Let's talk same sex marriage, shall we?

[peduzzi89]

I could write a nice little dissertation about what I think about same-sex marriage right off the bat, but I would be far more delighted to hear what all of you have to say about it Almost 2 years ago, I started an almost identical thread, but now that I have grown more mature and my viewpoints have changed, I would like a fresh go at some indepth discussion.

Now, by indepth I mean I would love to have a discussion which consists of bias-free, open-minded ideas being tossed around and debated. Please don’t just go and copy-and-paste a link of some random website-let’s try to have a smidgen of verisimilitude to our posting I would like to really hear people’s thought processes on how the take the issue into consideration.

One minutia before we start:

~The point that I mean to discuss in this thread is civil marriage, as in one that has no tie to the church (like many opposite-sex marriages today). Keep in mind that, as much as many would advocate for this to be the case, the country’s laws do not take into account the church’s viewpoints on morality. So if you’re just going to type how the church says it’s a sin so there…well perhaps save your philanges the effort As a Catholic, I know full well what the church has to say about homosexuality so let’s stay focused and save discussion on whether or not it’s a sin for another thread since we are all quite aware!

Bearing that in your thoughts, by all means go ahead and discuss something surrounding the issue of same-sex marriage - I look forward to discussion and intelligent debate

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Same-sex “marriage” is wrong. IMO, it doesn’t matter what religious denomination you belong to. I’m a Catholic and I believe it is wrong. If I were a Baptist, Buddhist, Atheist, I’d believe it was wrong. God instituted marriage to be between a man and woman and I couldn’t agree more.

God’s peace to you,
Therese

 

[peduzzi89]

Same-sex “marriage” is wrong. IMO, it doesn’t matter what religious denomination you belong to. I’m a Catholic and I believe it is wrong. If I were a Baptist, Buddhist, Atheist, I’d believe it was wrong. God instituted marriage to be between a man and woman and I couldn’t agree more.
Therese

But the point I tried to make in my introduction (which perhaps wasn’t clear enough) was that the law is not based on any particular set of moral codes, because everyone’s is different. For those who say it is wrong there are just as many who don’t. Contrary to popular belief, laws do not decide what is right and wrong, moral and immoral. Laws are there to protect rights.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

But the point I tried to make in my introduction (which perhaps wasn’t clear enough) was that the law is not based on any particular set of moral codes, because everyone’s is different. For those who say it is wrong there are just as many who don’t. Contrary to popular belief, laws do not decide what is right and wrong, moral and immoral. Laws are there to protect rights.

What would you have us say, Peduzzi? Our Faith isn’t a side show thing. It’s our very lives. To offer our opinion without thinking of the Catholic answer is not right. But like I said, even if I weren’t Catholic I would still believe same-sex unions to be wrong. Maybe I have been Catholic too long? No. Just because it’s becoming a norm, doesn’t mean we should except it or bless it.

You are correct in saying laws are made to protect rights. Abortion was made legal to protect “rights” as well.

 

[jpk1313]

What the gay rights activists want in my opinion is property rights. Sharing pentions and what not. What they are asking for is not really marriage but a social contract not really any different than buissness partners sharing profits. Frankly I find the push for same sex marriage to be asking to much. The very idea requiers not only a change in law but a change in theology. It is not only Christians who are opposed to same sex marriage and homosexuality but every major religion in the world share the same moral out look on sexuality. I say give them their property rights and hopefully they will shut up becuse I’m sick of having to explain that there is no such thing as same sex marriage it simply does not exist, The issue boils down to money and a bunch of angry sinners upset that that they are not getting approval for their sinfull life style.

 

[peduzzi89]

Well the point of this thread is to dicuss and debate…I mean you could just say “well that’s what I think so there” but that wouldn’t be much of a debate…as I said in my intro, if the argument you’re trying to make is about whether/why it’s a sin, then that’s for a different thread. I want to discuss why people think same sex civil marriage shouldn’t be legal. You have yet to give me such a reason, since whether or not you think it’s wrong is completely immaterial to whether or not it should be legalized.

I’m not saying you need to bless or accept same-sex marriage as moral if you don’t want to, but other people shouldn’t be forced to accept your beliefs either.

Abortion laws were also made to protect rights. BUT that conversation is for another thread also so PLEASE do not start on that here.

