Let's talk indulgences

[ChristIsLord]

*1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?

“**An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” **
“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.” The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted*

i just don’t understand indulgences, of all things in the church that i get tripped up on, indulgences are at the top of my list. how do my actions on earth… say… saying a certain prayer in a prescribed way lessen the “temporal” punishment of those in purgatory? this really makes no sense to me at all, and considering how widespread indulgences being bought and sold throughout church history it worries me that this started within the church as merely a money making venture then later had to be justified. my mother says as a child in catholic school she would buy indulgences from the nuns who said it would release souls in purgatory, she would give her lunch money for it.

anyway, indulgences seem to be the one thing we as catholics never really talk about, even the very orthodox catholics out there just really don’t talk openly about indulgences.

 

[Timmy_Z]

how do my actions on earth… say… saying a certain prayer in a prescribed way lessen the “temporal” punishment of those in purgatory? this really makes no sense to me at all,

You have hit the nail on the head.

 

[apromisemade]

I just can’t wrap my head around how someone could think it possible to monetarily pay their way out of reperation for their sins.

 

[Timmy_Z]

I just can’t wrap my head around how someone could think it possible to monetarily pay their way out of reperation for their sins.

There have always been two ways the world has thought to get out of trouble: pay your way out, or work you way out.

The Gospel is different. Indulgences are not the gospel.

-Tim

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Hi CIL,

Maybe you can take it one step at a time:

how do my actions on earth… say… saying a certain prayer in a prescribed way lessen the “temporal” punishment of those in purgatory?

Do you think your actions on earth have any bearing on eternity?

Do you think that prayers you say effect people on earth?

Do you think that prayers you say could effect people in purgatory?

That might be a good place to start!
VC

 

[pprimeau1976]

It all has to do with the authority that Christ gave the Apostles, which was then passed down to their successors, the bishops of the Church. In particular, look at what Christ said to Peter

To Peter:

“I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19

And look at what Christ said to the apostles:

“Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” John 20:23

These two delegations by Christ to the apostles and therefore to their successors give indulgences their scriptural backing.

However, if you doubt apostolic succession, that’s another matter.

 

[apromisemade]

It all has to do with the authority that Christ gave the Apostles, which was then passed down to their successors, the bishops of the Church. In particular, look at what Christ said to Peter

To Peter:

“I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19

And look at what Christ said to the apostles:

“Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” John 20:23

These two delegations by Christ to the apostles and therefore to their successors give indulgences their scriptural backing.

However, if you doubt apostolic succession, that’s another matter.

I don’t think that was really the question though. The issue is not whether or not the apostle and/or the Church have the authority to forgive sins, it is whether it is possible to pay your way out of sin and be forgiven simply because you payed someone with earthly money.

 

[Alethiaphile]

It all has to do with the authority that Christ gave the Apostles, which was then passed down to their successors, the bishops of the Church. In particular, look at what Christ said to Peter
To Peter:
“I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19
And look at what Christ said to the apostles:
“Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” John 20:23
These two delegations by Christ to the apostles and therefore to their successors give indulgences their scriptural backing.
However, if you doubt apostolic succession, that’s another matter.

The latter scritpure doesn’t seem to be relevant because it deals with forgiveness of sins, and indulgences don’t involve forgiveness of guilt of sin, according to the CCC.

 

[Thing]

I believe the Church does not say a soul Will be released from purgatory with an indulgence. The Churchs’ jurisdiction is over the living in this world. An indulgence Will help a living person. The souls in purgatory are in Gods jurisdiction as only God alone really knows which individual soul is in heaven, purgatory, or hell.
The Church says that a soul May be released from purgatory or otherwise helped, by an indulgence, or good deed, or alms-giving, which are all scriptural. An indulgence *May *be used by God for the good of a soul in purgatory.
It seems to me a very selfish and slightly callous thing to refuse even the semblance of an offer of help or kindness to a person who may for all we know be suffering.

