust, not in anything I or others have written here. What we have written, may be a guide, or if may not. It isn’t better or worse than other ways. If its what God wants you to follow, great. If not, he’ll lead you to another path, that will be best for you.

In the end, union with Jesus Christ will happen, if you devote yourself to Him completely.

Jim

 

[JReducation]

In my experience, if you attempt to go to an area of prayer that you are not ready for, you will not enter it anyway. The Lord will direct you to where you need to be.

Caremlite Spirituality is one path, that the Lord leads some to. However, it may not be for everyone. The first time I read St. Teresa’s “Way of Perfection,” I got no further than a couple pages, and it made no sense so I put it on the book self, and didn’t find interest in it again, for 10 years. Then, suddenly, when I was brought into a OCDS group, the book came alive.

Also, I didn’t think of it until now, but in reality, even in the OCDS formation, they never start you with St. John of the Cross. You begin with St. Teresa’s “Way of Perfection.” Then, the “Interior Castle,” and after those, you begin with St. John of the Cross, “Ascent of Mt Carmel.” The “Dark Night,” and poems don’t come until you’ve made promises.

So, it may not be conducive for people to jump into St. John of the Cross too early. However, that being said, it is the Lord who will lead you to the food you need.

For me, by journey began with St. Francis of Assisi. In fact, my wife and myself were first looking for a 3rd order Franciscan group, before we found Carmel. But it was in that search the Lord led us to where we are.

All the Saints have much to teach us.

This was my experience, but I urge you, follow your own, not mine or anyone else. Your experience is yours and the Lord Jesus knows how to feed you best. It is in Him, you must place your trust, not in anything I or others have written here. What we have written, may be a guide, or if may not. It isn’t better or worse than other ways. If its what God wants you to follow, great. If not, he’ll lead you to another path, that will be best for you.

In the end, union with Jesus Christ will happen, if you devote yourself to Him completely.

Jim

I had a similar experience. I am a Catholic Jew, though no longer of the Jewish faith. My Catholic father and Jewish mother agreed to send my brothers and me to Catholic schools. We were educated by Capuchin-Franciscan Friars (Today they prefer the American English word, Brother instead of Friar, but’s that’s another issue). Anyway, I came to the spiritual life down the Jewish path.

As I look back, I see how the Lord used St. Francis’ spirituality to bring me to the Church and take me along the path of spiritual growth.

We all journey down different roads, as Jim says. God leads the way.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I appreciate the discussion so far. The whole idea of the Contemplative life can be very confusing, especially for newcomers, whether new to Catholicism or new to really exploring the faith. And there is such a wealth of information available that it can be overwhelming even knowing where to begin.

And like I said previously, I happened to pick up probably the wrong book at the time, it was just too deep, I should have been starting with something more fundamental and basic.

Thanks for the great suggestions, I am going to look through the books I already have and see if I’ve overlooked some gems that I’ve never gotten to, maybe I will find something more appropriate. If not, there are plenty of resources in finding what I need.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I had a similar experience. I am a Catholic Jew, though no longer of the Jewish faith. My Catholic father and Jewish mother agreed to send my brothers and me to Catholic schools. We were educated by Capuchin-Franciscan Friars (Today they prefer the American English word, Brother instead of Friar, but’s that’s another issue). Anyway, I came to the spiritual life down the Jewish path.

As I look back, I see how the Lord used St. Francis’ spirituality to bring me to the Church and take me along the path of spiritual growth.

We all journey down different roads, as Jim says. God leads the way.

Have your other family members embraced the Catholic faith also?

I have heard the testimonies of many Jewish converts to the Catholic Church and they have such an appreciation for the fulfillment of the Jewish Traditions within the Catholic Traditions. I am always excited to hear those conversations, it makes the Old Testament come so much more alive for me than it had previously, although I have always had a love for the Scriptures of both Testaments.

Rosalind Moss is the first who comes to mind, and I believe there is also a gentleman I’ve seen on EWTN, David Moss, ( if I’m not mistaken about his name) who has a great conversion story also. They are very inspiring to hear.

So much to learn, so little capacity to get it all in as quickly as I’d like!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I had a similar experience. I am a Catholic Jew, though no longer of the Jewish faith. My Catholic father and Jewish mother agreed to send my brothers and me to Catholic schools. We were educated by Capuchin-Franciscan Friars (Today they prefer the American English word, Brother instead of Friar, but’s that’s another issue). Anyway, I came to the spiritual life down the Jewish path.

As I look back, I see how the Lord used St. Francis’ spirituality to bring me to the Church and take me along the path of spiritual growth.

We all journey down different roads, as Jim says. God leads the way.

One of the Trappist Monks at St. Joseph’s Abbey, where I make an annual retreat is a Jewish convert. He’s been a monk for over 50 years and had authored some books, but they are no longer in print. His name is Fr Raphael. He was the retreat master, the first week-end I made a retreat there. Ironically, one of the retreatants was also a Jewish convert, who had just converted about two years before. The two hit it off well.

Jim

 

[johnco]

hi,

fr. thomas dubay,s book “fire within” covers much of these discussions,excellently. give him a try

God bless,

johnco

 

[Jeanette_L]

hi,

fr. thomas dubay,s book “fire within” covers much of these discussions,excellently. give him a try

God bless,

johnco

I love Fr. Dubay! He had a series on EWTN on this book, it’s been a while since I’ve seen that. Thanks for reminding me of him.

 

[JReducation]

hi,

fr. thomas dubay,s book “fire within” covers much of these discussions,excellently. give him a try

God bless,

johnco

I love Fr. Dubay’s ideas and how he breaksdown theology. I like his written works.

I have to respectfully say, that I heard him once on EWTN and I had to change the channel. He’s not my style of speaker. I have no idea why.

There is a lay thelogian on EWTN, he’s a convert from Protestantism. What’s his name?

He’s an excellent speaker.

If anyone remembers his name, please post it.

Also the TOR friar, Fr. Scalon (sp?) he’s very lively. I like listening to him too.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I love Fr. Dubay’s ideas and how he breaksdown theology. I like his written works.

I have to respectfully say, that I heard him once on EWTN and I had to change the channel. He’s not my style of speaker. I have no idea why.

There is a lay thelogian on EWTN, he’s a convert from Protestantism. What’s his name?

He’s an excellent speaker.

If anyone remembers his name, please post it.

Also the TOR friar, Fr. Scalon (sp?) he’s very lively. I like listening to him too.

Scott Hahn is probably who you are thinking of. I have most of his books. He was instrumental in my conversion also. Many many stepping stones on that path.

I’m not sure about the friar though, there are so many I’ve seen through the last few years that I like. There’s a Fr. Anthony …something that I love as well, he has some series on the Holy Spirit that are excellent. I need to now go look for their names because I won’t sleep tonight until it’s settled.