Let's Talk Contemplation W/o Debate

[Joysong]

I think you may be referring to Fr. Michael Scanlon, who hosts some talks from Franciscan University at Steubenville.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I think you may be referring to Fr. Michael Scanlon, who hosts some talks from Franciscan University at Steubenville.

Bingo! Thank you Joysong! You just saved me some time.

I think he is a wonderful, thoughtful and easy to listen to theologian. I love the talks they do.

The other Fr. I was messing up badly above is Fr. Andrew Apostoli.

Now I can sleep tonight.

 

[JReducation]

I think you may be referring to Fr. Michael Scanlon, who hosts some talks from Franciscan University at Steubenville.

YESSSSSSSSSSS

I love to watch him in action. He’s lively.

 

[catharina]

I think the place to start with the contemplative life is actually the active life. Learning to see Christ in others as you go about service helps to understand Him better. The Rosary, of course, is one of the best starting points since it combines vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplation. John of the Cross is an excellent author for this sort of thiong, though he is a little thick.
I think that the most important thing about the contemplative way is that we try to recognize God’s presence in everything. As long as we are doing our best to seek Him, He helps the soul find Him.

I agree that awareness of the Presence of God is the starting point. Often in my daily life, I will say/pray “Dear Lord, why are You so good to me?” The answer is always the same: because He is God. This spontaneous prayer can be triggered by seeing a flower in bloom, receiving the smile of a child, hearing from an old friend, enjoying good health. The Presence of God is all.

 

[JReducation]

Have your other family members embraced the Catholic faith also?

LOL . . . it’s very confusing.

One of my brothers and his family are Jewish. My sister and her children are Jewish, but my brother-in-law is Catholic. My other brother is Jewish, but his children are Catholic, because his wife is Catholic. The Jewish law is very clear. The faith of the mother is the faith of the chid.

After the person reaches adulthood, which is at the time of his Bar Mitzvah, then he can freely choose to become a Christian or whatever. The Bar Mitzvah is at the age of ascension (after the 13th birthday). This is not what Jewish parents want of their children, but the law does not allow the parent to interfere, for the individual is an adult.

Since this thread is about contemplation, I will add this. Judaism has a strong tradition of contemplation. It is believed that John the Baptist and maybe Jesus himself, belonged to a group of mystics at Qumran, the area where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. Right now it is speculation whether they belonged to this group or not. But there are similarities between the mystical styles.

The finding of the scrolls at this place suggests that these mystics were Jews in their early history and later Christians. Why else would they have Christian scriptures there?

Some mystical theologians believe that the monks at Qumran dedicated themselves to contemplating the Good News of Salvation and therefore took it upon them to write it, which could explain the sacred srolls in that place. This has to be studied more to be conclusive. But it’s a good hypothesis.

What is enriching for our spiritual life is that from the very early years of God’s self-disclosure to Israel to this day, people have sought a deeper union with God through solitude, especially in the desert. Therefore, the desert experience was not a creation of Christianity, but handed down to the first Christians from their Jewish anscestors.

Which means that the God of Israel and the God of Jesus Christ is the same God. Why else would they follow the same path to union with God? This is an even more compelling reason for someone such as me to find Christianity easy to accept. There is a mystical bridge between the two faiths.

Both Jews and Gentiles have sought a deeper union with God in the same manner for thousands of years, through the desert experience, detaching ourselves from everything that would be contrary to God’s will and God’s plan for us and from everything that distracts us from God’s Word and work.

 

[JRKH]

In other words, we transform the world with the gifts that we receive through Christian contemplation.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JReducation

The first contemplative, who precedes John the Baptist and Jesus, is the father of the Carmelites, the prophet Elijah. Who, when on Mt Carmel, waited for the Lord. There was a strong storm, but Elijah said, that is not the Lord. There there was strong thunder, Elijah said, that is not the Lord. Then there was flooding and land slides, Elijah said, that is not the Lord. Then, there was a gentle breeze and there Elijah said, here is the Lord.

FYI, the sect at the Qumran site, where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, are believed to be Essenes. Some people think that John the Baptist and Jesus would have been part of them, but according to further study on the teachings and beliefs of the Essenes, they would not have been. In fact, some of Jess’s teachings in the gospel, which he opposed, were from the Essenes. “You have heard it said, love your brothers, but hate your enemies,” is an Essenes teaching, not the Jews of the Temple.

Anyway, thats for another thread.

Jim

 

[Jeanette_L]

LOL . . . it’s very confusing.

One of my brothers and his family are Jewish. My sister and her children are Jewish, but my brother-in-law is Catholic. My other brother is Jewish, but his children are Catholic, because his wife is Catholic. The Jewish law is very clear. The faith of the mother is the faith of the chid.