 

[Scoobyshme]

I don’t think that was really the question though. The issue is not whether or not the apostle and/or the Church have the authority to forgive sins, it is whether it is possible to pay your way out of sin and be forgiven simply because you payed someone with earthly money.

Indulgences do not have to do with forgiveness of sin. They have to do with the temporal punishment due to sin. Those in Purgatory have already been forgiven all their sins. They are fulfilling God’s justice by paying back the temporal punishment for their sins. Indulgences lessen these punishments. And, no, you cannot do so by paying money to do so. That’s not how it works.

 

[pprimeau1976]

The latter scritpure doesn’t seem to be relevant because it deals with forgiveness of sins, and indulgences don’t involve forgiveness of guilt of sin, according to the CCC.

The latter scripture does not deal with indulgences directly, but it goes to show that Christ gave the apostles authority on earth that affected the goings on in heaven. So , it should not be a scandalous idea that the Church would alleviate the temporal punishment due to sin by encouraging us to be holy.

 

[MarcoPolo]

how do my actions on earth… say… saying a certain prayer in a prescribed way lessen the “temporal” punishment of those in purgatory?

Indulgences only are effective for someone who is cooperating with the Spirit flowing through them. When a person endures suffering, he is effectively participating in the suffering of Christ on the cross. (1 Pet 4:12-19, 2 Cor 1:6, et al). So the power at work is Christ’s. And who will deny that Christ’s suffering does not produce healing? Who will deny that the prayer of the sufferer, united to the power of the Cross, can produce purification in his neighbor?

There are numerous examples of person A in the Bible benefitting from the action of person B (e.g. Mat 8:5-13, Mark 2:3-5, Mat 15:22-28). It was Christ who mediated the benefit to person B because of the endurance of person A.

Do not fall into the trap of denying the power of Christ as a result of suffering with Him.

 

[apromisemade]

And, no, you cannot do so by paying money to do so. That’s not how it works.

Well… How does it work then? How exactly would you define an indulgence? Be specific.

 

[Dauphin]

I just can’t wrap my head around how someone could think it possible to monetarily pay their way out of reperation for their sins.

The giving of alms for indulgences isn’t something scandalous. If done in the right spirit, it won’t be a simple ‘transaction’.

In the past, indulgences were given in exchange for alms, just as they are given today for certain prayers or pilgrimages. In principle, there was nothing wrong with this, but it was discontinued due to abuses. In some instances, indulgences were being “sold” as if remission of temporal punishment would magically occur as soon as the church receives the money. In reality, the alms would always have to be given in a spirit of charity for the indulgence to have any effect.

 

[Dauphin]

I don’t think that was really the question though. The issue is not whether or not the apostle and/or the Church have the authority to forgive sins, it is whether it is possible to pay your way out of sin and be forgiven simply because you payed someone with earthly money.

Again, almsgiving isn’t a simple transaction. It has to be done out of genuine charity for the benefit of the poor or the legitimate needs of the Church.

Since this hasn’t been practiced for hundreds of years, though, it seems an odd thing to be complaining about.

You also seem to misunderstand the purpose of an indulgence. They do not remit sin; they remit only the temporal punishment due to sin.

A common analogy used is the example of a child spilling a carton of orange juice all over the kitchen floor. The child goes to his mother, apologizes, and is forgiven, but he still has to clean up after himself. Just because he has to suffer this “temporal punishment” doesn’t mean that his mother doesn’t forgive him! If, however, the mother was feeling particularly magnanimous, she could grant an “indulgence” and clean it up herself.

 

[RosaryFan]

*1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?