Best

 

[josephdaniel29]

What would you have us say, Peduzzi? Our Faith isn’t a side show thing. It’s our very lives. To offer our opinion without thinking of the Catholic answer is not right. But like I said, even if I weren’t Catholic I would still believe same-sex unions to be wrong. Maybe I have been Catholic too long? No. Just because it’s becoming a norm, doesn’t mean we should except it or bless it.

I believe the question the OP puts forth has nothing to do with what we believe is “right” or “wrong” but rather what is the proper role of our government. Simply because the majority believes a practice is immoral doesn’t give the government the right to proscribe that practice. We are a society governed by the rule of law, not the rule of the mob.

All of our constitutional protections are in place to protect the rights of the individual against encroachments by the government and the majority. In what way does a gay marriage encroach upon your rights as an individual? Is your right to life, liberty or property violated in anyway by same-sex unions?

If a practice doesn’t violate a single individual right why do we have the right to use the police power of government to stop another individual from engaging in it?

You are correct in saying laws are made to protect rights. Abortion was made legal to protect “rights” as well.

The difference is abortion most certainly does violate a person’s right to life.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[mamabear3]

people always try to make the argument that a gay relationship is no different than a heterosexual relationship. And is it such a lie. most gay people are in open relationships and are not monogamous. i agree with the above poster that gay marriage is mostly about a contract to share property, benefits, etc…

Marriage by it’s very nature is for a man and a woman. THAT’S IT.

 

[peduzzi89]

What the gay rights activists want in my opinion is property rights. Sharing pentions and what not. What they are asking for is not really marriage but a social contract not really any different than buissness partners sharing profits. Frankly I find the push for same sex marriage to be asking to much. The very idea requiers not only a change in law but a change in theology. It is not only Christians who are opposed to same sex marriage and homosexuality but every major religion in the world share the same moral out look on sexuality. I say give them their property rights and hopefully they will shut up becuse I’m sick of having to explain that there is no such thing as same sex marriage it simply does not exist, The issue boils down to money and a bunch of angry sinners upset that that they are not getting approval for their sinfull life style.

Oh to point the finger and say “those sinners.” We are all sinners, jpk.

But anyway, you kind of prove part of my point in what you say. In our society, marriage has become a legal contract consisting of rights. This is true for straight marriages as well. For a straight catholic couple, their marriage is a legal contract in the eyes of the law, nothing more. Many different values are assigned to it by many different people, but the laws only affect the legal side of it. You are perfectly valid in having your opinion on whether or not it is right, but LAWS governing it cannot be based on a religious belief; that would be against the consititution. The beauty of living in this country is that a gay couple could get married and you could go on believing your own beliefs at the same time.

You make it sounds like the gays are all money hungry, when in fact the rights they are trying to obtain are because the comittment they have made to another person is just as much as (and in some cases greater) than their average straight, legally married counterpart. The legal reasons you stated for gay people wanting to get married are the EXACT same reasons that straight people become married by law. The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony does not need any civil sanction, and this fight is not about homosexuals obtaining said Sacrament. It is just about legal rights, as is any other lawful marriage.

The reason I did not address whether or not major religions accept homosexuality is because it is not relevant to this topic.

Best

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I’m not saying you need to bless or accept same-sex marriage as moral if you don’t want to, but other people shouldn’t be forced to accept your beliefs either.

Thank you for that.

Well I agree with the 97% of the posters you’re going to get on this thread who believe that while same-sex marriage may not hurt them as individuals, it will hurt society as a whole. It already has hurt society as a whole. Did you know most suicides are committed by adopted children of homosexuals? If marriage of all things must be redefined, have we let things finally go to hell in a hand basket?

 

[josephdaniel29]

Marriage by it’s very nature is for a man and a woman. THAT’S IT.

So the Christian Taliban continues. Using the police power of government, the only people who can use legally use guns to achieve their goals, to force others to live by religious precepts that they don’t accept.

You have to be very careful with this line of thought my friend. One day we may not be the majority. What happens when the day comes that the atheist majority attempts to use the government to force us to live by their morality?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[lil_flower_luv]

You have to be very careful with this line of thought my friend. One day we may not be the majority. What happens when the day comes that the atheist majority attempts to use the government to force us to live by their morality?

Jesus and His Truth shall triumph in the end. That is all that matters. We are only called to stand by that Truth and defend it.

 

[peduzzi89]

people always try to make the argument that a gay relationship is no different than a heterosexual relationship. And is it such a lie. most gay people are in open relationships and are not monogamous. i agree with the above poster that gay marriage is mostly about a contract to share property, benefits, etc…

Marriage by it’s very nature is for a man and a woman. THAT’S IT.

WELL SAID JOSEPHDANIEL

I must thank-you sincerely for taking the words right from my mouth and saving me the effort of typing them onto this page

As for mamabear, what makes you think you know the general nature of gay relationships as opposed to straight relationships. Clearly something baseless…a.k.a. hear say. If you base what you know about gay people on things like the media and second-hand resources then sure you will think that they are all whores and couldn’t possibly share what a straight couple does. Well, honey, don’t try doing that anywhere else in life because you will be discreditted in the blink of an eye. The majority of gay relationships that I know (as in I personally know the people in them) are comitted, monogamous, and have every bit of the emotional connection as their heterosexual counterparts. (Personal shout out here to a certain asian )

With all due respect, how dare you make such assumptions when you don’t know the whole story? I have experienced in real life that gay people have just as much of a capacity for love and comittment as straight people. As for the whole contract part of it, please read my above post.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Thank you for that.

Well I agree with the 97% of the posters you’re going to get on this thread who believe that while same-sex marriage may not hurt them as individuals, it will hurt society as a whole.

Lots of things can be considered harmful to society. Everything from the internet to beer to big macs cause some kind of damage. Do you feel the government has the right to use force to stop us from eating harmful foods or doing things that take us away from our family?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[josephdaniel29]

Jesus and His Truth shall triumph in the end. That is all that matters. We are only called to stand by that Truth and defend it.

Stand up and defend it all you want. Don’t use the police power of government to stop others from doing things you don’t agree with.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Lots of things can be considered harmful to society. Everything from the internet to beer to big macs cause some kind of damage. Do you feel the government has the right to use force to stop us from eating harmful foods or doing things that take us away from our family?

Who’s side are you on?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Stand up and defend it all you want. Don’t use the police power of government to stop others from doing things you don’t agree with.

Yours in Christ
Joe

You think as a Catholic I’m not called to do that? Sir, please read up on what it is to be Catholic…a follower of the TRUTH. A proclaimer of the Truth.

 

[josephdaniel29]

If marriage of all things must be redefined, have we let things finally go to hell in a hand basket?

Christian marriage is not redefined and this has nothing to do with what we believe is immoral. The only question is should we as the majority have the right to force our views on people who don’t share them.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[peduzzi89]

whoa whoa WHOA lil_flower_luv…

How could you possible attest to the effect of gay marriage on society? You cited one statistic to back up your point…where did this come from? Really? You’re saying the majority of suicides are adopted children of homosexuals?

Wake up and smell the coffee, dear. If you’re going to be in a real debate or discussion, be prepared to put your money where your mouth is.

Au contraire, here is an accreditted mental health website about suicide statistics. Read it if you want, but I could list dozens more and NONE of them would say that adopted children of homosexuals have the highest suicide rate.
mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=13737&cn=9

 

[PJY86]

I fail to see any good reason the state should recognize same-sex relationships as marriage and confer the same benefits on such relationships as it does marriage. That said, the American government, given its constitution, cannot make homosexual behavior illegal.

Marriage is the monogomous union between a man and a woman. It is also the beginning of a family unit, whereby new citizens are born. Therefore it is in the interest of the state to provide certain benefits to these marriages to aid them in raising as many healthy children as possible. On the other hand, homosexual relationships, by their very nature, are unable to produce and raise new and healthy citizens.

Keep in mind, this is not a question of whether or not homosexuality should be legalized. It isn’t even a question of rights; not even heterosexual marriages have a natural right to the benefits the state has chosen to give them. The question is whether or not the state has an obligation to grant benefits to homosexual unions, and I see no reason why it would be in the interest of the state to grant such benefits.

Having said that, I stress again that the state can in no way make homosexuality illegal or deny people who lean towards or practice it the same basic civil rights that all other people have. I only say that special benefits are not a basic civil right.