After the person reaches adulthood, which is at the time of his Bar Mitzvah, then he can freely choose to become a Christian or whatever. The Bar Mitzvah is at the age of ascension (after the 13th birthday). This is not what Jewish parents want of their children, but the law does not allow the parent to interfere, for the individual is an adult.

Since this thread is about contemplation, I will add this. Judaism has a strong tradition of contemplation. It is believed that John the Baptist and maybe Jesus himself, belonged to a group of mystics at Qumran, the area where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. Right now it is speculation whether they belonged to this group or not. But there are similarities between the mystical styles.

The finding of the scrolls at this place suggests that these mystics were Jews in their early history and later Christians. Why else would they have Christian scriptures there?

Some mystical theologians believe that the monks at Qumran dedicated themselves to contemplating the Good News of Salvation and therefore took it upon them to write it, which could explain the sacred srolls in that place. This has to be studied more to be conclusive. But it’s a good hypothesis.

What is enriching for our spiritual life is that from the very early years of God’s self-disclosure to Israel to this day, people have sought a deeper union with God through solitude, especially in the desert. Therefore, the desert experience was not a creation of Christianity, but handed down to the first Christians from their Jewish anscestors.

Which means that the God of Israel and the God of Jesus Christ is the same God. Why else would they follow the same path to union with God? This is an even more compelling reason for someone such as me to find Christianity easy to accept. There is a mystical bridge between the two faiths.

Both Jews and Gentiles have sought a deeper union with God in the same manner for thousands of years, through the desert experience, detaching ourselves from everything that would be contrary to God’s will and God’s plan for us and from everything that distracts us from God’s Word and work.

Are these the Assines? (sp ) I’ve heard that theory as well about John the Baptist and Christ himself possibly spending time with them. I can’t recall now the connections, maybe some of the parables or analagies of Christ point in that direction? Maybe because they were known for celibacy; also weren’t they known for baptisim as a sign of repentance? I know I’ve seen or read these things somewhere in my travels.

It’s interesting how your whole family is a mixture of Jewish and Catholic culture, I guess everyone is very comfortable with that so you are very blessed to not have conflict in that area.

I wonder why the desert? Is it because there is so little there to distract, even little life? I was thinking how I feel that profound awareness of God when I’m near the ocean or in the mountains, but I can see how the desert would be a completely unique experience just in it’s desolation.

 

[Jeanette_L]

JReducation

The first contemplative, who precedes John the Baptist and Jesus, is the father of the Carmelites, the prophet Elijah. Who, when on Mt Carmel, waited for the Lord. There was a strong storm, but Elijah said, that is not the Lord. There there was strong thunder, Elijah said, that is not the Lord. Then there was flooding and land slides, Elijah said, that is not the Lord. Then, there was a gentle breeze and there Elijah said, here is the Lord.

FYI, the sect at the Qumran site, where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, are believed to be Essenes. Some people think that John the Baptist and Jesus would have been part of them, but according to further study on the teachings and beliefs of the Essenes, they would not have been. In fact, some of Jess’s teachings in the gospel, which he opposed, were from the Essenes. “You have heard it said, love your brothers, but hate your enemies,” is an Essenes teaching, not the Jews of the Temple.

Anyway, thats for another thread.

Jim

Sorry, I didn’t make it down to your post yet before I replied. We were thinking somewhat along the same path, your spelling was much better.

 

[JReducation]

Jeanette and Jim are both correct in that there was a group in or around Qumran known as the Essenes. It is also true, that it is unlikely that either Jesus or John the Baptist would have belonged to that group. Orthodox Judaism does not include them in in its history. However, there were several groups of contemplatives long before the first Christian century, when Jesus and John lived. Jim is correct, there is a group that dates as far back as Elijah and from whom Carmelite spirituality draws its inluence. It is uncertain as to how widespread they were, but apparently they were large enough to exercise a great deal of influence among Jews and later among Christians.

Prior to that, it is unlikely that there were monsatic communities in the early Church as it would not have been practical. The focus of the first two centuries seems to have been on a Christological and liturgical spirituality.

Having said this, this is why to this day, the Church and the mystics considered the entire liturgy an essential part of their journey toward union with God. When we speak of the entire liturgy we we mean the liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist which constitute the mass and the liturgy of the hours which sanctify each part of the day through the praying of the psalms and meditation on scriptures and the early writings of the Church. Those who deal study mystical theology are also well versed in the merits and role of litugy in the conemplation.

If we observe the contemplative, the Eucharistic celebration, not just perpetual adoration, is essential to the journey toward union with God, as is the constant praying of the Liturgy of the Hours. Union with God begins though union with the Church in sacrifice and prayer.

Even mystics such as Teresa and John of the Cross who evolved from discursive prayer to a spiritual union with God, where words and images were no longer necessary, continuosly returned to the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours.

The primary purpose of contemplation is to worship and glorify God. There is no higher form of worship and praising God’s glory than the Liturgy. No matter how silent and detached from the things of this world one may become, the sacrifice of Jesus can never be outdone, nor can man find words more sublime with which to worship God than his inspired word found in the scriptures. This is why the contemplative life is anchored on the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours. Through the sacrifice of the Mass we are joined to Christ in his passion, both death and resurrection. In the Liturgy of the Hours we use the words of the Psalmist, which were inspired by God himself to offer parise and glory to God.

Through the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours the Church prays as one boyd, regardless of the numbers that may be together at the moment. However, it is also the belief of the Church that the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours should be celebrated with others.

Even hermits live in community, even though they seldom see each other. One such group are the Carthusians. As you see, the strictest form of contemplative life places extreme urgency on the Eucharist, Liturgy of the Hours and community, because the fruit of contemplation is charity. Charity, like a gentle breeze that moves the waves of the ocean or the branches of the forest, also moves the Church. Contemplation leads to Charity, which plays itself out in relationship to others.

Although strictly contemplative communities, such as hermits, monks and nuns seldom watch TV or read People Magazine, staying in tune to the happenings and the issues of the world is important to them. Each community works out their different way of doing this. Nonetheless, contemplatives are very well informed of world events.

The life of prayer and charity is both for its own sake as it is for the salvationof the world.

Just as an aside, my experience with contemplative monastics has been enlightening and even amusing. They are often more aware of what is happening in the world than I am. There was a young actress by the name of Dolores Hart who made many movies. Some may remember her as St. Clare in the movie Francis of Assisi with Bradford Dillman. She also made some movies with Elvis Presley. She left Hollywood to become a cloistered Benedictine nun. Mother Dolores, as she is known today, is the only member of the Film Academy. She actually has a vote in the Academy Awards and watches every movie, to this day. If you’re interested, you can find out more about her at this site.

elvis.com.au/presley/rev_mother_dolores.shtml

As you will see from this article, contemplation is not the same as contempt for the world. On the contrary, the closer that the contemplative gets to God, the greater his or her love for humanity, just as Christ loved us.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Just a little bump.

 

[elt1956]

In the few weeks that I have been on CAF I have observed that there are many men and women of faith here who often get trampled by the anger that others bring to the threads. The pattern seems to be the same. Someone is looking for nutrition for the soul and ends up in endless battles that often fall short in charity.

My hope is that this thread will attract people who want to know about contemplation and its application in today’s world and those who can share their experience. Obviously, when one speaks of the spiritual life, you cannot do so without discussing dogma, tradition, liturgy, scripture, Church law and morality.

However, the end goal of the spiritual life is to reach union with God through prayer and contemplation. This is how we work out our salvation.

The Holy Spirit has gifted the Church with many forms of the spiritual life, just to name a few: Benedictine, Franciscan, Jesuit, Carmelite, Vincentian, Salesian and more. He has also gifted many men and women with deep insight into the contemplative life of the Christian, such as Benedict, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa, John Paul II, Elizabeth Ann Seton, Catherine Doherty, and thousands of others.

Contrary to popular belief, the contemplative life is for all Christians. Many people confuse it with the cloistered life. The cloistered life is for those whom God calls to the monastery or the hermitage. Not everyone is called to that form of life. Everyone is called to be a contemplative.

I hope that others out there who are interested in discussing, sharing and learning more about the contemplative life in an overly active world will share with us.

We’re not looking for private revelations or miracles. Of course, centeriing spirituality is off limits on CAF.

That being said, there is so much that has been written and taught by the masters of the spiritual life that we can share. Our goal is to tie in the contemplative life with our daily activities, the needs of the Church and the circumstances in which the world finds itself.

In other words, we transform the world with the gifts that we receive through Christian contemplation.

The question on the table is how do we achieve contemplation and remain in the world, but not of the world?

Hello again J.R. I have read your posts on other forums and enjoy them very much. I would like very much to know more about the task of contemplation, how to begin, where to find information etc. Also, I saw something posted here that the Rosary is a great form of prayer with which to begin meditation. I have found what I think is a more than acceptable book which would help one meditate/contemplate? on the mysteries of the Rosary. It is called, of course, The Rosary, by Gary Jansen. It is beautifully illustrated. It does contain some unfamiliar items I have never seen such as additional? mysteries. Anyone seen this book?