“**An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” ***
“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.” The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted

i just don’t understand indulgences, of all things in the church that i get tripped up on, indulgences are at the top of my list. how do my actions on earth… say… saying a certain prayer in a prescribed way lessen the “temporal” punishment of those in purgatory? this really makes no sense to me at all, and considering how widespread indulgences being bought and sold throughout church history it worries me that this started within the church as merely a money making venture then later had to be justified. my mother says as a child in catholic school she would buy indulgences from the nuns who said it would release souls in purgatory, she would give her lunch money for it.

anyway, indulgences seem to be the one thing we as catholics never really talk about, even the very orthodox catholics out there just really don’t talk openly about indulgences.

Oooh! I’ll talk about indulgences! I love to receive them for the souls in purgatory. I offer them up for my father, aunts, uncles, whomever I know who has passed on. I don’t think they are plenary because of my “attachment to sin”, but partial is okay until I can get rid of that pesky attachment!

To receive plenary indulgences, you must:

1. Have received the sacrament of reconciliation within 8 days of the indulgence (before or after);
2. Said prayers for the intentions of the Holy Father (Our Father, Hail Mary and Apostles Creed will suffice);
3. Have absolutely NO attachment to sin, even venial (that’s the killer);
4. Do the act and actually request the indulgence (i.e. pray a group rosary; spend an hour before the Blessed Sacrament; or do Stations of the Cross on a Friday during Lent, to name but a few).

I have an attachment to a venial sin - I’m a social smoker and I just really love to have a few cigarettes while I’m out with friends. I know this isn’t a serious sin, but vienial nonetheless, and I’m certainly attached. Also, if you’ve committed sin in the past, even if you are sorry and still hold fond memories of that sin, that is also considered an attachment. I’ve come to the conclusion that it is a life-long journey to shed all attachment to sin, hence, making it VERY difficult to receive a plenary indulgence (even if you pay for it ).

I go to confession at least once a month because that makes my time frame wider for receiving indulgences. If I went every 8 days, I’d be set, but currently, I don’t have the time to go quite that often. Ironicly, if I went that often, I would probably gain the graces to shed those attachments.

I really feel our quest for indulgences (i.e. going to confession, trying to shed attachments to sin) really draws us closer to the Lord and helps us to attain the perfection for which we all strive. Once you get to that saintly perfection to which Jesus calls us all, the plenary indulgences come easily. Therefore, I think the Church’s offering of indulgences is a good thing, regardless of past problems. It helps us to strive for pefection.

I’ll stop now - I’m starting to ramble.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Hi RosaryFan

One more requirement: receive Holy Communion.

Also, the Apostolic Penitentiary clarified the “window” of opportunity for confession, prayers for the Pope, and reception of Holy Communion. It is appropriate and more fitting that these be done on the day of the indulgenced act, but they may be done within “about 20” days before or after.

Merry almost Christmas!
VC

 

[RosaryFan]

Hi RosaryFan

One more requirement: receive Holy Communion.

Also, the Apostolic Penitentiary clarified the “window” of opportunity for confession, prayers for the Pope, and reception of Holy Communion. It is appropriate and more fitting that these be done on the day of the indulgenced act, but they may be done within “about 20” days before or after.

Merry almost Christmas!
VC

Oops! How on earth can I forget Holy Communion?

Thanks for the info about the “20 days” - I didn’t know that. Thought it was 8 days. Good to know.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t think that was really the question though. The issue is not whether or not the apostle and/or the Church have the authority to forgive sins, it is whether it is possible to pay your way out of sin and be forgiven simply because you payed someone with earthly money.

No.way. ​

That is nothing to do with the theology of indulgences, which are almost the greatest gift given to the Church. They are good, holy, gracious, & excellent in every way, & to defile them by polluting their good name with wicked practices such as trafficking in them - which is a form of the crime of simony - is an abomination. Men are wicked, but indulgences are good in every way.

IMHO, one of the best things Paul VI did was to reform the discipline governing indulgences by ending features of it that were liable to abuse; the result is that their Christ-centred character is much clearer.

 

[Randy_Carson]

**A PRIMER ON INDULGENCES **
By James Akin
catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp